Most accurate Targeting method?

[CassiousClay]

What is the most accurate targeting method we can use? Is there one that's guaranteed to hit every time?

[derstosstrupp]

A shot is only as good as the underlying data - AOB, speed, and range. However, some approaches are better than others. Assuming you reasonably accurately determine AOB and speed, you can all but eliminate range by turning so that the gyro angle of the shot is near zero, in practice maybe within 20 degrees of your bow. This is what you should strive to achieve. Then all you need is an eyeballed, rough range at best.

Also strive to get below 1000 m. This mitigates the effect of AOB and speed errors. For example, at 1000 m and a 90 degree approach, you’re allowed up to a knot of speed error and 10 degrees of AOB error.

So in summary:
Approach the target roughly perpendicularly to under 1000 m (but not below 300!) and set yourself up so that the gyro angle is near zero at the shot. This will eliminate range as a source of error, and minimize the impact of possible errors in other data.

Here is one of my videos demonstrating these concepts:

[CassiousClay]

I've been attempting the practice session in the Historical Missions Menu for TDC. In that scenario the target ship is always within 1000m to 800m or less but more than 300 by the time I get everything done and shoot.

I figured out how to launch TDW's tutorial text with automation. It's impossible to follow because the instructions aren't very detailed or accurate. And, of course, the game is buggy as hell. For example when the tutorial text says to draw a line with the ruler through the ship from the last point marked (one of the X's we used to figure out the speed) when I try to do that it's impossible to do and extremely irritating because when I draw the line to the edge of the map it doesn't reach anywhere near where my sub is and when I try to move the map with the arrow keys the crew changes the rudder angle, starts the engines, and starts moving the sub changing position which throws all the calculations I did previously off. Then the tool disappears. The tool is still active but it won't let me draw on the map.
VERY FRUSTRATING. Not helping. lol

Because of the game doing that it's impossible for me to draw a course line through the target with the ruler or use the protractor to draw a 90° angle reference to follow and position my ship with. I can't do it because the game doesn't let me.

The automation tutorial text also says to get the speed by timing it for 5 minutes. By the time the 5 minutes is up the target ship is either right on 90° and I don't have time to fire in time, or it's past the port side of my sub well out of the zone where it's possible for a torpedo to hit it.

The attack disk is confusing and doesn't seem accurate. I don't have the patience to sit through watching every second of an hour long video that's mostly the author chatting about everything and anything else other than how to use the attack disk or whatever they're attempting to explain.
It's possible I've watched every TDC video there is on youtube by now and none of them have helped. They've either annoyed, irritated, or caused more confusion because:

- they conflict and contradict each other with the information they share / how to do it. One person will say "do this" another will say "don't do that, there's no need to". One person will use the attack disk, another doesn't use it at all. Same with the RAOBF one will use it another will not.

That only adds to confusion and frustration.

- what they're doing in the video doesn't match what's on my screen. Even in the same exact scenario / mission.

I haven't been able to learn from videos because of that.

[derstosstrupp]

You can zoom out on the map. Click to place the ruler where you want, mouse wheel out. WASD to move.

The speed timing doesn’t need to be for 5 minutes. Minute or 2 is probably fine. An easy way to get speed also is to point your bow in front of the target, your scope to 0 bearing and wait til his bow crosses the wire, starting the stopwatch. When the stern crosses, stop the time. Take target length / seconds * 1.94 for his speed.

Attack disc is accurate. You just need to learn it. Check my channel for the slide rule series.

These things have a steep learning curve requiring patience. My “chatty” video is long but it covers EXACTLY what to do to sink a ship. Granted it’s without map contacts which it sounds like you are using to learn and that’s fine. That just makes it that much easier for you.

Maybe at this point be less concerned about targeting methods and more about getting comfortable with the interface. Then return to targeting. One step at a time. I for example use a pretty standard TWOS setup so what you see on my screen should align with what you see.

I might also point you to the how-to thread in the SH5 area - have you used that?

