Dick O'Kane lead angle question - Page 3

timmyg00 · 12-01-10, 12:10 PM

We must all be guilty of plagiarizing the fathers of modern geometry for daring to use their principles in our attack techniques without attribution. Aww, sorry about that Euclid, sorry Pythagoras... every time i shoot a torpedo, I'll pay you royalties. Where do I send the check?

Surely it’s not possible that several people came up with the same ideas independently, unbeknownst to each other, and published them at different times. No! It MUST be plagiarism!!

I can’t wait to see this evidence. This is gonna be good. I’m about due for some good entertainment.

greyrider · 12-01-10, 03:10 PM

rockin robbins!
got' cha

i have the evidence right here on my computer desktop, in subsim format, dated 1/2/2006. someone made a tactical folder from the old sh3 days, of all the available tactics up until that date,
in it was a couple pieces of my work. it is in one of those pieces of work that shows the point and shoot technique, publicly on these forums, with reference to the bearing/speed charts, that you call gutted's, date 1/2/2006,
before you where even here as a member.

you have 48 hours to admit to Plagiarism! to be a man, to offer an apology to me, if you do, i will not post it, and i will forgive you, if you do not, i will not forgive you, and then i will post it!
i will come back on saturday morning to either accept your apology, or to expose you and gutted for Plagiarism!
after that, you will be known as a Plagiarist!
your choice now!

I'm goin' down · 12-01-10, 03:24 PM

As Admiral Halsey was told by his chief of staff during the Battle of Leyete Gulf, when he lost it after reading Nimitz' terse message about the world wondering about his fleet's whereabouts, "Pull yourself together." Sheesh. I have been reading about the 8010 method to give you benefit of the doubt. Your videos have been deleted from the download site. There is controversy re the validity of the 10 degrees Aob in your formula. I do not understand the math you use due to lack of a good education baclkground in that subject. I would enjoy watching a good video of your method. (Now I am dying to see one.) Seeing is believing. The best way to understand something is to hear about it, read about it, and visualize it.

Robbins critiques of the 8010 method appear made in good faith. Somehow you have turned his critiques into a claim that he lifted your ideas. I note that many other captains took a position similar to his, but haven't found any so far that defend your position.

I suggest you make a video. If it is too long, I am sure another captain can break down your copy so it can be viewed. You might even find one or two captains impressed to the point where they make editing suggestions to enhance is understanding. I know that gutted had an excellent three part video explaining the Solution Solver program, and something similar would be interesting to watch.

Oh, yea. Don't keep us in suspense for two days!! Post the stuff now, so we can begin to digest it, respond if necessary, call you the Albert Einstein of the forum if appropriate, or call the Happy Dale Sanitarium (where the two aunts of Carey Grant were sent in Arsenic and Old Lace. They has been poisoning guests.) and tell them to ready a bed for a new patient.

razark · 12-01-10, 03:48 PM

I have evidence right here on my computer that you are not, in fact, a human. It shows that you are indeed a highly trained hamster. I give you until Saturday at noon to apologize for misleading the subsim community.

I will not actually show anyone my evidence, y'all will just have to take my word that I am right and you are a hamster.

Oh, and if there is evidence on subsim to anything, I'm sure you can post a link to it for everyone to verify. Otherwise, you are just making baseless accusations for your own purposes.

What exactly do you get out of it? Even if RR were to admit to directly copying your work, so what? Your attitude in this and the 8010 thread are horrid. RR has been helpful, you call people stupid for not falling in line behind you. RR teaches, you incite. Which one are people going to credit with helping them to learn?

Get over yourself.

I'm goin' down · 12-01-10, 03:59 PM

I prefer to hold off taking sides until we see the "evidence" supporting greyrider's claims. He is obviously upset and taking this personally. If he is incorrect, we can deal with it at the appropriate time. If he is correct, he can be chided for his tactics, again, at the appropriate time. I can wait the two days, but prefer he posts sooner rather than later. Who knows, perhaps he has something to show us that is meaningful? He wants his forum. Let's let him have it.

timmyg00 · 12-01-10, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razark

I have evidence right here on my computer that you are not, in fact, a human. It shows that you are indeed a highly trained hamster. I give you until Saturday at noon to apologize for misleading the subsim community.

