The failure of DW - Page 5

Nexus7 · 07-13-09, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pillar

What if instead of appealing to the casual market, they just charged *us* more?

Yeah, I always had the feeling that DW is cheap for what it offers

But then its suddenly too expensive when the Producer goes AWOL...

goldorak · 07-13-09, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Going back to the very beginning, I remember the discussions around here were often not so "polite"...

- "Will you wait next year to release the game ?"
- "Does the new patch arrive already ?"

That sort of stuff was quite irritating but very constant.

It enoughs to browse the topics in late 2005 to see what the athmosphere was like... as an example: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=82081

Thinking back at the atmosphere around, I wonder a little less that Sonalyst got pis***-off

I can't believe you are blaming the community for S.C.S shortcomings.

Without members of the community who took the time to write manuals about how to use the different units a whole less people would be playing this game. I know that if it were not for the manuals of the p-3, the kilo, tma etc... I would have left years ago.
I had 0 knowledge of naval tactics and warfare when I bought the game (including the 600+ pages so called manual). There was no one to explain me the nuts and bolts of naval tactics. And little by little with help from the manuals, from questions answered on this forum I came to "dominate" DW.
Now think what a casual player would have done, 5 minutes installing not understanding anything and deleting the game as fast as it was installed.

goldorak · 07-13-09, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Yeah, I always had the feeling that DW is cheap for what it offers

But then its suddenly too expensive when the Producer goes AWOL...

Yeah we got a broken game.
And it still is a broken game even with all the fantastic mods.
For 100$ I want a product that kicks ass on all sides, including GRAPHICS.
Anything short of excellence is forbidden.
Accepting something like DW 1.04 for 100$ is a sure way to say to the software houses keep "Fu..king" us with all your might we are all to happy to oblige.

Nexus7 · 07-13-09, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoBlo

I wonder what percentage of Harpoon 3 gamers went for DW, why and why not.

Speculating, I could name as a minor reason that if you wanted to buy the game but browsed this forum seeing the feedback, I would think twice before opening the money-pocket

If I take a look at the posts back then, the atmosphere was quite nervous and negative

And I add that the people that were hurrying up Sonalyst to release the game in the expected date, might have to do a self-examination...

goldorak · 07-13-09, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus7

And I add that the people that were hurrying up Sonalyst to release the game in the expected date, might have to do a self-examination...

If you think that a software house establishes its release schedule according to its fanbase, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Nexus7 · 07-13-09, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

I can't believe you are blaming the community for S.C.S shortcomings.

Without members of the community who took the time to write manuals about how to use the different units a whole less people would be playing this game. I know that if it were not for the manuals of the p-3, the kilo, tma etc... I would have left years ago.
I had 0 knowledge of naval tactics and warfare when I bought the game (including the 600+ pages so called manual). There was no one to explain me the nuts and bolts of naval tactics. And little by little with help from the manuals, from questions answered on this forum I came to "dominate" DW.
Now think what a casual player would have done, 5 minutes installing not understanding anything and deleting the game as fast as it was installed.

From what I can remember, I didn't like the atmosphere back then. As said, nervous and negative.

Btw, I did my little part in complaining (I had an issue in regard of how the TMA works but I can't remember exactly what).

What did irritate me the most, was the pressure that some people where injecting into Sonalyst to make them release game & patches faster...

I am not addressing the whole community, but yes, a lot of elements were, IMHO, destructive...

Linton · 07-13-09, 07:17 AM

Disappointing would be how I would describe DW.We were promised expansion packs and campaigns but they never materialised and sonalysts have not allowed a clone of scx to be developed.This has had a direct effect on my desire to play DW and if I do play now I play SCX.

Nexus7 · 07-13-09, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

If you think that a software house establishes its release schedule according to its fanbase, I've got a bridge to sell you.

goldorak · 07-13-09, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linton

Disappointing would be how I would describe DW.We were promised expansion packs and campaigns but they never materialised and sonalysts have not allowed a clone of scx to be developed.This has had a direct effect on my desire to play DW and if I do play now I play SCX.