[CassiousClay]

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

You can zoom out on the map. Click to place the ruler where you want, mouse wheel out.

Attack disc is accurate. You just need to learn it. Check my channel for the slide rule series.

These things have a steep learning curve requiring patience. My “chatty” video is long but it covers EXACTLY what to do to sink a ship. Granted it’s without map contacts which it sounds like you are using to learn and that’s fine. That just makes it that much easier for you.

Maybe at this point be less concerned about targeting methods and more about getting comfortable with the interface. Then return to targeting. One step at a time. I for example use a pretty standard TWOS setup so what you see on my screen should align with what you see.

I might also point you to the how-to thread in the SH5 area - have you used that?

Thank you very much!


Yes. I've seen and read the SH5 how-to thread. Letter for letter and I've used both the browsers text search feature and the search feature here on the forums to try and find the tutorials I need to watch or read to learn everything. As I said I'm getting confused because of how different persons preferences on how they do things conflict one another with another persons preference who's taken the time to share a tutorial. All appreciated! Very much!

I've currently moved on, for now, to SH3 (GWX Gold) and like it a lot better. I have SH5 TWoS to flip to when I finish or get bored with it.

I predict I will get frustrated again with not knowing how to do things, especially targeting. If I can't target I can't sink ships = I can't complete missions as I think I should with a positive score other than the points we get for just surviving and completing it.

I will check out the rest of your channel. I already have been surfing your SH videos, even before you answered here. Please consider making playlists if you will. Much easier to find what we're trying to find that way when we find your channel.

SH3 seems to run and work so much better than SH5. I'm having a blast jammin out to the gramaphone as I'm on my way to die :P hahahaha
Hoping I manage to finally sink my first ship on a mission this time. We'll see!
I think this mission requires me to at least sink one merchant ship on the patrol. The last mission I did let me complete it without sinking any.

I only ran in to one contact that I lost the contact of. I couldn't figure out how to plot an intercept course to it to even attempt shooting at it. It was behind me and 8km away. Lost contact by the time I figured out how to draw a 90° attack plan and get my ship going the right direction toward it.
Noobnees. Time heals!

[Drakken]

Are you playing with map contacts update on? I'd advise that you practice with these on first to learn the basics. There's no shame in baby steps. Another advantage of playing with map updates on is that you can actually see the target and the torpedo's projected course on the attack map.

When you feel comfortable and reliably sink targets with updates on, then you can then turn those off.

1. Speed: The cornerstone of any firing solution. Unless you're spotted or she starts zig-zagging, it is the only data point that remains constant throughout the attack. Practice by using the map to mark the target's distance travelled in 3:15 minutes, and compare with other speed acquisition methods as you practice. I used to check the speed 2-3 times with different methods, but the constant bearing method and matching the target's course and speed are the historical ones (and quite easy to learn).

2. AOB: Trace the target's course on the map with the protractor, then create an angle from his middle to your bow. That's the AOB. Eyeball it, practice with the Attack disk to match both your and her course, her bearing, and the AOB. You could also use also a visual chart to eyeball and compare with the target's angle. Keep in mind that sharper the AOB is, the easier it is to eyeball; example, it is much easier to distinguish a 10- from a 20-degree AOB than a 60- from a 75-degree AOB.

3. Range: Measure range with a ruler on the map, then practice either with the stadimeter or, if you can use it, learn to handle the RAOBF with the tick marks. It may look complicated at first, but when you get the basics it becomes very easy to use. The shortest the range you fire from, the more error-tolerant your solution will be.

The ideal firing solution is, while keeping stealth, striving to fire from the shortest range possible (but never under 300 meters), at the lowest gyroangle possible (ideally 0 gyroangle from your bow), when the target offers itself the broadest (so 75-90 degrees AOB). This is not always possible and, sometimes, you may have to plot a firing solution from guestimates or positions that are not ideal. However, the more comfortable you will become the more informed your guesses will be in a pinch.

