Dick O'Kane lead angle question - Page 2

I'm goin' down · 11-30-10, 08:39 PM

O'Kane is discussed in detail in posts 11 -13. You fire torpedoes when the juicy parts of the duck crosses the wire. You should not have to offset torpedoes to hit your mark.

Note: the dials you enter speed, Aob and range are referred to as the Stadimeter aka the Attack Dials (by Capn Scurvy in a tutorial), I believe.

The method you describe in the rest of your post is classic manual targeting. You enter speed, use the Aob to set the target's course (which you can verify by looking at ships dials on the TDC [the dial on the upper left]. You can find the target's true course using the compass tool on the Nav. Map. (Ask in a new thread if you do not know how to find a target's true course vs. relative course.) Next, turn on the PK. The TDC will begin to track the target. Set range with the Range Dial on the Stadimeter. You can check your firing solution on the Attack Map screen. If the whithe "X" is centered on the target, and the white line follows the target's true course (i.e. the course and the silouette of the target match), you are in business. The TDC will accurately track the target unless it changes course or speed. The TDC sets the torpedo angle, and adjusts it continuously while the target proceeds on its course. It will do so even if your boat is moving.

Note: Unless you activate the Easy Aob mod, adjusting the Aob dial will not cause a corresponding adjustment to the target's course. It is a kink in the game. The Easy Aob mod fixes that problem. You can find information on the mod in Neal Steven sticky re mod in the mod forum. The theory of manual target was explained by Hitman in a pdf download called Manual Targeting at 100 Percent Realism, also found in Stevens' sticky.

General Tso · 11-30-10, 08:59 PM

Yeah I'm using the Easy AOB mod. I'm also using TMO and RSRD mods so I don't get the little white "X" in the targeting map. I was just happy that I found a way to aim at individual spots on the target by just sending the bearing, but not resending the range. It makes it easier to fire 3 or 4 torpedoes at a fast target since there is less to do during crunch time. I don't understand why the extra work mentioned above for using the O'Kane method is necessary. I can use the O'Kane method without worrying about "Lead angles" etc. and it seems to work fine. I'm not saying that one method is better or more fun than the other. That's the beauty of this game - different people can do some things different and still obtain the same results.

I'm goin' down · 11-30-10, 09:14 PM

you may be using the constant bearing method. See Rock n Shoals thread in the Skippers Bag of Tricks thread. Unless the target is going 0 kts. the TDC will compute a lead angle, even if the PK is not activated. In the constant bearing attack, you point the periscope at the bearing you will fire (i.e. 5, 25, or 60 degrees bearing.) Set Aob per the tutorial instructions. Input target speed and range. When the target crosses the wire, fire. The TDC will automatically input the lead angle. It is like O'Kane, but you can use it an any angle. Other than that, I am not sure what you are doing. In the constant bearing attack, Rock n Shoals indicates his boat is stationary. Of course, the target is moving.

General Tso · 11-30-10, 10:14 PM

I'll explain in more detail. Assume that the target is a large freighter and it has already been ID'd using the book. First I get the target's speed and AOB using the navigation map (I can explain this part in more detail if needed). I enter the speed into the TDC and click on the red send to TDC button. I then enter the AOB into the TDC and click on the red send to TDC button. Then I use the stadimeter to get the range and click on the red send to TDC button to send range and bearing. I then start the PK. I update the above data as necessary as the target gets closer. I believe the description above is standard manual targeting as I'm goin' down explained in the post above. The part that was new to me is the individual targeting of parts of the ship as follows. I leave the PK on so that the TDC continues to track the target. The TDC is in the set range and bearing mode. I then move the scope's wire to the forward goal post of the freighter and click on the red send to TDC button without using the stadimeter . This sends the bearing of the front goal post to the TDC without changes the distance. I then fire a torpedo. I repeat the above with one torpedo to the stack and another to the rear goal post. The system seems to work perfectly and there isn't any extra complications. Plus I believe it was the actual method used by O'Kane (but I'm not absolutely certain of that). As mentioned above if this is a system that a lot of people are already using then I apologize for wasting everybody's time, but it's new to me and I didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

I'm goin' down · 12-01-10, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by General Tso