I will not actually show anyone my evidence, y'all will just have to take my word that I am right and you are a hamster.

Oh, and if there is evidence on subsim to anything, I'm sure you can post a link to it for everyone to verify. Otherwise, you are just making baseless accusations for your own purposes.

What exactly do you get out of it? Even if RR were to admit to directly copying your work, so what? Your attitude in this and the 8010 thread are horrid. RR has been helpful, you call people stupid for not falling in line behind you. RR teaches, you incite. Which one are people going to credit with helping them to learn?

Get over yourself.

Perfectly said in all respects.

Not only that, but MAN, geometry is geometry... i don't think you can steal that from someone else. Just because someone reinvents the wheel doesn't mean it's stolen. Unless you find your car on blocks the next morning.

TG

I'm goin' down · 12-01-10, 05:01 PM

Here is the thread I think greyrider is talking about. You can locate it by searching his posts.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...96&postcount=1

It is pretty long, and I did go through it in some detail. It looks like he wrote a tutorial for SH3 on sonar only attacks. It did not see anything on point and shoot or 8010. Maybe it is the wrong post?

Post script: I found a reference in greyrider's old posts to a tactical folder, but it is not available on Rapidshare now. He references the tactical folder above, which he has located apparently. He will have to post it, I think, as I cannot locate it.

Dignan · 12-01-10, 05:47 PM

Maybe I'm missing greyrider's point here but it is my understanding that all RR has ever done with the Dick O'Kane method and other constant bearing techniques is create easy to follow tutorials for others to learn from. I don't believe he ever took credit for inventing the tactic. Surely we all know that the real sub captain's of WWII developed these strategies.

And after all......it's only a game. No one is making money off this. Just having fun.

I'm goin' down · 12-01-10, 06:03 PM

If everyone is having fun, then Greyrider would probalby agree that this is a LOVEFEST. (Something tells me it is not the right description...)

General Tso · 12-01-10, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

First, let's get the terminology straight so I know what you are trying to say.

The Stadimeter is on the upper right side of the screen and contains the three Attack Dials.

The PK is on the upper left side of the screen. You hit the PK button on the left side of the screen and it turns red, indicating that the PK is activated.

There are two dials on the TDC (upper left side of the screen). One is the ships' dials screen, and the other deals with torpedo speed settings/torpedo depth settings. We are discussing the ships' dials screen and not the torpedo speed settings/torpedo depth settings screen.

You are saying, I think, that you enter speed, aob and range via the appropriate Attack Dials. Next, activate the PK. As the target closes you check your Attack Dial settings for accuracy and refine them as necessary. This classic manual targeting. Here is your twist. Before you fire, you move your scope to the particular part of the target you wish to blow up, reset range on the Attack Dial without turning off the PK, and fire. According to your post, you hit the part of the target that you are aiming for, such as its stack by way of example. I have not done this, but I assume when you point the scope at the stack and click the range button on the Attack Dial (upper right side of screen, it adjusts the torpedo angle appropriately. You can see the adjustment, if there is one, on the ships' dials screen on the TDC (upper left screen) at the moment you click on the range button to send range (Attack Dial on the upper right.) to the TDC. All you are doing, I believe, is refining (adjusting) the lead angle based upon a new firing bearing.

I usually don't do this, but maybe it is a final adjustment to the firing solution that increases the odds of a successful impact. If I have restated your post accurately, let me know the range you are firing at and having success.

Your description is correct with a couple of exceptions.

First the TDC data entry tool is in the upper right corner of the screen. This tool is used for entering target speed, AOB, range, and bearing. The stadimeter is used to find the range to target. when you click on the proper button a second image of the ship appears and you line it up at the proper spot to find the range. On a real submarine I belive the stadimeter was a prisim located in the periscope housing.

Second when I am ready to fire I DO NOT set the range I just set the bearing. If my target is set up properly in the TDC then the PK is keeping the proper range for the center of the ship which is close enough.

So far this method has worked for me out to about 2400 yards with a AOB between 45 and 135 degrees. I haven't had a chance to try any longer shot and most of my shots have been from 1000 - 1200 yards with the AOB closer to 90 degrees.