My point is, there is no single "most accurate targeting method". In time, you will acquire different methods in your toolset that you may use to acquire the data needed to fire and hit your target, dependent on the situation.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Drakken

Are you playing with map contacts update on? I'd advise that you practice with these on first to learn the basics. There's no shame in baby steps. Another advantage of playing with map updates on is that you can actually see the target and the torpedo's projected course on the attack map.

When you feel comfortable and reliably sink targets with updates on, then you can then turn those off.

1. Speed: The cornerstone of any firing solution. Unless you're spotted or she starts zig-zagging, it is the only data point that remains constant throughout the attack. Practice by using the map to mark the target's distance travelled in 3:15 minutes, and compare with other speed acquisition methods as you practice. I used to check the speed 2-3 times with different methods, but the constant bearing method and matching the target's course and speed are the historical ones (and quite easy to learn).

2. AOB: Trace the target's course on the map with the protractor, then create an angle from his middle to your bow. That's the AOB. Eyeball it, practice with the Attack disk to match both your and her course, her bearing, and the AOB. You could also use also a visual chart to eyeball and compare with the target's angle. Keep in mind that sharper the AOB is, the easier it is to eyeball; example, it is much easier to distinguish a 10- from a 20-degree AOB than a 60- from a 75-degree AOB.

3. Range: Measure range with a ruler on the map, then practice either with the stadimeter or, if you can use it, learn to handle the RAOBF with the tick marks. It may look complicated at first, but when you get the basics it becomes very easy to use. The shortest the range you fire from, the more error-tolerant your solution will be.

The ideal firing solution is, while keeping stealth, striving to fire from the shortest range possible (but never under 300 meters), at the lowest gyroangle possible (ideally 0 gyroangle from your bow), when the target offers itself the broadest (so 75-90 degrees AOB). This is not always possible and, sometimes, you may have to plot a firing solution from guestimates or positions that are not ideal. However, the more comfortable you will become the more informed your guesses will be in a pinch.

My point is, there is no single "most accurate targeting method". In time, you will acquire different methods in your toolset that you may use to acquire the data needed to fire and hit your target, dependent on the situation.

I'll add its very easy to figure out a target's course and what yours should be via eyeballing if one would rather not bother with an attack disk.
Also, nothing wrong with breaking off an attack to try for a more favorable firing solution/position vs. wasting torpedoes/an attack.

[CassiousClay]

Originally Posted by Drakken

Are you playing with map contacts update on? I'd advise that you practice with these on first to learn the basics. There's no shame in baby steps. Another advantage of playing with map updates on is that you can actually see the target and the torpedo's projected course on the attack map.

When you feel comfortable and reliably sink targets with updates on, then you can then turn those off.

1. Speed: The cornerstone of any firing solution. Unless you're spotted or she starts zig-zagging, it is the only data point that remains constant throughout the attack. Practice by using the map to mark the target's distance travelled in 3:15 minutes, and compare with other speed acquisition methods as you practice. I used to check the speed 2-3 times with different methods, but the constant bearing method and matching the target's course and speed are the historical ones (and quite easy to learn).

2. AOB: Trace the target's course on the map with the protractor, then create an angle from his middle to your bow. That's the AOB. Eyeball it, practice with the Attack disk to match both your and her course, her bearing, and the AOB. You could also use also a visual chart to eyeball and compare with the target's angle. Keep in mind that sharper the AOB is, the easier it is to eyeball; example, it is much easier to distinguish a 10- from a 20-degree AOB than a 60- from a 75-degree AOB.

3. Range: Measure range with a ruler on the map, then practice either with the stadimeter or, if you can use it, learn to handle the RAOBF with the tick marks. It may look complicated at first, but when you get the basics it becomes very easy to use. The shortest the range you fire from, the more error-tolerant your solution will be.

The ideal firing solution is, while keeping stealth, striving to fire from the shortest range possible (but never under 300 meters), at the lowest gyroangle possible (ideally 0 gyroangle from your bow), when the target offers itself the broadest (so 75-90 degrees AOB). This is not always possible and, sometimes, you may have to plot a firing solution from guestimates or positions that are not ideal. However, the more comfortable you will become the more informed your guesses will be in a pinch.

