A hypothetical question.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Admiral Halsey

WW2 wasn't like WW1 in regards to the submarine force. If Dönitz had the 300 subs he wanted from the outset Germany would have most likely won the Battle of Atlantic. Plus the American public was super isolationist.(If the Panay incident didn't make them go to war what makes you think that a couple of accidental sinkings of American merchants would?)

To actually hurt Britain they would have had to sink HUNDREDS of American ships, not just a couple. Do the math: 300 subs, all at sea (impossible--at most 100 could have been out at a time) against a 1000 ship convoy swarming with escorts. Huge battle with spectacular success for the Germans and half the ships are sunk (highly unlikely).

Now there are no subs left to engage the next 1000 ship convoy leaving in 7 days. Even during the most spectacular success the Germans had we produced more shipping than they sank. They were destroying incredible tonnage and were losing ground horribly. Read Admiral Daniel Gallery's book on capturing the U-505. The math never worked for the Germans.

The only possible loser was Germany. Not only that but the wolfpack method itself was a fatal flaw, broadcasting the positions of every submarine on a daily basis. It was child's play to stay away from most of the submarines, so it would have been impossible to attack a 1000 ship convoy with 300 subs. They would have been scattered all over the Atlantic to be sunk, one by one, or if all together would have been easily avoided.

[Admiral Halsey]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

To actually hurt Britain they would have had to sink HUNDREDS of American ships, not just a couple. Do the math: 300 subs, all at sea (impossible--at most 100 could have been out at a time) against a 1000 ship convoy swarming with escorts. Huge battle with spectacular success for the Germans and half the ships are sunk (highly unlikely).

Now there are no subs left to engage the next 1000 ship convoy leaving in 7 days. Even during the most spectacular success the Germans had we produced more shipping than they sank. They were producing incredible tonnage and were losing ground horribly. Read Admiral Daniel Gallery's book on capturing the U-505. The math never worked for the Germans.

The only possible loser was Germany. Not only that but the wolfpack method itself was a fatal flaw, broadcasting the positions of every submarine on a daily basis. It was child's play to stay away from most of the submarines, so it would have been impossible to attack a 1000 ship convoy with 300 subs. They would have been scattered all over the Atlantic to be sunk, one by one, or if all together would have been easily avoided.

You still have one problem. Hitler had forbid any attacks on neutral shipping.(Especially American shipping.) Plus the U-Boats very nearly brought Britain to it's knees during the first "Happy time." So don't say that the U-Boat force wouldn't have defeated Britain when most every historian say that if Hitler had put more into his U-Boats the war could have turned out very different.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Admiral Halsey

You still have one problem. Hitler had forbid any attacks on neutral shipping.(Especially American shipping.) Plus the U-Boats very nearly brought Britain to it's knees during the first "Happy time." So don't say that the U-Boat force wouldn't have defeated Britain when most every historian say that if Hitler had put more into his U-Boats the war could have turned out very different.

Hitler knew that in order to have any chance to strangle Britain, he would have to sink neutral shipping. Historians base their positions on a quote from Churchill saying that the only thing he feared was the U-Boats. But what Churchill said, was said for public consumption. We cannot rely on the truth of his position, as it was a strategic ploy.

Churchill's long-range war plan was to secure victory by bringing the US into the war. The best way to do that would be to encourage Germany's use of U-Boats, and that, in fact is what he did by crying wolf(pack). I don't know why nobody has questioned the accuracy and purpose of his statement there, but somebody needs to. I say this was a classic case of misdirection used by a master of the craft. And it's still working on us today!

That is also why Churchill talked Roosevelt into the lend-lease program with all those obsolete four-stacker destroyers. It put us into undeclared war with Germany with American ships and sailors in peril. How long before a German sub, under attack from a ship it was forbidden to retaliate against said "better alive than dead" and sank one? These too were pawns in Churchill's victory plans. He didn't just have plan A. He also had plan B, C, D & E.