If this is a new method and people are interested in it maybe I should start a new thread and go over it step by step.

General Tso · 12-01-10, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish40

Please guys, let's not get out of hand here. It could be just an innocent mix up.

@ General Tso: As far as I understand it, the DO method dose not use the PK at all. According to the tutorial, the PK is never turned on.

In real life Dick O'Kane used the PK so that's good enough for me.

I'm goin' down · 12-01-10, 08:23 PM

I stand corrected. I meant to say you clicked on bearing. re the new thread, I don't know what you should do.

General Tso · 12-01-10, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I stand corrected. I meant to say you clicked on bearing. re the new thread, I don't know what you should do.

I was concerned that our talk about the O'Kane method was interrupting the LOVEFEST but that seems to have died down, so I guess a new thread isn't needed.

I'm goin' down · 12-01-10, 08:56 PM

if greyrider posts here rather than in a new thread, as I suggested, things will get confusing quickly.

tomoose · 12-01-10, 09:12 PM

I couldn't agree more. I've never seen RR post the "Rockin' Robin Method" which would give some validity to Greyrider's accusations. RR has always posted the "Dick O'Kane" method and has always referred to the sub skippers themselves as well as indicating other players methods or tweaks. How that can be seen as plagiarism is beyond me.

As you so rightly pointed out, it is only a game and noone's "profits" are being ripped off etc.

I would say RR's only "flaw" would be that he calls 'em as he sees 'em and doesn't pull any punches. I for one appreciate that but some people I guess, do not.

12-01-10, 12:10 PM	#31
timmyg00 中国水兵 Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts, USA Posts: 282 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	We must all be guilty of plagiarizing the fathers of modern geometry for daring to use their principles in our attack techniques without attribution. Aww, sorry about that Euclid, sorry Pythagoras... every time i shoot a torpedo, I'll pay you royalties. Where do I send the check? Surely it’s not possible that several people came up with the same ideas independently, unbeknownst to each other, and published them at different times. No! It MUST be plagiarism!! I can’t wait to see this evidence. This is gonna be good. I’m about due for some good entertainment. __________________ ET1/SS, SSN-760 USSVI Marblehead Base (MA) *Naval Historical Sites - Photo Galleries*

12-01-10, 03:10 PM	#32
greyrider Watch Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: massachusetts Posts: 334 Downloads: 237 Uploads: 0	rockin robbins! got' cha i have the evidence right here on my computer desktop, in subsim format, dated 1/2/2006. someone made a tactical folder from the old sh3 days, of all the available tactics up until that date, in it was a couple pieces of my work. it is in one of those pieces of work that shows the point and shoot technique, publicly on these forums, with reference to the bearing/speed charts, that you call gutted's, date 1/2/2006, before you where even here as a member. you have 48 hours to admit to Plagiarism! to be a man, to offer an apology to me, if you do, i will not post it, and i will forgive you, if you do not, i will not forgive you, and then i will post it! i will come back on saturday morning to either accept your apology, or to expose you and gutted for Plagiarism! after that, you will be known as a Plagiarist! your choice now! __________________ Her gun crew had guts, however, for from her canting bow came a half dozen well-aimed rounds. How they pointed and trained their gun on that tilting platform will long remain a wonder, and their dedication in keeping up the fire until they went under would be a matter of pride to any nation. O'Kane, Richard. Clear the Bridge!: The War Patrols of the U.S.S. Tang

12-01-10, 03:24 PM	#33
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	greyrider As Admiral Halsey was told by his chief of staff during the Battle of Leyete Gulf, when he lost it after reading Nimitz' terse message about the world wondering about his fleet's whereabouts, "Pull yourself together." Sheesh. I have been reading about the 8010 method to give you benefit of the doubt. Your videos have been deleted from the download site. There is controversy re the validity of the 10 degrees Aob in your formula. I do not understand the math you use due to lack of a good education baclkground in that subject. I would enjoy watching a good video of your method. (Now I am dying to see one.) Seeing is believing. The best way to understand something is to hear about it, read about it, and visualize it. Robbins critiques of the 8010 method appear made in good faith. Somehow you have turned his critiques into a claim that he lifted your ideas. I note that many other captains took a position similar to his, but haven't found any so far that defend your position. I suggest you make a video. If it is too long, I am sure another captain can break down your copy so it can be viewed. You might even find one or two captains impressed to the point where they make editing suggestions to enhance is understanding. I know that gutted had an excellent three part video explaining the Solution Solver program, and something similar would be interesting to watch. Oh, yea. Don't keep us in suspense for two days!! Post the stuff now, so we can begin to digest it, respond if necessary, call you the Albert Einstein of the forum if appropriate, or call the Happy Dale Sanitarium (where the two aunts of Carey Grant were sent in Arsenic and Old Lace. They has been poisoning guests.) and tell them to ready a bed for a new patient. Last edited by I'm goin' down; 12-02-10 at 06:27 PM.