I'll explain in more detail. Assume that the target is a large freighter and it has already been ID'd using the book. First I get the target's speed and AOB using the navigation map (I can explain this part in more detail if needed). I enter the speed into the TDC and click on the red send to TDC button. I then enter the AOB into the TDC and click on the red send to TDC button. Then I use the stadimeter to get the range and click on the red send to TDC button to send range and bearing. I then start the PK. I update the above data as necessary as the target gets closer. I believe the description above is standard manual targeting as I'm goin' down explained in the post above. The part that was new to me is the individual targeting of parts of the ship as follows. I leave the PK on so that the TDC continues to track the target. The TDC is in the set range and bearing mode. I then move the scope's wire to the forward goal post of the freighter and click on the red send to TDC button without using the stadimeter . This sends the bearing of the front goal post to the TDC without changes the distance. I then fire a torpedo. I repeat the above with one torpedo to the stack and another to the rear goal post. The system seems to work perfectly and there isn't any extra complications. Plus I believe it was the actual method used by O'Kane (but I'm not absolutely certain of that). As mentioned above if this is a system that a lot of people are already using then I apologize for wasting everybody's time, but it's new to me and I didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

First, let's get the terminology straight so I know what you are trying to say.

The Stadimeter is on the upper right side of the screen and contains the three Attack Dials.

The PK is on the upper left side of the screen. You hit the PK button on the left side of the screen and it turns red, indicating that the PK is activated.

There are two dials on the TDC (upper left side of the screen). One is the ships' dials screen, and the other deals with torpedo speed settings/torpedo depth settings. We are discussing the ships' dials screen and not the torpedo speed settings/torpedo depth settings screen.

You are saying, I think, that you enter speed, aob and range via the appropriate Attack Dials. Next, activate the PK. As the target closes you check your Attack Dial settings for accuracy and refine them as necessary. This classic manual targeting. Here is your twist. Before you fire, you move your scope to the particular part of the target you wish to blow up, reset range on the Attack Dial without turning off the PK, and fire. According to your post, you hit the part of the target that you are aiming for, such as its stack by way of example. I have not done this, but I assume when you point the scope at the stack and click the range button on the Attack Dial (upper right side of screen, it adjusts the torpedo angle appropriately. You can see the adjustment, if there is one, on the ships' dials screen on the TDC (upper left screen) at the moment you click on the range button to send range (Attack Dial on the upper right.) to the TDC. All you are doing, I believe, is refining (adjusting) the lead angle based upon a new firing bearing.

I usually don't do this, but maybe it is a final adjustment to the firing solution that increases the odds of a successful impact. If I have restated your post accurately, let me know the range you are firing at and having success.

greyrider · 12-01-10, 07:49 AM

.

You see, Dick O'Kane came about because of my stupid mistake. I was using Gutted's great chart, which he had just adapted for fleet boats. It looks like this:

rockin robbins + gutted = Plagiarism!

Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as "the wrongful appropriation, close imitation, or
purloining and publication, of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions,
and the representation of them as one's own original work."

you are one disturbed individual rock, remember what i said in 8010, the more you try to cover your tracks, the more you expose?

another pathetic attempt at covering your tracks, and with obvious point and shoot material no less!

you seem to forget the people that downloaded the combat information mod, and the individual torpedo data sheets, which i called the bearing/speed charts
back in 2006 and 2007, from sh3 and sh4. you forget that they are witnesses to your lie, and gutted's fraud! you forget the people posting in the treads i made
of point and shoot as well as the sonar overlay and angle solver thread, that they are witnesses, and in which i might add, was the first posted instance of the point and shoot technique,
during the shooting phase of that post, when was that post posted? what year? 2005! where were you and gutted in 2005?

i remember now, you werent here! you didnt come here until 2007, haha! and gutted even later!

there is no civil crime for Plagiarism, but it is a moral crime, but one thing plagiarists do is validiate the work of the authors they steal from,
point and shoot is that good that you and gutted had to steal from it, copy it, and call it your own!

i wouldnt let you come into my house to steal something rock, you wouldnt get 3 feet before i dropped you with that intent , so im not going to let you steal point and shoot either,
i have a little bit of inside and outside work to do today, when i get back, i will spend the better part of the day here gathering evidence from my past posts, for the community to research,
then ill post it here in this tread, anyone still willing to stand for the truth, justice, and morality, will read, and will take a stand.
this really isnt for me as much as it is for future authors, modders, contributors to the game, and its also for the subsim management to make the decision,
will Plagiarism be condoned, or will it be condemned?