My point is, there is no single "most accurate targeting method". In time, you will acquire different methods in your toolset that you may use to acquire the data needed to fire and hit your target, dependent on the situation.

Thank you very much for this! Yes, I have map updates and all the map options on. The font of coordinates are too dim of a color for me to read so I have the tactical map option on although I'm clueless what the difference is other than one adds coordinates to the grid (that I can't see so they're frustrating and useless to have on anyway).

I've asked several times on several resources how to modify text colors and sizes in the game and am honestly frustrated that none of them have gotten even an "I don't know if there is a way to do that." reply.

Questions, if you'd please be kind enough to answer:

1. Why 3 minutes 15 seconds? For me that's a bit long of a period of time to wait. Is there some reason, besides the multiplier being a lot easier (10), that 3:15 is more accurate? I've been using the chart and 1 minute to figure out speed. Is there a fault in doing it with 1 minute?


2. The attack disk and RAOBF is the most confusing thing for me as of now, and still (I've only played 6 hours. I'll probably get it eventually.) I've been getting AOB with the protractor starting on my ship, drawing the first line to the target ship, then drawing the angle line straight off the target ship's bow center point and dragging the angle line out past my ship's path.
To get a 90° attack position I've then been using the protractor over the angle line again and drawing the angle line at a 90 to my ship, then plotting a course to that line so when I get there I'm really close to 90° from the target ship's side. If I'm not dead on a 90 by the time I get there I don't have to wait long until TDC zeros out (target lock and follow). I fire when TDC gyroangle and the other dial next to it zeros.
The times I've been successful in practicing it that's how I did it.
Is there an advantage to the way you explained to do it vs this way?


3. I don't know what the stadimeter is or where it is in the game to even consider using it. And as I said the attack disk and RAOBF (the dial thing in the periscope???) is waaaayyyyyyy beyond my understanding at this point. I am 100% clueless as to what either of those 3 things even do. I've watched videos on the attack disk and RAOBF and the videos confused me more because one person says this another person that posts a tutorial on it says that. Which is it???


Yeah. What I've been doing is a lot of guessing, trial and (mostly haha) error. I understand that's the most efficient and definitely not the best way to do targeting and course plotting but it's all I'm able to do.

[CassiousClay]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

I'll add its very easy to figure out a target's course and what yours should be via eyeballing if one would rather not bother with an attack disk.
Also, nothing wrong with breaking off an attack to try for a more favorable firing solution/position vs. wasting torpedoes/an attack.

Yeah I've been doing quite a bit of both wasting torpedoes and losing contact with targets because I don't figure out how to get in position soon enough. Is there an option somewhere to enable 'infinite ammo' so I don't run out of torpedoes and have to go somewhere to resupply or quit and reload a save or start a new session?

I wouldn't want to play a career mode game with such a thing enabled but it would be extremely helpful for practice sessions.

[derstosstrupp]

Are you a member of the Subsim Discord server? Some night we should connect on there for a screen share and I can help you with some of these items.

[Sickents]

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

Are you a member of the Subsim Discord server? Some night we should connect on there for a screen share and I can help you with some of these items.

this would be good for him, I have spent a far bit of time on steam voice with him trying to teach, but maybe I don't explain things clearly enough, sometimes it's not the student's fault but the teacher's fault for not being able to explain in a term the student can understand and memorize

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by CassiousClay

Yeah I've been doing quite a bit of both wasting torpedoes and losing contact with targets because I don't figure out how to get in position soon enough. Is there an option somewhere to enable 'infinite ammo' so I don't run out of torpedoes and have to go somewhere to resupply or quit and reload a save or start a new session?

I wouldn't want to play a career mode game with such a thing enabled but it would be extremely helpful for practice sessions.

I'd imagine there is a mod already made or one you can do to get unlimited torpedoes but unfortunately I don't know where either would be. Maybe someone else can chime in.
Sounds like you might want to follow the KISS principle, which isn't a bad thing and is historically correct anyway.
One good start on that is to get 90 degree angle attacks down pat and then if desired, try something else.

