Can this game issue be fixed.

[Armistead]

One stupid thing I hate about his game, almost always if a group spots you, they do two things.

Start small zigging...smart
Slow down...stupid.

Historically we know if groups thought a sub was around they sped up as fast as they can go, maybe zig depending on the group. In game they slow down. A tactic many here use to catch a faster group is to "get found out" somehow so the group will slow down.

Obvious some "speed switch" must exist to get ships to slow down. Instead of slowing, why not speed them up.

However, I do notice some of the larger RSRD concoys, instead of zigging, ships often peel off in several directions and as the group reforms, many hit high speeds to catch up. This is more realistic, but still the overall group speed will be lower once the group forms. TF never do this, just zig and slow down.

Also, the auto zig pattern has such short legs, it basically useless, would love to increase this leg, not by much, but enough that could throw you off in left field.

Take the Center Force. It has legs it outruns your subs best speed, need to catch it and slow it down, just get found out.

Anybody has a clue where to find these settings, let me know please.

[EricW]

I've always equated their loss of speed with the fact they go to full rudder as they begin to zig.......I've had some turn away after one of my torps either missed or was a dud and they accelerated away.......but only a few have done this. Most just start to zig if you're detected, which slows them down....which makes them easier to hit if you're close. I'm sorry, I don't have an answer, but I feel your pain.

[Armistead]

No, the zig doesn't change the overall speed. A group can be going say 19kts and if they sense you, slow down to 12-14 kts. They do lose a lil speed in their small zig turns, but usually no more than 1kt.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Armistead

One stupid thing I hate about his game, almost always if a group spots you, they do two things.

Start small zigging...smart
Slow down...stupid.

Historically we know if groups thought a sub was around they sped up as fast as they can go, maybe zig depending on the group. In game they slow down. A tactic many here use to catch a faster group is to "get found out" somehow so the group will slow down.

Obvious some "speed switch" must exist to get ships to slow down. Instead of slowing, why not speed them up.

I think the slowing down is a result of putting the rudder hard over. I know I slow down a lot when make a sharp turn. The ship/sub physics seem to be pretty lousy, in general. I have no idea how to fix this sort of thing, (assuming it can be fixed).

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by TorpX

I think the slowing down is a result of putting the rudder hard over. I know I slow down a lot when make a sharp turn. The ship/sub physics seem to be pretty lousy, in general. I have no idea how to fix this sort of thing, (assuming it can be fixed).

Again, you can see a big difference in the original slow down speed and the minor speed changes that happen during the zig legs. I've never seen zig leg speed changes more than 2kts, unless they speed up or slow down to dodge torps. I'm speaking to the big speed change when you're spotted, when a group can slow many knots. I've seen TF slow down from 22 to 14 knots, then you have to deal with minor speed zig legs.

[TorpX]

The main point I'm trying to make is that you really have no good way of knowing why they are slowing down. How do you measure their speed? This must be done over time and gives you only a mean value, not an instantanious value. The physics model seems to give a large speed drop when you turn (that's what I've seen anyway), probably too high. You said that they go into a short leg, zig pattern. This means they are making frequent turns. It therefore stands to reason, they are slowing because of the rudder drag effects. A zig pattern with longer legs would allow greater speed and might be more realistic.

If you are talking about DD's, they must slow to use their sound equiptment. If you are talking about merchant convoys, one must consider that some of the ships might be going at, or near, their maximum speed to begin with. There is also the matter of collision avoidance. I don't think it makes sense to just assume that enemy ships use a "speed switch" to slow down.

[razark]

Originally Posted by TorpX

How do you measure their speed? This must be done over time and gives you only a mean value, not an instantanious value.

Auto-targeting give you the speed when you lock onto the target, if I'm remembering correctly. You should be able to verify if the ship is slowing down that way.

[Armistead]

It's easy to see how they change speed if you have contacts on, even without. I can get speed with 3 minute rule using radar or scope visuals. The easiest way to test it is just to cut auto target on and you get a constant speed through the scope.

It's always been obvious a group will slow down greatly once you're found out, with cams on you can see fast to medium to slow ratings. This is much different than the small zig legs they make when they go into evasion mode, not to be confused with possible zig or speed changes from waypoint settings.

The main group will hold the set speed given to that group, they only slow and go into evasion mode when they know your sub is there. The main group, not the escorts will hold that set speed. If a ship is set to act as an escort, it can roam around the group on escort duty changing speed.

If you want to test it, just use auto target, and watch the speed changes during small the small evasion zigs, they never average over 2kts, usually 1kt.

