Nazi symbols and "immersion": boundaries?

[Buddahaid]

I brought the translations in to show the roots of French are Latin (with words added as no Latin word was available), and support my earlier post regarding western European languages having diverged from the Latin. You stated French was from Normandy. It is my mistake to have included German and English, but I'll research more. It seems you can make many arguments by picking your time-line. Let's see, Charlemagne's surviving eldest son Louis the Pious had three sons. Charles the Bald ruled the western part, Louis the German the eastern part and, Lothaire the middle area from the northern coast to Italy effectively ending the Kingdom of the Franks and the German Christian state of their Grandfather. These became France, Germany, and the Lorraine area that they fight over so much. Charles and Louis signed a treaty in Verdun(843) to help each other if Lothaire were to try and absorb either, and so we see the modern states emerge. It is also notable that we distinguish between states and ethnic origins.

CORRECTION: It was the Strasbourg Oath(842) between Charles and Louis. The Treaty of Verdun(843) established the brothers realms.

On the prime topic, let's examine another symbol and what it represents. What is the basic distinction between the swastika and the red cross on white field the crusaders used. You can argue the Church endorsed genocide in the holy land, and it's symbol is just as tainted. Should it also be banned? Or is there some statute of limitations that applies, a simple matter of time elapsed.

Buddahaid

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

On the prime topic, let's examine another symbol and what it represents. What is the basic distinction between the swastika and the red cross on white field the crusaders used. You can argue the Church endorsed genocide in the holy land, and it's symbol is just as tainted. Should it also be banned? Or is there some statute of limitations that applies, a simple matter of time elapsed.

A good point. As Armistead well knows, there has been a long-running controversy over the flying of the Confederate 'Stars and Bars' over government buildings in the southern United States (the region commonly just called 'The South'). To part of the population the flag represents a fondly-remembered lost way of life. To another part it represents a legacy of subjugation and slavery. Which is right? When I see someone wearing a t-shirt with that flag it means next to nothing to me. A shirt with a red cross means even less, probably not because the the amount of time itself, but rather because that part of history is beyond immediate memory. No-one remembers that it represents anything, so no-one cares.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

A good point. As Armistead well knows, there has been a long-running controversy over the flying of the Confederate 'Stars and Bars' over government buildings in the southern United States (the region commonly just called 'The South'). To part of the population the flag represents a fondly-remembered lost way of life. To another part it represents a legacy of subjugation and slavery. Which is right? When I see someone wearing a t-shirt with that flag it means next to nothing to me. A shirt with a red cross means even less, probably not because the the amount of time itself, but rather because that part of history is beyond immediate memory. No-one remembers that it represents anything, so no-one cares.

Bowing back in......I love Confederate history and the era. We have a Ball to attend this weekend. I love those hoop skirts..

I constantly visit Charleston, SC...some good metal detecting. I don't have a problem with the flag in someones yard, merchants selling, ect. I think it adds to the flavor of the town and the history there. I remember the last big uproar about the flag being flown over government buildings. Every where you went people had confed flags in their yards.

I think it's a silly debate. I know for many it's a heritage concept, but common sense tells us the confederate flag doesn't belong on top of a building that represents taxpayers. The funny thing is every time it comes up, confederate flag sells go up 100% and you can't go anywhere and not see them.

However, like most things it went overboard and people wanted it removed from anything funded by tax dollars. Tourism is the money maker in Charleston. It would be hard to remove the flag from many of the historical buildings that had confederate ties. Many wanted it removed from all public museums, welcome centers, historical sites and even statues.

[Buddahaid]

Someone will always be offended at anything, like me. I'm offended by Barney more than swasikas but I don't have living relatives that were harmed by what it represents, and I think that is the key here. As long as there is living memory of the abuses, it will remain highly controversial.

Buddahaid

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Someone will always be offended at anything, like me. I'm offended by Barney more than swasikas but I don't have living relatives that were harmed by what it represents, and I think that is the key here. As long as there is living memory of the abuses, it will remain highly controversial.