To do so simply parallel track a convoy maintaining a fairly constant distance from the nearest ship and the same speed. Doing so and you already have a targets course and speed without touching a thing.
Draw a line representing the target course, get ahead of the target continuing on that parallel course and when far enough ahead turn into the 90 degree intercept course heading. I.e., say the target is traveling 025 degrees. Simply add (if you're on port side of target) or subtract (if you're on starboard side of target) 90 from that 025 heading and that is the heading you need to go.
Targets can easily be hit from 3500 meters or less. But don't let your boat/scope be seen.
There's plenty of do this/don't do that I could add but that would only confuse things and make something simple, unnecessarily complex, plus I bet you'd learn fast enough by practicing yourself. Maybe just work on even just getting into position to shoot before worrying about actual targeting. This method has a very easy and accurate targeting method too.

It's the only way I attack. Get inside a convoy and you can easily fire from both bow and stern with it.

What is your mod setup ? Knowing that may lead to get missions to practice with.

[CassiousClay]

Originally Posted by derstosstrupp

Are you a member of the Subsim Discord server? Some night we should connect on there for a screen share and I can help you with some of these items.

I'd really appreciate that level of help but I avoid Discord. Steam?

Originally Posted by Sickents

this would be good for him, I have spent a far bit of time on steam voice with him trying to teach, but maybe I don't explain things clearly enough, sometimes it's not the student's fault but the teacher's fault for not being able to explain in a term the student can understand and memorize

You're instruction was awesome and very much appreciated!!!
My bad memory is at fault for why I can't consistently do it. I'm not doing one of the steps or something. I wish I would have recorded video of it so I had something like that to go back to and ID the things I'm not doing that's causing the failures. If I get a chance to do that again with someone I'd like to record it so we don't have to do it again.

We didn't cover the attack disk and RAOBF which is fine with me. Those tools seem really accurate. There's obviously other ways to do targeting without using them. Are they as quick as using the disk tools? Are they more accurate? And of course I know it comes down to what works best for me personally of all the ways there is to do it. So far what you showed me, Sickents, is a way of doing it I'm comfortable with. If only I could remember or ID what I'm screwing up...
I'm not sure I want to learn how to use the Attack disk but I'm not going to throw the idea of learning it out. I've seen people say the RAOBF and attack disk are quicker than measuring and timing and calculating but the length of videos I've seen of people using them say different.

Some videos are a few short minutes. Others are an hour+ I have a hard time sitting through and watching all of.

I was just watching this one and it doesn't make any sense to me where he's getting the numbers from.



I know this is the SH5 forum. Examples. The games are similar enough aren't they? It seems targeting and plotting a course is the same basic concept in all these sub sim games.

His screen is drastically different than my SH3 GWX3 (Gold). I don't have that chronometer at the top right on my screen it's just the ship info note thing and my buttons and dials aren't in the same place. Is it a different ship or different mods than I'm running?
I know it doesn't really matter where the dials are knowing what they do and how to use them is the important part I don't know and need to learn.

Then the my memory sucks thing. I can't remember everything explained in a 14 minute video when I'm playing to apply it.

[CassiousClay]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

I'd imagine there is a mod already made or one you can do to get unlimited torpedoes but unfortunately I don't know where either would be. Maybe someone else can chime in.
Sounds like you might want to follow the KISS principle, which isn't a bad thing and is historically correct anyway.
One good start on that is to get 90 degree angle attacks down pat and then if desired, try something else.

To do so simply parallel track a convoy maintaining a fairly constant distance from the nearest ship and the same speed. Doing so and you already have a targets course and speed without touching a thing.
Draw a line representing the target course, get ahead of the target continuing on that parallel course and when far enough ahead turn into the 90 degree intercept course heading. I.e., say the target is traveling 025 degrees. Simply add (if you're on port side of target) or subtract (if you're on starboard side of target) 90 from that 025 heading and that is the heading you need to go.
Targets can easily be hit from 3500 meters or less. But don't let your boat/scope be seen.
There's plenty of do this/don't do that I could add but that would only confuse things and make something simple, unnecessarily complex, plus I bet you'd learn fast enough by practicing yourself. Maybe just work on even just getting into position to shoot before worrying about actual targeting. This method has a very easy and accurate targeting method too.