Dignan · 12-01-10, 09:28 AM

I reckon this thread is about to get a bit unfriendly

I'm goin' down · 12-01-10, 09:28 AM

Greyrider, is your beef that Rockin Robbins and gutted failed to attribute some of their work to your ideas? And if so, why does it matter? Are you making a claim that gutted's Solution Solver program is your handiwork? I am not sure I understand the point you are trying to make other than that you believe you were left out of the mix and claim you have not been credited as the originator of the theory applied and expounded upon by RR and/or gutted. Is it possible that they did not know of your ealier work? If you have been left out of the mix in terms of being credited for ideas, techniques, etc., so what? Is it your goal to have Captains stop using the the attack techniques Robbins and gutted refined? Or do you just want Captains to hold them in disdain for taking advantage of your ideas? Or do you want the techniques renamed (presumably to identify your alleged contribution.)?

I am not up to speed on the 8010 method, if that is what your post references, but I understand that there was some controversy regarding its theoretical underpinnings. If this is going to turn into am airing of accusations, may I suggest that it be dealt with in a different thread, as this one is intended to clarify the mechanics of the Dick O'Kane method, or if I understand you correctly, what should be known generally as Greyrider's technique? I wonder whether many will get overly excited about the issue you raise, but if it important to you is important that you aired, go ahead. Please do it in a separate thread as it will not confuse this one. One final note. If you are going to state your case, take time to think it through and present it carefully and dispationately, as the readers will not likely have much patience for a rant filled historical account of past events.

razark · 12-01-10, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dignan

I reckon this thread is about to get a bit unfriendly

Ya think?

Edit:
@Fish40: Have you read the 8010 thread? "Innocent mix up" went out the window a long time ago...

Fish40 · 12-01-10, 09:57 AM

Please guys, let's not get out of hand here. It could be just an innocent mix up.

@ General Tso: As far as I understand it, the DO method dose not use the PK at all. According to the tutorial, the PK is never turned on.

I'm goin' down · 12-01-10, 10:22 AM

See post 11.

Wilcke · 12-01-10, 10:45 AM

Plus the officers of the Silent Service, and others in or working for the USN are the ultimate developers of all these techniques. They deserve the attribution, the folks here on SS are merely the conduit documenting, delivering the ideas and methods. Nothing new under the sun.

tomoose · 12-01-10, 10:53 AM

I'm confused. How is it plagiarism to promote a WWII skipper's attack technique albeit with tweaks to account for game deficiencies/quirks?

Pisces · 12-01-10, 11:06 AM

Oh no, not groundhog day.

Whoever woke them up has to walk the plank.

They were supposed to be in hibernation this time of season.

tomoose · 12-01-10, 11:33 AM

LMAO. Lllet's get ready to ruuuumBLLLLLLLE!

11-30-10, 08:39 PM	#16
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	general tso O'Kane is discussed in detail in posts 11 -13. You fire torpedoes when the juicy parts of the duck crosses the wire. You should not have to offset torpedoes to hit your mark. Note: the dials you enter speed, Aob and range are referred to as the Stadimeter aka the Attack Dials (by Capn Scurvy in a tutorial), I believe. The method you describe in the rest of your post is classic manual targeting. You enter speed, use the Aob to set the target's course (which you can verify by looking at ships dials on the TDC [the dial on the upper left]. You can find the target's true course using the compass tool on the Nav. Map. (Ask in a new thread if you do not know how to find a target's true course vs. relative course.) Next, turn on the PK. The TDC will begin to track the target. Set range with the Range Dial on the Stadimeter. You can check your firing solution on the Attack Map screen. If the whithe "X" is centered on the target, and the white line follows the target's true course (i.e. the course and the silouette of the target match), you are in business. The TDC will accurately track the target unless it changes course or speed. The TDC sets the torpedo angle, and adjusts it continuously while the target proceeds on its course. It will do so even if your boat is moving. Note: Unless you activate the Easy Aob mod, adjusting the Aob dial will not cause a corresponding adjustment to the target's course. It is a kink in the game. The Easy Aob mod fixes that problem. You can find information on the mod in Neal Steven sticky re mod in the mod forum. The theory of manual target was explained by Hitman in a pdf download called Manual Targeting at 100 Percent Realism, also found in Stevens' sticky.

