Muslim Cleric Plans White House Protest in Attempt to Spread Sharia Law in America

Any more rethorical innocent question I can answer for you?

That doesn't even address the question let alone answer it

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Completely wrong Takeda, I did not say I would ban Islam or go after those who hold that belief system.I did however answer the question AND explain why we should not have anyone that subscribes to that faith in a critical position such as Congress, Presidency or SCOTUS.I did not say ban them from holding office, I simply made the argument for WHY they should not and strongly believe Congressman Ellision is a prime example of what we could not afford to have.Luckily Ellis is a congressmen from a relatively minor district and as far as I can tell has no real clout other than his vote, which is too much for someone with his ties and beliefs.There is a line between being tolerant of someone's differing views and allowing people who's core beliefs contradict the very foundation of your nation fanagle their way into power over time, which can lead to the ruin of a nation.Imagine having a muslim supreme court justice who could say freedom of religion extends far enough so that sharia courts such as those in the UK is acceptable in the US? Sounds far fetched but then again it prob did once upon a time in the UK.The apathy shown by many towards the threat of Islam, even after 9/11 amazes me, always will.

No, Bubblehead, I am correct. You wish to exclude individuals from the democratic process based upon their religious beliefs; something antithetical to the foundations upon which this nation was built. What amazes me is that you see yourself as just for wishing this. Once again, you seek to preserve American democracy by destroying it. I only wish that you could see that fact.

[gimpy117]

Just another case of fundamentalists wanting to push their beliefs into law. The Christian Religious Right has been doing it in america for years. Now Islam wants a turn sounds like.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

No, Bubblehead, I am correct. You wish to exclude individuals from the democratic process based upon their religious beliefs; something antithetical to the foundations upon which this nation was built. What amazes me is that you see yourself as just for wishing this. Once again, you seek to preserve American democracy by destroying it. I only wish that you could see that fact.

How can you not see the danger of having a muslim in a critical position in our government or courts? Islam's teachings are in direct contradiction to the Constitution and our way of life here.My god man, what will it take for people like you to wake up?

Say the American people are dumb enough to elect obama again in 2012 and one of the elder justices do not make it another four years.Obama under the guise of being "open" and "tolerant" with no fear of consequences due to not having to run for office again, appoints an open, practicing muslim to the bench and he is somehow confirmed. You would be okay with this? A lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land which makes decisions that affect everyone in our society which are almost irreversible.You would really be okay with a muslim holding such a position? Same thing if FDR had nominated a Nazi to the court.

I do not seek to destroy the republic, I mean to protect it for everyone. Notice I do not want to ban islam or even put a law on the books preventing someone who is a muslim from running for office or being appointed etc, that would be unconstitutional.However, I do believe we must keep our guard up and not elect people or allow their elevation to positions of power if they follow this dangerous set of beliefs that as I mentioned, contradict the constitution and what our nation stands for.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

How can you not see the danger of having a muslim in a critical position in our government or courts? Islam's teachings are in direct contradiction to the Constitution and our way of life here.My god man, what will it take for people like you to wake up?

And what will it take for people like you to realize that eliminating constitutional rights for certain segments of the population results in the same sort of damage to American democracy that Sharia law poses?

Say the American people are dumb enough to elect obama again in 2012 and one of the elder justices do not make it another four years.Obama under the guise of being "open" and "tolerant" with no fear of consequences due to not having to run for office again, appoints an open, practicing muslim to the bench and he is somehow confirmed. You would be okay with this? A lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land which makes decisions that affect everyone in our society and are almost irreversible.You would really be okay with a muslim holding such a position? Same thing if FDR had nominated a Nazi to the court.

Polemics. We're talking about denying the rights of people to run for and hold office.

I do not seek to destroy the republic, I mean to protect it for everyone.

Except Muslims.

Notice I do not want to ban islam....

I didn't say you did.

or even put a law on the books preventing someone who is a muslim from running for office or being appointed etc, that would be unconstitutional.

Yes, it would be unconstitutional, but that is exactly what you have been saying, and it is why we are having this argument right now.

However, I do believe we must keep our guard up and not elect people or allow their elevation to positions of power if they follow this dangerous set of beliefs that as I mentioned, contradict the constitution and what our nation stands for.

That's not what you said before. If it was, I would have left you alone. Instead, you said that we should not have anyone in office who subscribes to the Islamic faith. Not that we should not vote for them, but that the should not be permitted to run.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

And what will it take for people like you to realize that eliminating constitutional rights for certain segments of the population results in the same sort of damage to American democracy that Sharia law poses?



Polemics. We're talking about denying the rights of people to run for and hold office.



Except Muslims.



I didn't say you did.



Yes, it would be unconstitutional, but that is exactly what you have been saying, and it is why we are having this argument right now.



That's not what you said before. If it was, I would have left you alone. Instead, you said that we should not have anyone in office who subscribes to the Islamic faith. Not that we should not vote for them, but that the should not be permitted to run.

Okay, I was not saying in the OP we should actually pass any laws to prevent muslims from obtaining office, nominations to certain positions etc, because that would be unconstitutional.I was saying that it would be a terrible thing to have them in any position of power so we should do what we can via legal means to prevent it, I did not state that but I did not say we should pass a law to prevent it either, so assumed someone reading would understand I was not talking legislation etc.There are constitutional methods such as making sure Senators do no confirm one if nominated to SCOTUS, not voting for muslim candidates etc. Absolutely constitutional and nothing wrong with preventing it via those means.Not a race thing etc but it's because someone who holds beliefs that opposite of our constitution has no place in the governance of our society.They can live here, pray to their own special invisible man in the sky five times a day etc but they in no way should ever hold power over me or my fellow citizens.They want sharia etc, they need to move elsewhere.

