Germany and France vow to strengthen ties

[Kloef]

France and Germany have "a very special responsibility, we form the heart of Europe", he said.

Translation: 'we are living the dream that we think we own Europe'

Maybe they should think about working together to dismantle all those rusty nuclear plants on the French border, the Germans allrady shut theirs, what about France? I mean they allready know eachothers borders like no other country ánd it would be really nice to aviod this nuclear disaster then wait for it to happen, right France?

And don't worry, the rich countries will pay as they allways have, n'est pas?

[STEED]

So France gets to keep twisting German balls...that's to say what's left of them.

Germany I do hope you know if Italy goes to financial hell this will have a major impact on Frances second largest bank who has a lot of banking with Italy and the result could bring France down which it turn will hit the next domino that being Germany.

Jim, no such chance of the UK leaving the EU what so ever...unless there is a revolution and I can not see that coming in my life time.

[Kloef]

2 rats working together how to abandon ship when the time comes, they talk about strengthening eachother while the rest of Europe is falling apart..well it's not that we saw it coming is it?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by joea

Still stuck on this northern industrious folk paying for the lazy southerners eh? One who is so critical of the falsehoods we are all fed.

I see it is still popular to simply accuse us evil Germans and expect us to pay for you eternally, while denying the responsibility of your own people for your own state and your own corrupted system.

Well, already the ancient Egypts called the Greek "their spoilt little children".

If you want to accuse anyone, then accuse your own citizens who by overwhelming majority willed to be accomplice in a corrupt and rotten system as long as they benefitted from it, and accuse your own elites and politicians who are at war with your people since I do not long how long. Not before thiese ways did not function anymore you started to revolt a bit. Instead of accusing others for running their states better than you run yours, you should see them as an example by which you could learn how to run your own state. Because at the heart of the Greek problem lies that the Greek people never have learned how to run a state, and replaced it with corruption, bribery and nepotism. That worked because as long as your country had a geostrategic importance and thus was important for superior countries, they willed to pay for your deficits that you created by your ways. First they external thrad was the Osdman em,pire, later it was the USSR. But you do not have that important geostrategic meaning to offer anymore, your geostrategic position is not that important anymore after the cold war ended. Your favorite trading item - geostrategic position - does not sell anymore. You now face the consequences of your rotten system in full, without others automatically jumping to your side to compensate your deficits. So now you better change your ways, and learn how to run your banana-republic, - or you will forever stay in the swamp you are in now.

Not before you accept responsibility for your own fate, will your situation ever improve. Look at Finland, they had very serious financial and economic troubles, and if they would have done like Greece does today, they still would have them, and would be dependent, and would have no reason to be proud. But they did not do like that, but spit in their hands, tightened their belts, and got to work on their economy and state. today, they are well off, and I have a damn amount of respect for what the current generation of Fins has achieved. And I have strong sympathy for any Fin now complaining why Greece expects to be given a free ride at the expense of Finland and other billions-net-payers - when Finland achieved what it did by its own work and responsibility and sacrifice.

BTW, if others pay billions and billions for you and ruins his own future, while you still tell them forged statistics and lies, the last thing you may want to do is to even accuse them and attacking them over and over again. Responsible for your misery in the first is - not us, but you. And we accept high damages to ourselves just to keep you floating. And for that we get attacks in return. It is this attitude that has many Germans showing Greece the middlefinger only anymore.

No, Joea, I completely leave you in the rain over this.

[Kloef]

Europe should kick Greece out so we can look at the concequences for the others that need to be kicked out..good riddance.

And as far as Greece goes, what Skybird says..because i will have to pay contribution for the rest of my life while they sit back and hold their hand up

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Was it ever going to end any other way?
As I said to the chaps on TS last night, you can't get a group of countries that have spent pretty much their entire histories beating each other senseless and suddenly expect them to put their differences aside and not put their own nation first. The Euro was doomed to fail from the start, not because of finances, or not just because of it, but because of human nature. We're just not ready for that level of co-ordination yet, heck I mean look at the UN and the tangled inoperative mess that that has become from the good intentions of post-World War II. National pride and motives will seep into any political agenda.

