Legality of torture

[Skybird]

Waterboarding IS torture. It is a procedure that not only mentally raises an involuntary fear of death by drowning, but also provokes physical reaction by the body being set into a condition of agony, and additonal painful, convulsive spasms throughout the body that during the procedure is tied down.

If agony and the ultimate physical experience of drowning, which is beyond conscious control by the subject'S mind, is not torture, then NOTHING is torture.

Whether or not noticable marks of physical damage are left on or in the body, is not the criterion of torture. You can electroshock people without leaving visible marks. You can torture without breaking bones, cutting flesh and blood flowing.

This discussion about laws and paragraphs going on here is alienating, and in a way: frightening. Because it demonstrates exactly the same bureaucratic mindset you have seen in Nazi bureaucrats who with perfidious pedantism kept note and written record of the medical experiments, the orders flowing down the command lines, the crimes and decisions and processes in the killing industry - and often thought that because everything was in order with the written records and evertyhing was taking place in accordance with some written rules and orders of duty, the horrifying results therefor were "okay", too. Many of them defended themselves with saying they were ordered to do this, and that the law was like that.

They were unable or unwilling or both to look beyond the law, and question the law itself.

Sometimes some people say they are wondering how the Third Reich, and the fanatism of Nazi vasalls, could happen. You must not necessarily look into history to examine that. Looking at events after that, or even the present people today, can provide answers, too.

Also, the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram Experiment are not reserved for German people with Nazi mindsets, too.

Hold the discussion for a while. Take a breath. Get back in contact with reality - and realise what it actually is that you talk about and that you think you do justice to when describing it with bureaucratic formalities only.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Good points, Sky. I only sought to provide a legal definition of torture and a benchmark. I tend to agree with you, and I said as much:

Originally Posted by me

I put waterboarding in the same class as sleep-deprivation, but I would never advocate it. It seems a rather crude means of extracting information. You'd think intel would come up with something more clever than that.

Even in the face of a clear and present danger, I would not advocate torture. There are more effective and efficient ways to obtain truthful information.

Some of you may remember the SUBSIM werewolf hunt and were-fish hunt games we played a while back. I'm sure that most of those who particiapted will remember my role in those games. I died in both those games, and even failed to recognize a werewolf under my own nose in time (Oberon), but in both games I successfully identified an enemy before anyone else did. I did that through a combination of threats, deception, politics, and the old carrot-and-stick treatment.

Those games were, of course, not reality, and in reality the subject can't kill you, but the theory behind all of my reasoning is quite sound. I learned the theory from Sgt. Purdee, a brilliant but ironically ugly intel Marine. The key in humane interrogation is to divide and conquer, and to control the flow of information. It is a difficult concept to explain, and I can't really elaborate on it within the constraints of text limits, but what you essentially want to do is to pit everyone against everyone else and keep track of who should be thinking what and when, and then find inconsistencies during cross-examination and , for lack of a word "misinformed counter-cross-examination". Anyone remember the "feeler" messages I had them send? That's an example. And there were "false-feeler" messages as well.

This is why prisoners are segregated from officers and their fellows during interrogation. Even if they have a preconceived story, they will eventually fail under instense and properly structured questioning, and the truth will lie within the inconsistencies. There really isn't any need for torture if your threats and questioning are effective enough. One just has to be creative.

Physical torture is the resort of the stupid and the brutal. A good interrogator can extract any information from anyone without inflicting any physical or lasting mental duress whatsoever. The trick is in getting the right people to do the job.

[tater]

Legalism is all that matters in this case, skybird, otherwise a "comfy chair" is torture, or being forced to listen to, I dunno, "metal" music (blech!)

No matter where the bar is set, and I agree, waterboarding is as close to the edge possible. Note that it's still a matter of how much, and how far apart. Anything that people will have done to themselves voluntarily is not "clear" one way or another to me—but they volunteer to have it done just a few times, not many. So is twice OK, and 3 times torture? <shrug>

The US only did it to 3 people, FWIW, and hasn't for several years now.

[tater]

Got it, "zionist."

nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

They are striped, and have horns, right?

tater,

1) give proof that supports that number of individuals waterboarded

2) proof that only waterboarding has been used

Hell, while you're at it, give us the insights into the US's torture 'regimen', I'm sure a lot of people would be interested.

Originally Posted by tater

Got it, "zionist."

nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

They are striped, and have horns, right?

No. They believe, among other things, that a mystical being gave them the divine right to steal a land that according to them belongs to them and only them. I guess you're ok with that while at the same time condemning other religions.

[GoldenRivet]

I have stayed out of this one fir as long as I could. But here is my take on the subject of torture.

If in uncivilized enemy, unbound by the Geneva convention captured one of our boys over there... There ain't any lawyers, there are no rights, there are no bleeding hearts liberals, no ACLU... our trooper is going to experience the unimaginable at the hands od sadistic men who wouldn't think twice about taking a hammer to your bound testicles.