Buddahaid

Yep, if you're going to be totally politically correct you would have to eliminate all flags and symbols. That's why we need to use common sense and seperate reality from fantasy. Look at the damage that was done under the US flag, about every indian could hate it. We treated the Indians as bad as Hitler treated the Jews.

And I wouldn't even want to get into religeous flags or symbols. More people have been killed in the name of religion than all others combined.

Barney offensive......

[Stealhead]

Originally Posted by Urge

Stealhead wrote...



Babelfish translation ...



I think something was lost along the way or I just don't get it.

Urge

It basicly says: You get the cheese and I will bring the white beer then we will find some women.

That is not litteraly what it says but a fulent german would understand it that way.You got some of it right though


You can always use google translate but it is not really perfect it does not always get context like sie can be you or they and erhalten can mean recive or get amoungst other things and I am about at a 3rd grade level with the German grammar but it would be more than enough to get by I am very rusty now used to talk to germans all the time when I was stationed over there.Just dont ever bring a german woman white flowers you will not like the result unless maybe she is very goth in that case the result may be vigorous.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

It basicly says: You get the cheese and I will bring the white beer then we will find some women.

That is not litteraly what it says but a fulent german would understand it that way.You got some of it right though

You can always use google translate but it is not really perfect it does not always get context like sie can be you or they and erhalten can mean recive or get amoungst other things and I am about at a 3rd grade level with the German grammar but it would be more than enough to get by I am very rusty now used to talk to germans all the time when I was stationed over there.Just dont ever bring a german woman white flowers you will not like the result unless maybe she is very goth in that case the result may be vigorous.

actually babelfish got it pretty right here...
In combination with another verb 'wir werden [other verb]' can also mean 'we will [other verb]' but since there is no other verb here it does mean 'become'.
But since you're not a fluent German speaker most germans would understand what you mean and not think you're a transvestite
You're entirely right about Sie, there's one small difference though: you=Sie and they=sie. But since Sie it is the first word of this sentence you can't tell the difference.

Weshalb soll man eigentlich keine weiße Blumen verschenken? Hab das nie gehört... naja, ich bin denn auch nicht Deutsch

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Weshalb soll man eigentlich keine weiße Blumen verschenken? Hab das nie gehört... naja, ich bin denn auch nicht Deutsch

Ist mir auch neu.
Never heard of that too. But maybe it differs from region to region. I think most Americans are stationed in the south of Germany, well you know Southerners are always different, no matter the country.

*Edit*
O.K. asked around a little and it seems that white flowers are usually used on graves only.

[Stealhead]

Yeah I recall they told everyone that during the culturial breifing they give out to all the folks who come in each week. Pretty useful info you any single men unless of course the girl is goth then like I said it may have a very positive reaction.
I guess I would talk in german better than type it I never really focused much on writting it.I found most germans if they realized you spoke a little german they gave you alot more respect becasue you showed the respect to at least speak a little german rather than be the "I speak English you kraut(insert insult for other nation jerk american might be) so I wont bother saying thank you or hello or know how to order food and drink in german."
By the way I once saw a drunken american solider call a german cop a stupid f...... kraut even though the two cops where actually being very nice to him and one said in english "Sir your nose is bleeding." and solider wiped his nose and it was not and he said "what are you talking about?"
the cop then punched him dead on the nose and said "Your nose is bleeding." The solider deserved it though he had been talking some big time crap and this was a DUI stop so he was endangering peoples lives. Some americans tried to rat the germans to the MPs but they where outnubmered by the americans who lied for the germans.And many MP felt that if flapped your mouth to a german cop you deserved the german responce.

Another thing they told us was not to turn down a german's who considers you a friend inviataion to a party or event (unless for very good reason) because it can be taken as an insult not to want to come.

I think it is a good idea to have a basic understanding of a nations language and culture if you are going to be there. In some cases something that would mean nothing to you could be an extreme insult in another culture. Some people stationed in Germany did not leave base much or they went to only places where mainly other americans went...boring. My friends and I went to the bars where the local germans went it was much more fun and you got to know people.What a shame for the ones who "stayed on the reservation" they missed out.