I agree....and I'd still like Britain to leave.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Kloef

while they sit back and hold their hand up

Maybe not that simplistic in the individual family and household. But the Greek state is a total and complete mess. I would even ask whether it really is a functional state in modern understanding. However, as long as the Greek population does not raise against the criminal and corrupted elites and make short process with them, I do not see any reason why they should deserve any form of solidarity. Instead. since years always the same liars and cheaters and gangster get elected and send to Brussel to get more money.

But the fight of the elites against the people seems to be a red trail throughout Greek history. And I doubt I live long enough to finally see them coming to terms with the modern present, sorting their state and send their corrupt elite as well as their own corrupt mentality to hell where both belong. The overblown Greek bureaucracy already was famous in the Roman empire, because it helps to deceive over the real dimension of the nepotism and bribery haunting the place.

Young Greeks with good education who are well-trained craftsmen and academics, I would like to see being welcomed in Germany. We could really use them, and we should help to make them feel home here so that they stay for life. Demographics and aging of society force us into the defensive, we need qualified migrants willing to integrate. Same is true for the Spaniards. I do not know to what degree bureaucratic realities in Germany really are that inviting to foreigners, but these two groups belong to those that really should be welcomed by us. Criterion must be qualification, willingness to fully integrate (which imo is an obligation to provide by any migrant in any country he moves to) and the realistic perspective of turning into net tax payers instead of remaining to be net wellfare receivers (means the qualification of the migrants must be in need in the hosting country).

[Kloef]

But Skybird, it has been common practise for alot of European youngsters with a high education level to seek out their oppertunities all over Europe, that's nothing new..

It's just a matter of being 'attractive' enough to get those people to live in your country, and stay.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I agree....and I'd still like Britain to leave.

Ideally, so would I, but if we left tomorrow our economy would just implode, we're too interlinked with it. What should be happening now, if we wanted to pull out of the EU in the future is a reinvestment in our primary and secondary industries, things like Farms, factories, mines, enough to make us as near as self-sufficient as possible so that the high tariffs don't wreck us...and even then it might not be enough since the City of London has played itself into a strong position within the EU markets and might not survive being extracted from them.
This may come about without our control, I expect, personally, that if the EU does fall, then France and Germany will set up a new EU with tighter controls. Whether we'll join that, or indeed even be invited to join that, is another matter entirely, and given the mistrust we've shown France and Germany, our reluctance to put forward into the Euro, the "We're in, we're out" attitude our government has had depending on what government is in power, means I don't think that they would invite us, just as they were reluctant to with the EU, which could freeze us out of European markets which will stifle our trade opportunities.
Then there's Eastern Europe which is a whole difference kettle of fish and may even set up its own version of the EU which works differently, and Russia will have its own version with some of the former Pact states which are still on good terms with it, Belarus for example.
It's all going to be a bit of a mess, so in one respect I can understand why so many governments are so desperate to keep the Euro afloat because if it collapses, then it's going to be a very turbulent ride for the whole world (including America), however continually propping the whole thing up may just be a case of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic...

[Jimbuna]

The question I struggle to find an answer for is....currently 40% of our trade is with the EU, so would leaving create further opportunities for trade with other countries and just as importantly, could the EU write off so much trade?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Kloef

But Skybird, it has been common practise for alot of European youngsters with a high education level to seek out their oppertunities all over Europe, that's nothing new..

It's just a matter of being 'attractive' enough to get those people to live in your country, and stay.

That simple it is not. Germany in the past feared to be linked to the racial issues of the Third Reich and the "Selektion" of Jews at the gates to KZs if it would dare to be discriminating "good" from "not so mush wanted" migrants. Other nations like the US have much lesser self-restrictions to discriminate according to their own interest, and so a good amount of brainy imigrants and qualified people ended up not in Germany, but in other places - leaving many social wellfare receivers coming to us instead, people who could not make it to the preferred nations due to their low social status or lacking education. Additionally in the past Germ,an bureaucracy was such that foreign qualified migrants faced more problems than necessary. Some years ago we changed laws, and a wave of top-computer experts form India swapped in. But many of them have left again, not feeling well over here, and the request by such highly qualified employees has faded again.

