New 'forgiving' fatigue model

[sub_optimal]

Hi everyone,

I'm interested in creating a new fatigue model, designed to balance historical accuracy and playability. Specifically, I want to make a system which is relatively forgiving when the player forgets about crew management for a bit, but which still leaves the crew generally tired out by the end of a long patrol.

I know that there has been a lot of very sophisticated discussion of fatigue modelling on these forums, unfortunately, much of it seems to have been dropped from the archives, so I don't have the benefit of it directly (unless somebody knows of a way to read old posts). I would very much appreciate comments and advice from those of you who are old hands at this kind of work.

1. Mysteries of the Modelling System

I've worked out, from context, that xx0 means 'surfaced' and xx1 means 'submerged'. Further, I think that 'regular' is non-combat and 'specific' is combat conditions.

I've also worked out what I think is the rank and compartment structure of the numbering system (see below).

I have two important questions, though:
a) How do you control the time compression level at which the fatigue model switches off?
b) Does anybody know, specifically, what the numerical values used in the model mean in practice?

2. Assumptions I Would Like To Make

Ideally, I would like a system in which the crew tires quickly, and rests up quickly. I would like extreme conditions (combat, bad weather) to be punishing to the crew, and cause them to tire, get stressed and injured and make mistakes. However, when this happens it's very difficult for them to recover, as the hot-bunking system provides space for only a fraction of the crew. This also makes the default system less 'forgiving' if the player forgets about crew management for a while (something that could never happen in reality). There are times in which I've tired the whole crew out, and just had to spend a couple of in-game days sitting at periscope depth, shuffling the little blighters through the bunks.

The most intuative way to create these conditions, to my mind, are a) to make the crew a little hardier by decreasing fatigue induced by work and b) to provide additional, alternate places for the crew to relax and recuperate while the bunks are full.

Compartment by Compartment:

Deck Watch
In good weather, this is a pleasant, fresh air duty. The crew should tire slowly, worn out only by the monotony of the horizon. In bad weather, on a U-boat, it's like riding a wild bull while standing under a waterfall. A four hour watch should leave any man tired to the bone. Combat is tricky, in this station: while being hunted, the position feels horribly exposed. While attacking a lone, unarmed ship, not so much. All in all, the feeling of exposure to random bullets should make this an unpleasant duty station in combat.

Guns – both deck and flak
Weather is not an issue here, as these stations cannot be manned in heavy seas. When not in combat, the crew is merely 'training' and values should be identical to the conning tower watch. While in combat, values should probably also be about the same, as the extra hard work of operating the gun will be offset by the psychological value of actually being able to shoot back at the enemy.

Control Room
Out of combat, this is a medium. Anybody who's steered a ship knows that the constant adjustments get tiring after four hours at the helm. On the other hand, it's important not to set the fatigue conditions too harshly, here, as this is where most of the officers work, and officers' work is much lighter. In combat, this is one of the -best- places on the submarine, as the people here have the profound psychological advantage of knowing what's going on. Weather does not effect this station very much.

Torpedo Rooms (Bomb Shops)
Out of combat, there's nothing to do but train. Many modern submarines set up auxiliary bunking in the torpedo rooms. In combat, the loading and unloading of torpedoes is the hardest duty aboard. In bad weather, this is sheer hell. Since bad weather matters across the board, I think the best thing to assume is that any sailor assigned to the torpedo rooms is moving big heavy things around for training, maintenance or combat. Sailors could still hang out there to catch some rest, but they wouldn't be -assigned- there. So medium-hard station in non-combat, very hard station in combat, severe weather modifier.

Active Engine Room
The active engine room is medium-hard in non-combat, hard in combat, and very tiring in heavy weather, due to the tendency to accumulate small injuries.

Inactive Engine Room
The inactive engine room, however, can be used to represent one of those spaces aboard where the crew can take on light duties, rest and regain strength. Slowly, of course, as an engine room is never a pleasant place to hang out.

Damage Control
In combat, this is a hard, wearing station. Out of combat, this is a very light and pleasant duty and another one of those places where sailors can rest up while not actually sleeping.

Radio Room
In combat and out, the sonar and radar watches are two of the most psychologically tiring duties aboard, but -especially- the sonar watch. Unfortunately, however, only one of these stations is generally active at a time. On the surface, the hydrophone operator can do nothing but nap, submerged, the radio man is in roughly the same position. My instinct is to average out the fatigue of these to positions in the assumption that crew could spell one another.