The clone of SCX is called RA also known as DWX.
You will not be disappointed.

goldorak · 07-13-09, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus7

I am not addressing the whole community, but yes, a lot of elements were, IMHO, destructive...

I remember well, and yes in particular there were some people who were very vocal about the state of DW 1.0. Honestly you can hardly blame them, as the game in that state was basically a beta and many things were broken.
Basic things regarding sonar in particular. A subsim that has a broken sonar model you're not going to be happy with after spending big bucks buying it.

Nexus7 · 07-13-09, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

I remember well, and yes in particular there were some people who were very vocal about the state of DW 1.0. Honestly you can hardly blame them, as the game in that state was basically a beta and many things were broken.
Basic things regarding sonar in particular. A subsim that has a broken sonar model you're not going to be happy with after spending big bucks buying it.

That's why I said in a previous post, in a rude way, "if I was a programmer, i would give a darn about the community", meaning that getting involved in the discussions is just too expensive in terms of time, energy, and poor effectiveness when you have certain destructive ppl around...
Again, I dare to say that the feedback here, taken as the whole, was not really a motivation boost for Jamie & Co, rather the countrary

As a positive note, now DW is very cheap to get (if i saw well, about 7$ @ the subsim.store

) and maybe the low price will attract some more ppl

goldorak · 07-13-09, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus7

As a positive note, now DW is very cheap to get (if i saw well, about 7$ @ the subsim.store

) and maybe the low price will attract some more ppl

In Italy you can still buy it for 4,99 €

Max2147 · 07-13-09, 01:04 PM

I was a fan of SCS games, but I didn't buy DW.

A few reasons were:
1. Sub Command was disappointing. The learning curve was very steep, the game was buggy, the graphics were dated, and in general it just wasn't fun. I gave up on it before the mods arrived.

2. Premise of the game. I like realism and such, but the simple fact is that modern naval combat is a lot of people sitting in dark rooms and staring at sensor screens. You never even see your enemy, and in a sub you never even see the outside world. So a realistic simulation of modern naval combat won't be terribly exciting, in my mind. In SH4 you could at least cruise around on the surface, see enemy ships through your scope, and shoot at planes from the deck. Fleet Command takes you outside the ship altogether. Both those games, for all their flaws, are simply FUN. Sub Command wasn't fun, and I feared that DW would be the same.

3. Graphics. It's not the most important thing in a game, but I do think they matter. For example, SH4 isn't up there with the latest FPS and such as far as graphics, but they're certainly not bad. DW's graphics were BAD. They weren't really an improvement over Sub Command, which in turn wasn't an improvement over Fleet Command, which had dated graphics when it was released.

4. A Sub Command redux. I didn't really see much in DW to separate it from SC. If the frigate, the Kilo, and the plane had come out as a SC expansion pack, I might have been more interested. But the reviews I read said that the frigate and the plane were the worst parts of the game.

Overall, I loved Fleet Command. It had its flaws, but with the NWP pack it was reasonably realistic but still accessible to a non-expert like me. There's a balance to be had between realism and fun, and FC got that balance exactly right. Unfortunately, SC got it wrong. Having loved FC, the boredom of SC was a big disappointment. Since DW looked like it would be more of the same as far as SC was concerned, I didn't bother.

I read an interview with somebody at Sonalysis not long after DW was released where they mentioned that the company was getting a bunch of government contracts. I think the easy money there caused them to lose interest in games. The Naval Combat Pack was simply an easy cash-in that required almost no work on their part.

What I'd really like to see is a Fleet Command 2.

Hawk66 · 07-13-09, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max2147

I was a fan of SCS games, but I didn't buy DW.

4. A Sub Command redux. I didn't really see much in DW to separate it from SC. If the frigate, the Kilo, and the plane had come out as a SC expansion pack, I might have been more interested. But the reviews I read said that the frigate and the plane were the worst parts of the game.

? The P-3 is modelled well IMO and the frigate has some shortcomings like the TMA station but it is far from unplayable...it's a complete other feeling as being in a sub.
Actually, I've read a review that the P-3 itself is worth this sim.