I would like to say children of illegal immigrants born here are not citizens but according to the constitution as is, they are.I actually ended up defending birthright citizenship of illegal immigrant's children a few weeks back because I set my own opinion aside and argued on the side of the constitution against a colleague who was trying to twist the text in an intellectually dishonest manner.Hopefully we can amend the constitution sometime to stop this but until then, they are citizens if born here.I don't think muslims should be eligible to hold public office in the US but my opinion does not ovveride the constitution, no one's should.Get what I am saying? I was explaining why they should not be in any power when asked why it would be a bad thing, that is all.

[breadcatcher101]

I wouldn't have a problem banning muslims from America period.

We allow freedom of worship, even no worship at all if you prefer, but to allow a religion that has no tolorance of others not of their faith to gain a foothold simply has no logic.

We have a welcome mat at our front door but that doesn't mean I want Charlie Manson walking in.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by breadcatcher101

I wouldn't have a problem banning muslims from America period.

We allow freedom of worship, even no worship at all if you prefer, but to allow a religion that has no tolorance of others not of their faith to gain a foothold simply has no logic.

Yes, ban those non-tolerant types.

[krashkart]

I have this feeling that Sharia law in the US would prove difficult to enforce, even if somehow it made it's way into our laws. But I'll err on the side of caution - it could happen. What might be good for the system is a touch of sane xenophobia somewhere in office, to help counterbalance the current practice of brown-nosing we've seen. I'm not talking like a full-blown bug-eyed Islamophobe, just a handful of people who can help keep things in check so that the government doesn't go overboard with wearing its heart on its sleeve. Mr. Nice Guy is a good thing to be, but there are plenty of Not-So-Nice Guys out there that want to give us all a very close shave (wink wink).

Meanwhile, it would be a very good thing for the West to cut its losses and leave the Arab world alone so that it can flourish on its own, without our incessant meddling. We better figure out how to solve our energy problems without screwing over an entire people and their way of life. They have every right to hate us. Time to evolve from that selfish nonsense.

This cleric, for whatever he is worth, can go straight back to his country of origin and practice his strange ways there. But he got his point across to me at least: Force your ways upon us, and we will return the favor. You do not like our way? Tough. That's what I draw from it.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Yes, ban those non-tolerant types.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by breadcatcher101

I wouldn't have a problem banning muslims from America period.

We allow freedom of worship, even no worship at all if you prefer, but to allow a religion that has no tolorance of others not of their faith to gain a foothold simply has no logic.

We have a welcome mat at our front door but that doesn't mean I want Charlie Manson walking in.

I agree with you on islam, but it would unconstitutional to ban a religion, so have to side with the constitution.Slippery slope also, ban one religion, 50 years later the shoe could be on the other foot, next thing you know some wacked out lib is pushing to ban christianity etc after something happens.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

Have faith in the Melting pot!

I have faith in the metling pot. I also have faith in the sound foundations of free-market capitalism and the rule of constitutional law and limited government. Granted, these foundations are not unshakeable, but they are very difficult to destroy entirely.

I would ask everyone to take a step back from the issue of Sharia Law for a moment and consider the many challenges the US has faced from supporters of one extreme ideal or another in the past. There were more than few times when communism was embraced by significant numbers of American citizens as the way forward, but the movement faltered and ultimately failed again and again until communism and the derivatives thereof completely fell apart on the international level. It's still around, but nobody takes it seriously aside from some idealists. The latter goes for racial or theological supremacists of any kind, foreign nationalists, US nationalists, and just about everybody else who refuses to get into the pot.

Any group that is forced to rely upon mutually beneficial exchange and adherence to laws supporting the same for its existence will eventually break up due to competition and interdependence. Money and prosperity have no time for the rantings of extremists when there are things to be built or services to provide or families or personages to raise and support, which helps explain why most Muslims in the US could best be described as Islamic Lax-tremists, just as most Christians have become in comparison to their ancestors of even a few generations ago.

Having said that, I am not implying that we should ignore the activities of extremists. If history has taught us anything in this country, it is that the determination of the few can overcome the will of the many, at least to some extent. This country is full of stupid laws that serve special interests or particular groups because the rest of us were too busy to notice or didn't care or never noticed the consequences. In that respect our ideals have failed us. Even constitutional law has been twisted, one way or the other, depending upon one's point of view. However, that is not to say that we could be easily overcome by a nationalization of Sharia law.

Whatever our political leanings, we can all agree that imposition of religion or forced lack thereof is a crime of the state. That this topic is even news is evidence of that fact. This is even more true when one considers that so many have such vociferous opinions when the fact of the matter is that Sharia law would be governed under civil arrangements (i.e. both parties agree).

Even then, I daresay that most of us would find the notion abhorrent. What of the will of those governed by such laws? Is their consent real or forced or formed by their upbringing? How can we make sure that the involved parties are making the best decision, for themselves, for others, for us? It is in these kinds of questions that the strength of America is found. However vehemently we may disagree upon the means, generation after empowered generation, we still seek that which is right for ourselves and others through the overriding concept of freedom in the way we deem most effective. That is something that fundamentalist Islam will have a great deal of difficulty overcoming.

[nikimcbee]

They really need to start in San Fran first.

This cleric, for whatever he is worth

Its Anjem choudray for gods sake, why does anyone even give the insignificant ignorant prick any publicity at all?
He has less following and less religious credentials that that idiot pastor who wanted a burn a koran day.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Yes, ban those non-tolerant types.

Not always so easy to do so