This included an alternate British government installed in New York City in 1938. It included cultivating a very close relationship with Roosevelt, causing him to do things forbidden by the constitution, against the laws, discovery of which would have suddenly and surely brought about Roosevelt's impeachment and conviction. Yes, Roosevelt had to break the law to save western civilization. And he threw in with the correct side! It's a miracle!

No, without sinking neutral shipping there was no way to starve Britain. A small minority of their supplies were on British bottoms. Actually threatening to succeed meant actually ensuring defeat. So Hitler pulled the trigger anyway. Just like he did in the bunker. Think about it!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by agrims

There is a consensus that had it gone on much longer, Britain would have surrendered as there was no real way out of it at the time.

Where is this consensus? Again, saying it doesn't make it so. References, please?

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Where is this consensus? Again, saying it doesn't make it so. References, please?

And what is a consensus worth, of insular scholars in the framework of historians affiliated with different universities. Their organization is one of authority, not search for the truth. Whoever presently is cock of the walk in that field controls consensus by destroying the careers of those who disagree. Same thing happens in the science community. Tow the line or get your funds strangled.

We had a consensus of opinion on how great Thomas Jefferson was, enforced by scholastic thuggery until the lid was blown off on his relationship with his slaves, relatives of his wife's family even before Thomas himself got involved. The one man with the political position and clout to destroy slavery at the birth of our nation was the one who most evilly exploited the slave system for his own profit. His own neighbor released his slaves and willed Jefferson an extraordinary sum of money (enough to buy all Jefferson's slaves and leave a good living) on the condition that Jefferson free his slaves. Jefferson refused the inheritance. Once the logjam of illegitimate authority over historical consensus was broken, so Jefferson was broken over the blatant hypocrisy of his own undeniable actions. "Master of the Mountain" is your book. Fairly written and completely devastating.

Question authority. Learn the truth for yourself. The university establishment has perverted our scientific and historical functions, turning them into medieval fiefdoms.

[BrucePartington]

Mainly Hitler wanted to quiet down the western European countries as not to repeat Germany's mistake in WWI - two war fronts. A means to an end.
Sir Winston Churchill denied him just that.

Rudolph Hess did not fly to Scotland because he was mad, as both sides claimed at the time. He flew there in an attempt at negotiating peace with the UK. Before the war both countries had a reciprocal admiration to some degree.
An interesting book on this subject is "The Hitler/Hess deception", from Martin Allen. I cannot vouch for the author's claims, but they do seem plausible.

When Hitler said "we need breathing room", he was thinking of Ukraine and its rich resources. After all he knew the concept of Geopolitics. And hence the Afrika Korps attempt at crossing the Suez, since things were starting to bog down as they draw closer to Stalingrad, the final gateway to his main goal.
And the reason why both contenders fought to last bullet, the last brick standing, for every yard that lead to the Volga.
Had Von Paulus crossed the Volga, the whole war in Europe would have had a very different outcome. USSR war machine would collapse due to loss of important industrial centres, and more importantly, due to loosing vital resources to the Germans. Oil, food, mineral resources. All things that would enable Germany to become fully autonomous -Geopolitics.

Which leads me to believe that if Hitler and Hess had succeeded in negotiating peace with the UK, Hitler would have easily bagged Ukraine. No waste of military resources in Western Europe and North Africa.

When the German forces invaded Poland in 1939, they cut "The Polish Corridor". It was called a corridor for a reason. Operation Barbarossa was the centrepiece of the whole thing.
And while we're at it, the German highways were built with the fast transfer of troops in mind.

It's all about resources, it always is.

[vanjast]

That's the way how a lot of us feel here in ZA... about Nelson Mandela ???

No action, no talk as his ANC proceeded to rape the country, kill opposition, etc.. etc.. Not a peep from him ??

No my friends,.. that realistic history, has also been distorted and hidden from your eyes. A lot of fools still believe the lie.