I liked the diffrent festivals that you could find from town to town and the weekend markets you dont see this kind of thing much in the US.Also while drinking with germans your fluency in german goes up notabily.I was in Kaiserslautern by the way Schroeder dont know where you are from I went to most parts of germany at some but not much along the coast.


At Darkfish yeah I did mess that one part up a bit though it would sound kind of funny to hear someone say it that way you would be pretty drunk to become a woman.I would assume that Dutch is largely simular to german or is more like Spanish to Portuguese? There was a guy in my unit who figured a good ice breaker for him when talking to a german woman would be say something funny so he came up with the line:My underwear smells like chocolate. I dont think it was a great success for him he usualy went to red light district in the end so much so that "Red Light" became his nickname maybe he gave out too many white flowers.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

You make it sound like everyone should treat the whole subject of U-boat warfare as taboo and there shouldn't be games about it. Do you feel that way about IL2 Sturmovik? You can fly Nazi planes in that game.

You are incorrect. You cannot fly a 'Nazi plane' as that would imply that the plane stood in line at the Nazi party HQ and paid its membership and then pinned its Nazi symbol on its self. Given the Nazi's views on 'sub-humans' I'm pretty sure inanimate objects would not be allowed to join the Nazi party, amazing as a talking plane that wanted to be a Nazi party member would have been. Though, if any instances of any truck ever joining the Nazi party are found, then that may well give credance to the rumours I keep hearing of 'Nazi trucks'. Leave the machines alone and let the humans take the blame - they had the free choice as to join or not.

Having a German plane flown by a Nazi, is of course different, as that human made the choice to join the Nazi party and support its cause, but don't blame the plane for its pilot's choice. To have any such thing close to this in IL2, you would have to be a Nazi, flying a German plane, but as no one can be a member of the Nazi party now, you can only wish for it and it will never happen.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Joe S

One more comment, a great many books on the subject state that U-boat crews who were captured and interrogated were almost always described as fanatical Nazis. I dont know that I believe that they all were fanatical Nazis, but that is how the British apparently viewed them. Joe S

That's a bit ambiguous, saying that a great many books say that U-boat crews were described as Nazis... that doesn't really mean a lot, as it could be that a great many books, all used the same source that described U-boat crews as Nazis, instead of a lot of independant sources described U-boat crews as Nazis - see the difference? From what I have read, the propoganda of the day was that most U-boat crews were expected to be dyed-in-the-wool Nazis, but in practice this was different. If you read U-Boat Killer, you will read a frank account of the behaviour of the captured crews and how much respect they had for their captains, whether for the better or not. Some crews were completely loyal to their commander and highly efficient, other crews had distain for their commander, who they viewed as cowards, which was bourne out as they were the first to abandon ship when their U-boat was sinking. There are good and bad seaman on each side. Those fast tracked to command by virtue of being a fanatical Nazi party member were probably not good command material from the start.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

At Darkfish yeah I did mess that one part up a bit though it would sound kind of funny to hear someone say it that way you would be pretty drunk to become a woman.I would assume that Dutch is largely simular to german or is more like Spanish to Portuguese?

Either drunk or just been promoted to "Wild Night in Bangkok"
Dutch words are usually very similar to their German counterparts (one crazy exception: Dutch "zee" (sea) is German "Meer" while Dutch "meer" (lake) is German "See") but Dutch grammar is much easier, almost identical to English grammar.
Example:
English: The dog bites the man and the woman
Dutch: De hond bijt de man en de vrouw
German: Der Hund beißt den Mann und die Frau

If you'd turn these sentences around, keep the cases and delete the woman (because of singular/plural problems):
English: The man bites the dog
Dutch: De man bijt de hond ---- now means: The man bites the dog, just as in English
German: Den Mann beißt der Hund ---- still means "The dog bites the man"
To get the same meaning as in English it would be: "Der Mann beißt den Hund"

[karamazovnew]

As far as fighting skills go, I place the germans along side the Spartans. If wars would only be fought and felt on emtpy battlefields, I'd despise wars less. Soldiers are only humans, once they are conscripted, they bring with them all of their education and morality that was forged during their civilian life. Drowned in propaganda, seeing their friends die daily, that base of their conscience dictates if they remain human or turn into monsters. Since the germans were by large more educated and disciplined than many other nations, it's no wonder that we are more appaled by the Holocaust than the russian death wave of the 30's. In both cases however, only the the leaders can be blamed. We call them the nazis and their symbol was the swastika (the entire flag I mean). If I want to honor the bravery of the soldiers, I don't need that symbol. The true german symbols are the Iron Cross and the Eagle.