It's the only way I attack. Get inside a convoy and you can easily fire from both bow and stern with it.

What is your mod setup ? Knowing that may lead to get missions to practice with.

Yeah I'm doing the "KISS" method for several reasons.
1. It's historically accurate to do it that way.
2. It's easiest.
3. Fastest, at least for now until I do figure out how to learn the other methods.

I'm only running TWoS in SH5 but I'm primarily playing and like SH3 better (less bugs = less frustration especially when learning). I have GWX3 Gold version on SH3. I don't have any mods activated for SH3.
I did install the TDC Practice mission for SH3 but haven't played again since i threw it in. I'm not even sure I installed it right, I put the .mis file in the singlemissions folder. I tried the JSGME method the download description says to do but I couldn't find it anywhere in the game doing that.

[Sickents]

Originally Posted by CassiousClay

I'd really appreciate that level of help but I avoid Discord. Steam?



You're instruction was awesome and very much appreciated!!!
My bad memory is at fault for why I can't consistently do it. I'm not doing one of the steps or something. I wish I would have recorded video of it so I had something like that to go back to and ID the things I'm not doing that's causing the failures. If I get a chance to do that again with someone I'd like to record it so we don't have to do it again.

We didn't cover the attack disk and RAOBF which is fine with me. Those tools seem really accurate. There's obviously other ways to do targeting without using them. Are they as quick as using the disk tools? Are they more accurate? And of course I know it comes down to what works best for me personally of all the ways there is to do it. So far what you showed me, Sickents, is a way of doing it I'm comfortable with. If only I could remember or ID what I'm screwing up...
I'm not sure I want to learn how to use the Attack disk but I'm not going to throw the idea of learning it out. I've seen people say the RAOBF and attack disk are quicker than measuring and timing and calculating but the length of videos I've seen of people using them say different.

Some videos are a few short minutes. Others are an hour+ I have a hard time sitting through and watching all of.

I was just watching this one and it doesn't make any sense to me where he's getting the numbers from.



I know this is the SH5 forum. Examples. The games are similar enough aren't they? It seems targeting and plotting a course is the same basic concept in all these sub sim games.

His screen is drastically different than my SH3 GWX3 (Gold). I don't have that chronometer at the top right on my screen it's just the ship info note thing and my buttons and dials aren't in the same place. Is it a different ship or different mods than I'm running?
I know it doesn't really matter where the dials are knowing what they do and how to use them is the important part I don't know and need to learn.

Then the my memory sucks thing. I can't remember everything explained in a 14 minute video when I'm playing to apply it.

the way I showed you is the simplest beginner way I could think of, the attack disk is the next step, the way I showed you of doing it on the map with map contacts on if done correctly is 100% accurate, the 3 mins 15 secs variant of speed calculation is more accurate then the 1-minute speed calculation, I should have showed you the 3 min 15-sec variant as opposed to the quick 1 min calculations, that is my fault, with the 1 min method you need to round up and round down the measurement to the chart as the ruler only does intervals of 50 meters, so the ruler will show 200 when it might actually be 248, kinda need to move the ruler on that final mark back and forth and see if it's closer to 200 or to 250 meters , being 1 knot out at 1000 meters is ok though providing they are not doing above 12 knots you should still hit the target if your firing with-in 1000 meters.

the 3 min 15 method is simple though, set a mark on the bow of the ship, time it for 3 mins 15 sec.s, make another mark on the bow of ship, now say the ruler reads 400 meters, the ship is doing 4 knots, 700 meters is 7 knots, 1400 meters is 14 knots

the above video is very very good and informative , if you are ready to take the next step, follow his instructions