The failure of DW

[Max2147]

I was a fan of SCS games, but I didn't buy DW.

A few reasons were:
1. Sub Command was disappointing. The learning curve was very steep, the game was buggy, the graphics were dated, and in general it just wasn't fun. I gave up on it before the mods arrived.

2. Premise of the game. I like realism and such, but the simple fact is that modern naval combat is a lot of people sitting in dark rooms and staring at sensor screens. You never even see your enemy, and in a sub you never even see the outside world. So a realistic simulation of modern naval combat won't be terribly exciting, in my mind. In SH4 you could at least cruise around on the surface, see enemy ships through your scope, and shoot at planes from the deck. Fleet Command takes you outside the ship altogether. Both those games, for all their flaws, are simply FUN. Sub Command wasn't fun, and I feared that DW would be the same.

3. Graphics. It's not the most important thing in a game, but I do think they matter. For example, SH4 isn't up there with the latest FPS and such as far as graphics, but they're certainly not bad. DW's graphics were BAD. They weren't really an improvement over Sub Command, which in turn wasn't an improvement over Fleet Command, which had dated graphics when it was released.

4. A Sub Command redux. I didn't really see much in DW to separate it from SC. If the frigate, the Kilo, and the plane had come out as a SC expansion pack, I might have been more interested. But the reviews I read said that the frigate and the plane were the worst parts of the game.

Overall, I loved Fleet Command. It had its flaws, but with the NWP pack it was reasonably realistic but still accessible to a non-expert like me. There's a balance to be had between realism and fun, and FC got that balance exactly right. Unfortunately, SC got it wrong. Having loved FC, the boredom of SC was a big disappointment. Since DW looked like it would be more of the same as far as SC was concerned, I didn't bother.

I read an interview with somebody at Sonalysis not long after DW was released where they mentioned that the company was getting a bunch of government contracts. I think the easy money there caused them to lose interest in games. The Naval Combat Pack was simply an easy cash-in that required almost no work on their part.

What I'd really like to see is a Fleet Command 2.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by Max2147

I was a fan of SCS games, but I didn't buy DW.


4. A Sub Command redux. I didn't really see much in DW to separate it from SC. If the frigate, the Kilo, and the plane had come out as a SC expansion pack, I might have been more interested. But the reviews I read said that the frigate and the plane were the worst parts of the game.

? The P-3 is modelled well IMO and the frigate has some shortcomings like the TMA station but it is far from unplayable...it's a complete other feeling as being in a sub.
Actually, I've read a review that the P-3 itself is worth this sim.

Did you try out the demo? There, you can control the MH-60

[OneShot]

As far as I'm concerned I think both Air platforms are well modelled (not the 3D model unfortunatly) and quite playable. I can't speak for the FFG, but the few times I played this platform I rather enjoyed it (the TMA problem didnt occur to me as I used AC for that).

Aside from those platforms, the other addition compared to SC is the Kilo Class sub which plays quite different compared to the Nuke subs. All in all is DW a much more advanced sim then SC both in terms of playable platforms/ASW levels (right out of the box) as well as other capabilities ... Multistation comes to mind.

So its a bit more then just an expansion to SC, unfortunatly lots of people limit the game as well as themselves to the subs instead of exploring new ground in DW (FFG/Air) ...

[Dr.Sid]

I too think air platforms and FFG are superb. It's just totally different. The subs, nukes especially, are all pretty similar.

And FFG is the best platform .. since it has GUNS.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

I too think air platforms and FFG are superb. It's just totally different. The subs, nukes especially, are all pretty similar.

And FFG is the best platform .. since it has GUNS.

Isn't that the truth. I've sunk with the cannon careless skippers that occasionally popped up to fire one or more sams on my helos. Playing the frigate is a completely different experience from subs and it adds to the fun. Its even better when you play in 3 in multistation.

[Fleet Command CC]

I pick Bad programming, too many bugs, because the game is a pain to modify, and also adding new model's is impossible (I don't like using this word but in this case its needed) if you have not got 3D Studio Max R2.5. or R3.1

[Fleet Command CC]

Originally Posted by Max2147

I was a fan of SCS games, but I didn't buy DW.