3. My Reconstruction of the Rank/Compartment Structure:

based on basic.cfg

Ranks:
[CREW_0] ;SEAMAN
[CREW_1] ;ABLESEAMAN
[CREW_2] ;LEADINGSEAMAN
[CREW_3] ;PETTYOFFICER
[CREW_4] ;CHIEFPETTYOFFICER
[CREW_5] ;CHIEFBOATSWAIN
[CREW_6] ;SUBLIEUTENANT
[CREW_7] ;LIEUTENANTJR
[CREW_8] ;LIEUTENANTSR

Compartments:
0 Bridge (aka 'Conning Tower Watch')
1 Radio Room
2 Control Room
3 Diesel Engine
4 Electric Engine
5 Bow Torpedo
6 Bow Quarters
7 Stern Quarters
8 Stern Torpedo
9 Deck Gun
10 Flak Guns
11 Unknown - Damage Control?

xx0 - Surfaced
xx1 - Submerged
Regular - noncombat
Specific – Combat

4. First Draft of the 'Forgiving' Model

Formatted for SH3 Commander
NB: I don't know what the actual numbers mean, so these are just guesses until I actually understand how they interact.

Station 'hardness' (based on GW/GWX 8 Hour Model):
Noncombat
- Easy: -0.001
- Regular: 0.001
- Hard: 0.003
Combat
- Easy: 0.01
- Regular: 0.02
- Hard: 0.045
Weather
- Weak Weather Modifier: 0.001
- Hard Weather Modifier: 0.01
- Hellish Weather Modifier: 0.02

[5]
Desc=Sub_Optimal's Forgiving - Experimental
; Crew Structure - for the time being, the same as default
CREW_0|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_0|FatigueStep=0.2
CREW_1|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_1|FatigueStep=0.2
CREW_2|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_2|FatigueStep=0.2
CREW_3|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_3|FatigueStep=0.1
CREW_4|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_4|FatigueStep=0.1
CREW_5|FatigueMax=0.5
CREW_5|FatigueStep=0.1
CREW_6|FatigueMax=0.6
CREW_6|FatigueStep=0.05
CREW_7|FatigueMax=0.6
CREW_7|FatigueStep=0.05
CREW_8|FatigueMax=0.6
CREW_8|FatigueStep=0.05
; COMARTMENTS - largely based off GW/GWX 8 Hour
;bridge
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor00=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor00=0.02 ; feeling of exposure to enemy fire
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather0=0.02
; radio
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor10=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor11=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor10=0.015 ; these values
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor11=0.015 ; balanced between stations
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather1=0.001
; control room
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor20=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor21=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor20=0.01 ; knowledge of the situation helps these folks
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor21=0.01
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather2=0.001
; diesel
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor30=0.0015
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor31=-0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor30=0.025
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor31=0.0001 ; rest without recovery in battle
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather3=0.017
; electric
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor40=-0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor41=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor40=0.0001 ; rest without recovery in battle
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor41=0.017
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather4=0.001
; bow torp
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor50=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor51=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor50=0.045
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor51=0.045
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather5=0.02 ; watch out for those swinging torps
; quarters
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor60=-0.1 ; this is the same value as in default
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor61=-0.1 ; sleep knits up the ravelled sleeve of care
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor70=-0.1
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor71=-0.1
; stern torp
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor80=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor81=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor80=0.045
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor81=0.045
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather8=0.02
; gun
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor90=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor90=0.02
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather9=0.02
; aa
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor100=0.001
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor100=0.02
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather10=0.02
; damage control
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor110=-0.05
FATIGUE_COEF|RegularFactor111=-0.05
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor110=0.02
FATIGUE_COEF|SpecificFactor111=0.02
FATIGUE_COEF|BadWeather11=0.001

[Stiebler]

Most of the items you want were resolved long ago by Observer for the NYGM super-mod.

Download it from my signature, and save yourself a lot of work.

Stiebler.

[Kafka BC]

Your assumption that Watch Duty is a pleasant thing in good weather is entirely wrong. It is tiring work even in the best of conditions, it is not sightseeing. Nor is it just a matter of looking around, for then you will see almost nothing.

To quote the United States Navy Lookout Training Handbook in the section on surface search:

"To search and scan, hold the binoculars steady so the horizon is in the top third of the field of vision. Direct the eyes just below the horizon and scan for 5 seconds in as many small steps as possible across the field seen through the binoculars. Search the entire sector in 5° steps, pausing between steps for approximately 5 seconds to scan the field of view. At the end of your sector, lower the glasses and rest the eyes for a few seconds, then search back across the sector with the naked eye."

Then they start all over again, each sweep of a 110° sector (10° overlaps) taking at least three minutes in optimal conditions. Try standing in one spot and doing that for four hours. I have been told by someone who did it that it is very physically exhausting.

Regarding the Torpedo Rooms, you should note that torpedoes were lifted and moved constantly when not in combat. They had to be maintained as well. I can't remember where I read it, but each torpedo on board a U-boat was stripped down and every part checked and cleaned once every three or four days.