After the war, there came a wave of guest workers from Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia anbd Turkey to Germany. Many Spaniards and Italians meanwhile have moved back, because they did not want to stay forever anyway, and those who stick with us in germany fit in nicely and integrated, and are indeed now part of German life over here. Many Yugos move dback after the wars fade don the balkans, some stayed, also fitting in. Only the Turks came from beginning on to stay forever, and never planned to move back, the first generation was sent by Ankara and came from Anatolia, the most poor areas in Turkey, and one can understand that they do not wish to ever move back to a life so poor and miserable that it reminds of that of slave farmers in the 18th or even 17th century.

Last decade, the trend of the 50s and 60s reversed, Germans found no jobs over here, and first dsicovered the possibility to work in other countries , but close to the border, whcih is a common model still in the Danish-German border area, the border to Holland, France, and some time later Poland as well. Some Germans moved over to stay in the other nation and build their existence there. But more guest workers - this time German guest workers moved to Italy and especially Spain, these often were craftsmen who were liked due to their "German quality work" and German "punctuality: Also, especially in Spain, they were liked because they were stupid enough to even work in the heat hours of Siesta around midday. This was before the financial crisis broke out.

In the past two or three years we noticed an increasing stream of young migrants from Greece and Spain now moving at our direction again. Since decreasing population numbers and falling numbers of young Germans make themselves felt on the German labor market, we indeed could need them well if they are qualified. Language schools report that the demand for courses has exploded in the past 24 months, and again they say the major share of their new students are Spaniards and Greeks, mainly academics, if I recall it correctly. I think Portuguese also form a bigger group than other nationalities, and Poles.

[Skybird]

Oh look, newsflash just in: the Greek government has lied to Europe once again, the deficits in its budget calculations have been found by the Troika to be twice as big as Samaras has claimed. Here is little doubt that in Greece the furor against the Troika will reach new heights. Not Samaras is guilty - no, the Troika is guilty: for having made known the cheat.

Meanwhile Portugal has announced to abandon its strict economical consolidation policy due to pressure from the street. Bill goes to Germany, Finland, Austria, Holland once again.

And the ECB wants to lever the bailout guarantee by a factor of four, then reaching beyond 2 trillion. Who is to guarantee for the risks and will need to pay (because the guarantee case will become true sooner or later)?= Well, you can figure.

The thimbleriggers march in the streets again, and madness dances inside the houses.

[Kloef]

I agree, Germany is still considered less favourable for immigrant because of the past.

Although many Europeans have left the past to rest there are still some pretty strong feelings, especially in countries like Greece and Poland.

But i think the role and importance of that is overestimated. Germany also has alot to offer for alot of people and they would willingly put their difference aside if they can trade it with a decent future, that's just human nature.

[Kloef]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Oh look, newsflash just in: the Greek government has lied to Europe once again, the deficits in its budget calculations have been found by the Troika to be twice as big as Samaras has claimed. Here is little doubt that in Greece the furor against the Troika will reach new heights. Not Samaras is guilty - no, the Troika is guilty: for having made known the cheat.

Meanwhile Portugal has announced to abandon its strict economical consolidation policy due to pressure from the street. Bill goes to Germany, Finland, Austria, Holland once again.

And the ECB wants to lever the bailout guarantee by a factor of four, then reaching beyond 2 trillion. Who is to guarantee for the risks and will need to pay (because the guarantee case will become true sooner or later)?= Well, you can figure.

The thimbleriggers march in the streets again, and madness dances inside the houses.

Here we go again.....

Time to kick Greece out!

Saw this comming, as we all did they just keep on lying!

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

You are aware that a lot of Eurpoean countries which are struck by the self created crisis are trying to bleed us white? They are demanding money, money money and more money and who would be a better candidate for paying than those guys who lost the war?
Actually our chancellor has caved in to most of their demands. We are killing our own budget to try to help others (and I say to try because I don't think that Greece can actually be saved...). So where is that panzer like power you are speaking of?

I also know a few nations "cooked the books" to seem favorable for membership.

I am not holding Germany 100% responsible for it, they are trying to fix it.

Not nice being the big kid on the block? You get blamed for doing, and get blamed for doing nothing.

Welcome to what America go through.