So I don't want to hear a damned thing about what "is or isn't" torture.

Waterboard them until they die of cardiac arrest for all I care.

Line them up abrest. Ask them a question. You get no answer you slaughter a live pig, splash them with it's blood and blow their brains out and move to the next guy.

By guy #3... you have your information

they don't place any value on your lives... Why place value on theirs?

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

I have stayed out of this one fir as long as I could. But here is my take on the subject of torture.

If in uncivilized enemy, unbound by the Geneva convention captured one of our boys over there... There ain't any lawyers, there are no rights, there are no bleeding hearts liberals, no ACLU... our trooper is going to experience the unimaginable at the hands od sadistic men who wouldn't think twice about taking a hammer to your bound testicles.

So I don't want to hear a damned thing about what "is or isn't" torture.

Waterboard them until they die of cardiac arrest for all I care.

Line them up abrest. Ask them a question. You get no answer you slaughter a live pig, splash them with it's blood and blow their brains out and move to the next guy.

By guy #3... you have your information

they don't place any value on your lives... Why place value on theirs?

This couldn't possibly backfire.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

This couldn't possibly backfire.

Let it backfire.

It's how I feel, and in my opinion should be our official position.

To hell with them all.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by August

That isn't really true. Colonial militia made a point of wearing some identifying mark on the battlefield to distinguish themselves from civilians.

Can you also list which civilians they were killing? I suppose you can find isolated incidents for anything but afaik there was no officially ordered massacre of civilians by the Continental army.

If you look in to the southern campaign you'll see that there were small groups of militia on both sides (Rebels and Loyalists) went around settling old scores.

The executions after The Battle of Kings Mountain are one example. it could be said those men were killed for an act of treason which was that they were not committing treason.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by TBoone

Look my Grandfather Fought in Vietnam and he made Sergeant E6 in 2 years and is a good friend and mentore of mine He Believes the same as I do because I learned that from him. Oh and by the way if you think he was just one of those drugies who sat behind the lines. He was in the 101st Airborne Division 506th Paratroop Ifantry Regiment He was a Hero him and his men were the front line from Cambodia to the DMZ. And My Greatgrandfather drove General Patton around for 3 months in WW2 Normandy. I also happen to study history do you???

I am a former soldier myself. What your grandfather believes or did is irrelevant to the discussion on hand.

Look, I an think of several situations where I would resort to methods which can be described as torture, and rightly so as they are just that, if that meant to save the lives of my men or civilians. BUT at the very same time I would expect to be tried and convicted for my crimes by the very same society that I have sworn an oath to protect and whose laws I follow, since doing so would put me at odds with them.
I can not condone torture as a practice by any government entity because that goes against the very foundation of the society I am to protect. I fully realize this position may seem strange to a lot of you, but that is my take on the mater, when ever I break any law, I already have accepted the potential punishment.
There are times when soldiers do things that are morally questionable or downright wrong, they pay the price to keep this somewhat free society alive. Do not cheapen our sacrifices by condoning disgressions against the very base rights we have fought to keep there.

[August]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

If you look in to the southern campaign you'll see that there were small groups of militia on both sides (Rebels and Loyalists) went around settling old scores.

The executions after The Battle of Kings Mountain are one example. it could be said those men were killed for an act of treason which was that they were not committing treason.

Ok so it was like I said then, nothing organized or approved by Washington or the Continental Congress.

[Dowly]

I wished I'd see a video of US soldier being waterboarded or beaten. I'd quess that'd change the replies in this thread.

IMHO, westernt world has gone to far to call themselves the good guys anymore. We have sunk to their level. Not good.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Dowly

I wished I'd see a video of US soldier being waterboarded or beaten. I'd quess that'd change the replies in this thread.

IMHO, westernt world has gone to far to call themselves the good guys anymore. We have sunk to their level. Not good.

Saw everything i needed to see when they were cutting the heads off of innocent civilians.

No... we havent sunk to their level... not until we start capturing random citizens and start beheading them for shock value.

I have nothing good to say about any of these _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ [I value my membership too much to type it so use your imagination]

[Happy Times]

I want to add that there are no methods shown in Finland that would lead to permanent physical harm.

Im sure amost anything is considered torture nowdays by some but i dont think essentially scaring people qualifys.

I also remember when we were briefed about Russian methods, used in Chechnya for exsample.
Everyone agreed that they would rather finish themselves or ask others to help if wounded.

If you see your friends skinned alive you might start talking, better not to put yourself in that position, so no surrender for me.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

No... we havent sunk to their level... not until we start capturing random citizens and start beheading them for shock value.

If you start measuring the methods of your torture by using what terrorists do and don't do as a yardstick, you've lost sight of the basic fact that 1) using terrorists as your moral compass is ridiculous and 2) torture is wrong and we as a country are better than that.