A few reasons were:
1. Sub Command was disappointing. The learning curve was very steep, the game was buggy, the graphics were dated, and in general it just wasn't fun. I gave up on it before the mods arrived.

2. Premise of the game. I like realism and such, but the simple fact is that modern naval combat is a lot of people sitting in dark rooms and staring at sensor screens. You never even see your enemy, and in a sub you never even see the outside world. So a realistic simulation of modern naval combat won't be terribly exciting, in my mind. In SH4 you could at least cruise around on the surface, see enemy ships through your scope, and shoot at planes from the deck. Fleet Command takes you outside the ship altogether. Both those games, for all their flaws, are simply FUN. Sub Command wasn't fun, and I feared that DW would be the same.

3. Graphics. It's not the most important thing in a game, but I do think they matter. For example, SH4 isn't up there with the latest FPS and such as far as graphics, but they're certainly not bad. DW's graphics were BAD. They weren't really an improvement over Sub Command, which in turn wasn't an improvement over Fleet Command, which had dated graphics when it was released.

4. A Sub Command redux. I didn't really see much in DW to separate it from SC. If the frigate, the Kilo, and the plane had come out as a SC expansion pack, I might have been more interested. But the reviews I read said that the frigate and the plane were the worst parts of the game.

Overall, I loved Fleet Command. It had its flaws, but with the NWP pack it was reasonably realistic but still accessible to a non-expert like me. There's a balance to be had between realism and fun, and FC got that balance exactly right. Unfortunately, SC got it wrong. Having loved FC, the boredom of SC was a big disappointment. Since DW looked like it would be more of the same as far as SC was concerned, I didn't bother.

I read an interview with somebody at Sonalysis not long after DW was released where they mentioned that the company was getting a bunch of government contracts. I think the easy money there caused them to lose interest in games. The Naval Combat Pack was simply an easy cash-in that required almost no work on their part.

What I'd really like to see is a Fleet Command 2.

Max2147

I agree with all your points well said, I'd love to see a new FC game too.

[Neptunus Rex]

It took longer than 15 minutes to play a scenario. That's about the average attention span of most people.

Why do you think they call this generation "The Fast Food Generation"?

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by Neptunus Rex

It took longer than 15 minutes to play a scenario. That's about the average attention span of most people.

Why do you think they call this generation "The Fast Food Generation"?

For some people, maybe. But I had no problem playing 6 hour long scenarios in Fleet Command, or playing entire patrols in one go in SH4. Somehow SC just didn't capture me in the same way, and I didn't see any reason why DW would be different.

[Hawk66]

Cocerning atmosphere:

A lot of missions lack atmosphere (for my personal taste). I mean for example, not enough messages(communication) and that stuff, no big suprises concerning the 'big' picture of a mission.
Also things like limited AI.

But that could be solved by the community: if you would write a scenario generator, which creates the missions (not completely random but based on scenario-stubs created by a designer) and scenario-dependent doctrines (it is possible) dynamic campaigns + interesting (generated) scenarions seem to be possible.

Would be very hard work, no question.
But on the other hand, concerning the SDK discussion a few years ago: Who should use such a SDK if the people do not use the possibilites which the sim is providing now?

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Cocerning atmosphere:

A lot of missions lack atmosphere (for my personal taste). I mean for example, not enough messages(communication) and that stuff, no big suprises concerning the 'big' picture of a mission.
Also things like limited AI.

But that could be solved by the community: if you would write a scenario generator, which creates the missions (not completely random but based on scenario-stubs created by a designer) and scenario-dependent doctrines (it is possible) dynamic campaigns + interesting (generated) scenarions seem to be possible.

Would be very hard work, no question.
But on the other hand, concerning the SDK discussion a few years ago: Who should use such a SDK if the people do not use the possibilites which the sim is providing now?