12-01-10, 03:48 PM	#34
razark Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,731 Downloads: 393 Uploads: 12	I have evidence right here on my computer that you are not, in fact, a human. It shows that you are indeed a highly trained hamster. I give you until Saturday at noon to apologize for misleading the subsim community. I will not actually show anyone my evidence, y'all will just have to take my word that I am right and you are a hamster. Oh, and if there is evidence on subsim to anything, I'm sure you can post a link to it for everyone to verify. Otherwise, you are just making baseless accusations for your own purposes. What exactly do you get out of it? Even if RR were to admit to directly copying your work, so what? Your attitude in this and the 8010 thread are horrid. RR has been helpful, you call people stupid for not falling in line behind you. RR teaches, you incite. Which one are people going to credit with helping them to learn? Get over yourself. __________________ "Never ask a World War II history buff for a 'final solution' to your problem!"

12-01-10, 03:59 PM	#35
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	razark I prefer to hold off taking sides until we see the "evidence" supporting greyrider's claims. He is obviously upset and taking this personally. If he is incorrect, we can deal with it at the appropriate time. If he is correct, he can be chided for his tactics, again, at the appropriate time. I can wait the two days, but prefer he posts sooner rather than later. Who knows, perhaps he has something to show us that is meaningful? He wants his forum. Let's let him have it.

12-01-10, 05:01 PM	#37
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	I did some research Here is the thread I think greyrider is talking about. You can locate it by searching his posts. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...96&postcount=1 It is pretty long, and I did go through it in some detail. It looks like he wrote a tutorial for SH3 on sonar only attacks. It did not see anything on point and shoot or 8010. Maybe it is the wrong post? Post script: I found a reference in greyrider's old posts to a tactical folder, but it is not available on Rapidshare now. He references the tactical folder above, which he has located apparently. He will have to post it, I think, as I cannot locate it. Last edited by I'm goin' down; 12-01-10 at 05:38 PM.

12-01-10, 05:47 PM	#38
Dignan Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 698 Downloads: 262 Uploads: 0	Maybe I'm missing greyrider's point here but it is my understanding that all RR has ever done with the Dick O'Kane method and other constant bearing techniques is create easy to follow tutorials for others to learn from. I don't believe he ever took credit for inventing the tactic. Surely we all know that the real sub captain's of WWII developed these strategies. And after all......it's only a game. No one is making money off this. Just having fun.

12-01-10, 06:03 PM	#39
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	If everyone is having fun, then Greyrider would probalby agree that this is a LOVEFEST. (Something tells me it is not the right description...)

12-01-10, 08:23 PM	#42
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	general tao I stand corrected. I meant to say you clicked on bearing. re the new thread, I don't know what you should do.

12-01-10, 08:56 PM	#44
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	general tao if greyrider posts here rather than in a new thread, as I suggested, things will get confusing quickly.

12-01-10, 09:12 PM	#45
tomoose Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 930 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	@ Dignan I couldn't agree more. I've never seen RR post the "Rockin' Robin Method" which would give some validity to Greyrider's accusations. RR has always posted the "Dick O'Kane" method and has always referred to the sub skippers themselves as well as indicating other players methods or tweaks. How that can be seen as plagiarism is beyond me. As you so rightly pointed out, it is only a game and noone's "profits" are being ripped off etc. I would say RR's only "flaw" would be that he calls 'em as he sees 'em and doesn't pull any punches. I for one appreciate that but some people I guess, do not.