Did you try out the demo? There, you can control the MH-60

OneShot · 07-13-09, 02:13 PM

As far as I'm concerned I think both Air platforms are well modelled (not the 3D model unfortunatly) and quite playable. I can't speak for the FFG, but the few times I played this platform I rather enjoyed it (the TMA problem didnt occur to me as I used AC for that).

Aside from those platforms, the other addition compared to SC is the Kilo Class sub which plays quite different compared to the Nuke subs. All in all is DW a much more advanced sim then SC both in terms of playable platforms/ASW levels (right out of the box) as well as other capabilities ... Multistation comes to mind.

So its a bit more then just an expansion to SC, unfortunatly lots of people limit the game as well as themselves to the subs instead of exploring new ground in DW (FFG/Air) ...

View Poll Results: What did kill DW ?
Bad programming, too many bugs	31	31.63%
Simulator too complicated	20	20.41%
Insufficent number of sub simmers	47	47.96%
price too high	0	0%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

07-13-09, 07:17 AM	#67
Linton Sea Lord Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,898 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Disappointing would be how I would describe DW.We were promised expansion packs and campaigns but they never materialised and sonalysts have not allowed a clone of scx to be developed.This has had a direct effect on my desire to play DW and if I do play now I play SCX. __________________ http://lintonsview.blogspot.com/

07-13-09, 02:13 PM	#75
OneShot Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 956 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	As far as I'm concerned I think both Air platforms are well modelled (not the 3D model unfortunatly) and quite playable. I can't speak for the FFG, but the few times I played this platform I rather enjoyed it (the TMA problem didnt occur to me as I used AC for that). Aside from those platforms, the other addition compared to SC is the Kilo Class sub which plays quite different compared to the Nuke subs. All in all is DW a much more advanced sim then SC both in terms of playable platforms/ASW levels (right out of the box) as well as other capabilities ... Multistation comes to mind. So its a bit more then just an expansion to SC, unfortunatly lots of people limit the game as well as themselves to the subs instead of exploring new ground in DW (FFG/Air) ... __________________ All the things you always wanted to know about Dangerous Waters but never dared to ask!

07-13-09, 01:04 PM	#73
Max2147 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 714 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I was a fan of SCS games, but I didn't buy DW. A few reasons were: 1. Sub Command was disappointing. The learning curve was very steep, the game was buggy, the graphics were dated, and in general it just wasn't fun. I gave up on it before the mods arrived. 2. Premise of the game. I like realism and such, but the simple fact is that modern naval combat is a lot of people sitting in dark rooms and staring at sensor screens. You never even see your enemy, and in a sub you never even see the outside world. So a realistic simulation of modern naval combat won't be terribly exciting, in my mind. In SH4 you could at least cruise around on the surface, see enemy ships through your scope, and shoot at planes from the deck. Fleet Command takes you outside the ship altogether. Both those games, for all their flaws, are simply FUN. Sub Command wasn't fun, and I feared that DW would be the same. 3. Graphics. It's not the most important thing in a game, but I do think they matter. For example, SH4 isn't up there with the latest FPS and such as far as graphics, but they're certainly not bad. DW's graphics were BAD. They weren't really an improvement over Sub Command, which in turn wasn't an improvement over Fleet Command, which had dated graphics when it was released. 4. A Sub Command redux. I didn't really see much in DW to separate it from SC. If the frigate, the Kilo, and the plane had come out as a SC expansion pack, I might have been more interested. But the reviews I read said that the frigate and the plane were the worst parts of the game. Overall, I loved Fleet Command. It had its flaws, but with the NWP pack it was reasonably realistic but still accessible to a non-expert like me. There's a balance to be had between realism and fun, and FC got that balance exactly right. Unfortunately, SC got it wrong. Having loved FC, the boredom of SC was a big disappointment. Since DW looked like it would be more of the same as far as SC was concerned, I didn't bother. I read an interview with somebody at Sonalysis not long after DW was released where they mentioned that the company was getting a bunch of government contracts. I think the easy money there caused them to lose interest in games. The Naval Combat Pack was simply an easy cash-in that required almost no work on their part. What I'd really like to see is a Fleet Command 2.