[Rockin Robbins]

I guess I'll be very quiet now......Take her down!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

The one man with the political position and clout to destroy slavery at the birth of our nation was the one who most evilly exploited the slave system for his own profit.

At least he felt guilty about it...or said he did.

His own neighbor released his slaves and willed Jefferson an extraordinary sum of money (enough to buy all Jefferson's slaves and leave a good living) on the condition that Jefferson free his slaves. Jefferson refused the inheritance.

In that regard Madison was no better. Little Jemmy had a friend who chastised him for not freeing his slaves. This friend (could he be the same fellow?) sold his plantation, bought a big piece of land in Kentucky and moved the entire group there, freeing his slaves and dividing up his wealth equally among all, then working the land the same as the rest of his newly-freed fellow citizens.
James Madison, by Ralph Ketcham

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by agrims

If Japan hadn't attacked the U.S. and instead had a better build up period, attacking China inward instead of spreading outward like they did, this would have put them in a good place for resources and a joint attack on Russia with Germany. This would have a two fold problem for Russia. Attack from 2 angles, and atomic weapons. Stalin was a ruthless man, but he would have been no match for atomic weapons.

Japan's problem in China was that their army was bogged down with logistical and terrain difficulties and the war there was unwinnable without the resources, metals and oil Japan purchased from abroad. With every advance and atrocity in China those supplies were being further boycotted by the Western Allies.

When the Pacific War broke out, the Japanese allocated just 11 divisions to the conquest of the Dutch, British and American possessions in the Pacific out of an army of over 50 divisions. It was all they could spare. Most of the rest remained bogged down in a vast land war in Asia that Japan simply couldn't win without those conquered resources they could never really fully exploit. This supports the view that China was a quagmire that kept the Japanese from deploying their full strength to the Pacific.

[Rockin Robbins]

Jefferson's neighbor knew that just freeing his slaves in Virginie would cause problems, probably involving the newly freed slaves being rounded up and reenslaved or worse. So took all his slaves on a boat north across the Ohio River. On the other shore he simply announced that every man, woman and child was now a free human being and that they could accompany him if they wished and he would treat them as equals.

The result was the founding of the state of Indiana, and he was first governor. Jefferson declined to follow his example. Two opportunities (of many) for Jefferson to show the meaning of the words "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." But now he was older and knew better... No wonder Marquis de Lafayette disowned him. Jefferson was a despicable human being who freely and knowingly chose the dark side.

[Admiral Halsey]

When did this thread go from hypothetical WW2 scenarios to talking about Jefferson's slaves?

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Admiral Halsey

When did this thread go from hypothetical WW2 scenarios to talking about Jefferson's slaves?

Would you believe.......cosmic rays?

I really need to get back to my infiltration of Rabaul to salvage my pitiful career. Going deep....

[Admiral Halsey]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Would you believe.......cosmic rays?

I really need to get back to my infiltration of Rabaul to salvage my pitiful career. Going deep....

That is easier then you think if it's early war.(I normally only find a minelayer with no depth charge racks guarding the entrance.)

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Admiral Halsey

I was reading the book "The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" and it got me thinking about a couple of things. Like what if the Musashi hadn't been sunk or if Kurita pushed through Taffy 3

Kurita was not on a suicide mission, so retreating seems to me to have been a very good move given what he knew about the circumstances.

Imagine how it plays out if he stays and pushes through. An hour to regain command and control of his force, four hours to do a thorough job busting up command, control and cohesion of the Leyte invasion fleet. In that time, he winds up trapped between Halsey's CVs and BBs, Turner's BBs and CVEs, and can't sink enough of the invasion TF to substantially change the outcome. So he loses everything. Sinks maybe a dozen light vessels of the invasion task force, or else sinks maybe a dozen vessels in Taffy 2 and 3.

Doesn't change the outcome of the war much. If anything Nimitz and company have less heavy Japanese surface units to hunt or worry about in 1945.