If I'm not mistaken, something like a limited dynamic campaign generator was done for Silent Hunter 2 which had no native dynamic campaign engine, only scripted missions were available. So something like that could be done for DW.
The problem if you want to call it that, is that many people with the required technical expertise just don't care anymore for DW. Maybe out of spite towards SCS for having vetoed any kind of "interesting" modding for many years who knows ?

[FERdeBOER]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Would be very hard work, no question.
But on the other hand, concerning the SDK discussion a few years ago: Who should use such a SDK if the people do not use the possibilities which the sim is providing now?

Because it's a lot of work that has to be done with the DW editor as it is; SCS gave us the scripts and took away the user actions. A combination of both of them would give us many ways of doing fun missions and tutorials in "short" time; plus some options that are present but doesn't work or works bad (Dynamic position + dynamic groups, formations, collisions...) if all of this would have worked well I could have finished several campaigns I started to create...

I would use a SDK

@goldorak
You're right; I would love to know a little programming to try to create such a thing, but I have no time to do that at the moment...

[goldorak]

About the "user actions", have they been eliminated from the code or is it still there somewhere but inactive ?
The same thing happened to video playback during mission briefing, the support is still there (since they recycled a good part of sub command) but is inactive.
A little bit of reverse engineering could expose that capability if of course it is still present in the code. Now WHO would want to embark on such a journey ?

[Neptunus Rex]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Cocerning atmosphere:

A lot of missions lack atmosphere (for my personal taste). I mean for example, not enough messages(communication) and that stuff, no big suprises concerning the 'big' picture of a mission.
Also things like limited AI.

But that could be solved by the community: if you would write a scenario generator, which creates the missions (not completely random but based on scenario-stubs created by a designer) and scenario-dependent doctrines (it is possible) dynamic campaigns + interesting (generated) scenarions seem to be possible.

Would be very hard work, no question.
But on the other hand, concerning the SDK discussion a few years ago: Who should use such a SDK if the people do not use the possibilites which the sim is providing now?

Atmosphere? Then try this.

Take your PC into the smallest room you have. Drag your bed in there too. Take your kitchen trash outside, pour some used motor oil in there and some dirty clothes. Allot of dirty socks too.

Take that bag and throw it into that small room. Don't tie it closed, that's cheating.

Now get a scuba full dive tank with 3000 psig and run a hose from it into the room.

Get some food and a empty can and take that in. (The can is your WC).

Have 12 friends join you in the room.

Close the door and have a friend nail the door closed.

Wait 12 hours in the "game room" to simulate the manuevering watch. Remain standing. Begin game play. Remain standing.

Tell your friend on the outside of the door that when he hears you shoot a torpedo, bang real hard on the door and give a blast of air from the dive tank.

For added fun, if you take a weapon hit and emergency blow, have your friend open the tank valve full open until the tank is empty. For even more fun, have him blow some smoke under the door to simulate a fire. Home Depot carries smoke in a can to test smoke detectors. Remain standing. Here's where your 12 friend in there come in. Tell them when weapons start getting shot, have them all start screaming "What the hell are you doing?" Not in unison, over each other. Tell them to keep this up for 30 to 60 minutes.

After 6 hours of game play, go to sleep for 12. Have your friend outside bang on the door every 15 minutes or so. Tell him when he wakes you to be rude about it. The messenger of the watch has the rest of the on coming watch section to wake up.

Continue game play for 6 more hours.

Continue game play until all food is expended and your WC can is full. Remain standing.

Don't forget to surface the ship and ventilate. Your friend won't open the door until you do.

Update - During game play, you have to announce that you need to take a dump. Your friend outside will open the door and place a sign over your WC can "Danger Blowing Sanitaries". You can't use it with that sign up. Your friend may remove the sign after about 15 minutes, but it sometimes takes as long as an hour. If you cheat and use your can, your friend will come in, stick the air hose in the can, then leave and shut the door. You are not allowed to stop or interfer with him. When he shuts the door, he will open the air valve blowing the contents of the can in "the game room". Remember, you're on watch. If you clean it up, you've left your watch station. Get one of your 12 friends in the room to help but I doubt they will.

[Frame57]

Ahhhh! Neptunus is making me home sick....