11-30-10, 09:14 PM	#18
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	i think.... you may be using the constant bearing method. See Rock n Shoals thread in the Skippers Bag of Tricks thread. Unless the target is going 0 kts. the TDC will compute a lead angle, even if the PK is not activated. In the constant bearing attack, you point the periscope at the bearing you will fire (i.e. 5, 25, or 60 degrees bearing.) Set Aob per the tutorial instructions. Input target speed and range. When the target crosses the wire, fire. The TDC will automatically input the lead angle. It is like O'Kane, but you can use it an any angle. Other than that, I am not sure what you are doing. In the constant bearing attack, Rock n Shoals indicates his boat is stationary. Of course, the target is moving.

12-01-10, 07:49 AM	#21
greyrider Watch Officer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: massachusetts Posts: 334 Downloads: 237 Uploads: 0	. You see, Dick O'Kane came about because of my stupid mistake. I was using Gutted's great chart, which he had just adapted for fleet boats. It looks like this: rockin robbins + gutted = Plagiarism! Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as "the wrongful appropriation, close imitation, or purloining and publication, of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions, and the representation of them as one's own original work." you are one disturbed individual rock, remember what i said in 8010, the more you try to cover your tracks, the more you expose? another pathetic attempt at covering your tracks, and with obvious point and shoot material no less! you seem to forget the people that downloaded the combat information mod, and the individual torpedo data sheets, which i called the bearing/speed charts back in 2006 and 2007, from sh3 and sh4. you forget that they are witnesses to your lie, and gutted's fraud! you forget the people posting in the treads i made of point and shoot as well as the sonar overlay and angle solver thread, that they are witnesses, and in which i might add, was the first posted instance of the point and shoot technique, during the shooting phase of that post, when was that post posted? what year? 2005! where were you and gutted in 2005? i remember now, you werent here! you didnt come here until 2007, haha! and gutted even later! there is no civil crime for Plagiarism, but it is a moral crime, but one thing plagiarists do is validiate the work of the authors they steal from, point and shoot is that good that you and gutted had to steal from it, copy it, and call it your own! i wouldnt let you come into my house to steal something rock, you wouldnt get 3 feet before i dropped you with that intent , so im not going to let you steal point and shoot either, i have a little bit of inside and outside work to do today, when i get back, i will spend the better part of the day here gathering evidence from my past posts, for the community to research, then ill post it here in this tread, anyone still willing to stand for the truth, justice, and morality, will read, and will take a stand. this really isnt for me as much as it is for future authors, modders, contributors to the game, and its also for the subsim management to make the decision, will Plagiarism be condoned, or will it be condemned? __________________ Her gun crew had guts, however, for from her canting bow came a half dozen well-aimed rounds. How they pointed and trained their gun on that tilting platform will long remain a wonder, and their dedication in keeping up the fire until they went under would be a matter of pride to any nation. O'Kane, Richard. Clear the Bridge!: The War Patrols of the U.S.S. Tang

12-01-10, 09:28 AM	#23
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	i do not get it Greyrider, is your beef that Rockin Robbins and gutted failed to attribute some of their work to your ideas? And if so, why does it matter? Are you making a claim that gutted's Solution Solver program is your handiwork? I am not sure I understand the point you are trying to make other than that you believe you were left out of the mix and claim you have not been credited as the originator of the theory applied and expounded upon by RR and/or gutted. Is it possible that they did not know of your ealier work? If you have been left out of the mix in terms of being credited for ideas, techniques, etc., so what? Is it your goal to have Captains stop using the the attack techniques Robbins and gutted refined? Or do you just want Captains to hold them in disdain for taking advantage of your ideas? Or do you want the techniques renamed (presumably to identify your alleged contribution.)? I am not up to speed on the 8010 method, if that is what your post references, but I understand that there was some controversy regarding its theoretical underpinnings. If this is going to turn into am airing of accusations, may I suggest that it be dealt with in a different thread, as this one is intended to clarify the mechanics of the Dick O'Kane method, or if I understand you correctly, what should be known generally as Greyrider's technique? I wonder whether many will get overly excited about the issue you raise, but if it important to you is important that you aired, go ahead. Please do it in a separate thread as it will not confuse this one. One final note. If you are going to state your case, take time to think it through and present it carefully and dispationately, as the readers will not likely have much patience for a rant filled historical account of past events. Last edited by I'm goin' down; 12-01-10 at 12:55 PM.