[Rockin Robbins]

Mookie was merely twisting my position into something it is not. I play and mod the German side of the war, as everyone knows. I don't have a clue why mookie would say something as clearly false as that. I guess in an Internet discussion anything goes as long as it scores "points."

The whole point of a simulation is to answer the question "what if?" In this case, what if the Germans had followed different tactics, could the U-Boat have won the war? My conclusion has been that no change in tactics or even advancing the state of the U-Boat beyond 1920 would have resulted in a German victory in the Battle of the Atlantic, much less the war.

Tactically, the Germans would have been much better served by being much less aggressive. They could have wiped out France and Poland, taking the necessary Low Countries in the bargain (you were just in the way, sorry we bumped you!). If the U-Boats had been coastal defense only, the British would not have been so inflamed. The Battle of Britain iced the cake.

Totalitarian regimes are free to act aggressively. Even when provoked, it is very difficult to move a republic or constitutional monarchy to the tipping point where they are wholeheartedly committed to death and destruction. They always contain large groups of supplicators who believe that peace is the greatest good, no matter what, and nothing is worth the price of a single soldier's life.

Just look at the US today, with the radical Islamics at war with us and our official stance is to pretend there is no war. We'll pay for that. Also look at the stance of English peaceniks during the Napoleonic period, who were vicious in their politics of destruction toward the Duke of York and those who saw the need to defeat Napolean.

Hitler didn't understand the dynamics of popularly elected government, and so was unable to take advantage of its characteristics in order to have a greater chance of victory, U-Boats or no U-Boats. But as it was, the U-Boats were responsible for the resolve of the British and the presence of the Americans. Without both of those, the Germans would easily have won.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

You are incorrect. You cannot fly a 'Nazi plane' as that would imply that the plane stood in line at the Nazi party HQ and paid its membership and then pinned its Nazi symbol on its self. Given the Nazi's views on 'sub-humans' I'm pretty sure inanimate objects would not be allowed to join the Nazi party, amazing as a talking plane that wanted to be a Nazi party member would have been. Though, if any instances of any truck ever joining the Nazi party are found, then that may well give credance to the rumours I keep hearing of 'Nazi trucks'. Leave the machines alone and let the humans take the blame - they had the free choice as to join or not.

Having a German plane flown by a Nazi, is of course different, as that human made the choice to join the Nazi party and support its cause, but don't blame the plane for its pilot's choice. To have any such thing close to this in IL2, you would have to be a Nazi, flying a German plane, but as no one can be a member of the Nazi party now, you can only wish for it and it will never happen.

Hear that, Jay Jay the Jet plane? Your party membership is hereby cancelled!




In all seriousness, I'm guilty as charged on that one. I should have been more clearer when describing a plane flown by the Nazi ruling regime in Germany circa WW2... But it also proves the point I was trying to make...sailing a U-boat in a sim doesn't make me a Nazi. I'm not sailing for the glory of the Fatherland. I'm having fun sinking pixels with the same weapons and abilities a U-boat carried in the same situations a U-boat would have encountered. Because I like to place myself in the same situations they were in is a far cry from furthering the goals of Nazi era Germany or their ideology now or then.

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Mookie was merely twisting my position into something it is not. I play and mod the German side of the war, as everyone knows. I don't have a clue why mookie would say something as clearly false as that. I guess in an Internet discussion anything goes as long as it scores "points."

Another mea culpa for me. I thought your position at the time was that playing a U-boat sim was inherently bad as it supported the Nazi position. I now understand that you were talking about forum signatures displaying Nazi symbolism.