Take my recent attack on the Center Force. I stayed out of range, speed was 22 knots. I needed to do a end around, but group was going too fast, so I simply slipped into it's radar range to get found out. The group slowed down to 14kts and started zigging. I sped away and got out of radar range, DD's came, but I was long gone before they reached where radar had me. Now it was easy to do a end around, I had the group slower than I. Historically the group would have increased speed and left me further behind. I find this a terrible flaw, because in the end I can make most groups slow down and pull off my attack.

Sometimes once a group clears you, I assume contact has been lost over a set time limit, they increase back up to the set waypoint speed.

It's possible because the zig legs are so short, that somehow limits overall speed. The bigger issue for me is the short zig legs. They're so short, it's more like the ship is just helming left and right. Zigs are supposed to leave you way off track, but that just doesn't happen in the game. If you could increase the zig leg to even 1000 yards, that would help greatly.

To me this is the biggest cheat in the game, get found out to slow a group down, I know many that do it.

[TorpX]

Take my recent attack on the Center Force. I stayed out of range, speed was 22 knots. I needed to do a end around, but group was going too fast, so I simply slipped into it's radar range to get found out. The group slowed down to 14kts and started zigging. I sped away and got out of radar range, DD's came, but I was long gone before they reached where radar had me. Now it was easy to do a end around, I had the group slower than I. Historically the group would have increased speed and left me further behind. I find this a terrible flaw, because in the end I can make most groups slow down and pull off my attack.

Do they turn away, or follow the same base course?

When I played SHCE, they would turn away and leave me behind. I could not tell what their speed was, but it didn't really matter, as I could not follow anyway.

It's possible because the zig legs are so short, that somehow limits overall speed. The bigger issue for me is the short zig legs. They're so short, it's more like the ship is just helming left and right. Zigs are supposed to leave you way off track, but that just doesn't happen in the game. If you could increase the zig leg to even 1000 yards, that would help greatly.

I have seen them do the constant weaving thing, but as I was on the surface and firing shells at them, it sort of made sense. I'm guessing there is no way to change the legs of the zig pattern, though.

To me this is the biggest cheat in the game, get found out to slow a group down, I know many that do it.

The game does seem to be MAJOR FUBAR in a lot of ways.


Maybe Ducimus can enlighten us.

[max-peck]

Originally Posted by Armistead

It's possible because the zig legs are so short, that somehow limits overall speed. The bigger issue for me is the short zig legs. They're so short, it's more like the ship is just helming left and right.

Which is exactly what they are doing.

They are not zig zagging, but constant helming.

And the continual rudder change seems to be enough to slow their speed to approx two thirds of what they were doing before.

I share your frustration.

I used to be so careful not being detected before an attack, until I realised that their reduced average speed along the base course (that they still seem to follow) in many cases has made my subsequent attack easier

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Do they turn away, or follow the same base course?

When I played SHCE, they would turn away and leave me behind. I could not tell what their speed was, but it didn't really matter, as I could not follow anyway.

I have seen them do the constant weaving thing, but as I was on the surface and firing shells at them, it sort of made sense. I'm guessing there is no way to change the legs of the zig pattern, though.

The game does seem to be MAJOR FUBAR in a lot of ways.


Maybe Ducimus can enlighten us.

That's the problem with the small zig legs, they hold to that pattern and since the zigs are so small, they basically stay on the same course, you seldom have to adjust your track as they stay on the same basic course.
The only time they ever turn away is to dodge a torp. For me this happens most the time, but I've also seen some TF hold or increase speed, that's realistic. Something controls these factors.

Strange, convoys often tend more to break up and ships head off in different directions, but eventually regroup.

Could also be more of a RSRD thing, I don't recall stock or other supermods without it.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by max-peck

Which is exactly what they are doing.

They are not zig zagging, but constant helming.

And the continual rudder change seems to be enough to slow their speed to approx two thirds of what they were doing before.

I share your frustration.

I used to be so careful not being detected before an attack, until I realised that their reduced average speed along the base course (that they still seem to follow) in many cases has made my subsequent attack easier

I agree on the constant helming, be much better with long zig legs. However, the continual rudder speed never seems to change more than a knot or two between the lil zigs, I'm talking about the big speed decrease before that.

[NorthBeach]

Originally Posted by Armistead

To me this is the biggest cheat in the game, get found out to slow a group down, I know many that do it.

Yup, I'm guilty. I've come to call it "Trolling". Once I found that they had Aqua-Brembo brakes I started to dash in to scare up a response. Dash back out and do an end around. Then do an aft-Cromwell(ish) attack (wet if day, dry at night). Escape to the edge of their radar. Pop up and repeat.

It's fun and all, but, not very realistic.