12-01-10, 10:22 AM	#26
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	Fish See post 11.

11-30-10, 08:59 PM	#17
General Tso Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: U. S. of A. Posts: 129 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	Yeah I'm using the Easy AOB mod. I'm also using TMO and RSRD mods so I don't get the little white "X" in the targeting map. I was just happy that I found a way to aim at individual spots on the target by just sending the bearing, but not resending the range. It makes it easier to fire 3 or 4 torpedoes at a fast target since there is less to do during crunch time. I don't understand why the extra work mentioned above for using the O'Kane method is necessary. I can use the O'Kane method without worrying about "Lead angles" etc. and it seems to work fine. I'm not saying that one method is better or more fun than the other. That's the beauty of this game - different people can do some things different and still obtain the same results.

11-30-10, 10:14 PM	#19
General Tso Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: U. S. of A. Posts: 129 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	I'll explain in more detail. Assume that the target is a large freighter and it has already been ID'd using the book. First I get the target's speed and AOB using the navigation map (I can explain this part in more detail if needed). I enter the speed into the TDC and click on the red send to TDC button. I then enter the AOB into the TDC and click on the red send to TDC button. Then I use the stadimeter to get the range and click on the red send to TDC button to send range and bearing. I then start the PK. I update the above data as necessary as the target gets closer. I believe the description above is standard manual targeting as I'm goin' down explained in the post above. The part that was new to me is the individual targeting of parts of the ship as follows. I leave the PK on so that the TDC continues to track the target. The TDC is in the set range and bearing mode. I then move the scope's wire to the forward goal post of the freighter and click on the red send to TDC button without using the stadimeter . This sends the bearing of the front goal post to the TDC without changes the distance. I then fire a torpedo. I repeat the above with one torpedo to the stack and another to the rear goal post. The system seems to work perfectly and there isn't any extra complications. Plus I believe it was the actual method used by O'Kane (but I'm not absolutely certain of that). As mentioned above if this is a system that a lot of people are already using then I apologize for wasting everybody's time, but it's new to me and I didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

12-01-10, 09:28 AM	#22
Dignan Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 698 Downloads: 262 Uploads: 0	I reckon this thread is about to get a bit unfriendly

12-01-10, 09:57 AM	#25
Fish40 The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Yonkers, NY U.S.A. Posts: 1,507 Downloads: 154 Uploads: 0	Please guys, let's not get out of hand here. It could be just an innocent mix up. @ General Tso: As far as I understand it, the DO method dose not use the PK at all. According to the tutorial, the PK is never turned on.

12-01-10, 10:45 AM	#27
Wilcke The Old Man Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,441 Downloads: 234 Uploads: 0	Plus the officers of the Silent Service, and others in or working for the USN are the ultimate developers of all these techniques. They deserve the attribution, the folks here on SS are merely the conduit documenting, delivering the ideas and methods. Nothing new under the sun. __________________ Wilcke **For the best in Fleet Boats go to: Submarine Sim Central. http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php Check out: A Brief Introduction to the Pacific Submarine War by Ducimus http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=128185 Operation Monsun plus OMEGU, the #1 ATO Solution for SH4! Signature Art by Gunfighter**

12-01-10, 10:53 AM	#28
tomoose Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 930 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Plagiarism I'm confused. How is it plagiarism to promote a WWII skipper's attack technique albeit with tweaks to account for game deficiencies/quirks?

12-01-10, 11:06 AM	#29
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	Oh no, not groundhog day. Whoever woke them up has to walk the plank. They were supposed to be in hibernation this time of season. __________________ My site downloads: https://ricojansen.nl/downloads

12-01-10, 11:33 AM	#30
tomoose Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 930 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	@ Pisces LMAO. Lllet's get ready to ruuuumBLLLLLLLE!