Otherwise, good luck in your endeavor.

- Kafka BC

[Sailor Steve]

^^^^

Buchheim claims in Das Boot that he became friends with the crew by standing on bridge watch every day in their place, and it was grueling, which of course made him very popular.

[sub_optimal]

Thank you for your kind comments.

Beleive me, I have stood lookout watch for many hours myself, and I certainly don't mean to say that it is 'pleasent' in the usual civilian sense of the word. But we're talking relatively, here, in comparison to other submarine jobs. In my experience, the main problem with standing lookout is the extreme monotony. But the standard lookout watch is four hours and, at night, 4:15. Compare this to a sonar watch, where the crew is switched out every few minutes. In good weather, I found that the most trying part of a lookout watch was the extreme, almost hypnotic, monotony (especially life-bouy sentry, with that white, rythmic wake).

In bad weather, however, I freely acknowledge that lookout on a submarine must be hell on water. As you may recall, Buchheim had the engineer waterproof his camera so that he could work on deck. He had a very wet cruise with poor weather even by North Atlantic standards. And yet, even in these difficult conditions he found that one of the cheif hazards of non-combat sailing was the psychological difficulty of living in the cramped, rank interior of a submarine, which quickly left him feeling fuzzy-headed and overfed.

Stripping down equipment is, of course, one of the things that goes on in a torpedo room, but this is equally true of every part of submarine, and so I don't think that it should ideally factor into the numbers. These are, of coruse, crude approximations and... well all the usual disclaimers apply. The short version is that I am making the assumption that the 'hard job' that goes on in a torpedo room is that of trying to move the torps around rapidly and under combat conditions. Thus training will take its toll, as will combat. Maintainance, however, shouldn't be that much more exausting than in the engine room, battery compartment or galley.

[Kafka BC]

Originally Posted by sub_optimal

But we're talking relatively, here, in comparison to other submarine jobs.

Standing Lookout Watch on a warship in wartime, were the survival of the ship and crew depends on you, is just as tough as any other submarine job, and efficiency rapidly deteriorates...hence four hour shifts. Lookouts on warships require skill and training.

Compare this to a sonar watch, where the crew is switched out every few minutes.

I don't know where you got this, but on U-Boats the Radio/Hydrophone crew generally stood six hour watches and doubled as medics as well.

...especially life-bouy sentry, with that white, rythmic wake.

Not the same as standing lookout. There, if you are looking at the wake or anything else, then you are not doing your job.

[sub_optimal]

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

Standing Lookout Watch on a warship in wartime, were the survival of the ship and crew depends on you, is just as tough as any other submarine job, and efficiency rapidly deteriorates...hence four hour shifts.

Well I'm still not entirely convinced, but I'm willing to allow that my experience might be ideosyncratic. I'm a small guy with little physical strength but a very long attention span. Although I must insist that a lifebouy sentry is a lookout and, no, you really can't avoid looking at the wake becuase it's one of the areas you have to keep an eye on.

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

Lookouts on warships require skill and training.

Oh, undoubtedly.

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

I don't know where you got this, but on U-Boats the Radio/Hydrophone crew generally stood six hour watches and doubled as medics as well.

That's very interesting; I didn't know that. I wonder how they were able to keep it up for so long without losing efficiency very quickly?

Anyway, maybe it might be an idea to tweak the hardness of good-weather watchkeeping up a bit and tweak radio watch down.

[sub_optimal]

Originally Posted by Stiebler

Most of the items you want were resolved long ago by Observer for the NYGM super-mod.

Download it from my signature, and save yourself a lot of work.

That's very intersting, I was under the impression that the NYGM mod was designed for hard-core realism.

Can I ask, because I'm genuinely interested in how this works, how you approached these issues?

[Kafka BC]

Originally Posted by sub_optimal

Although I must insist that a lifebouy sentry is a lookout ...

You can call it a lookout in the non-military sense. It is vital, yes. But again, it is not the same kind of job.

As a Lifebuoy Sentry you are looking aft from the quarterdeck at an area that is relatively close to the ship looking to see or hear someone who has fallen overboard.

As opposed to scanning the horizon 10 kilometers away, using the procedure I described above, searching for a tiny speck. Or in the case of aircraft, and using an entirely different procedure, searching the sky for a pinprick 15 to 20 kilometers away.

I've gone up the road a short bit from where I live to get a better look out of Halifax Harbour and tried to do it steady. Didn't even last 10 minutes.

Edit: As an afterthought for anyone following this thread.

You can get a .pdf copy of the United States Navy Lookout Training Handbook here.

- Kafka BC

[sub_optimal]

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

As a Lifebuoy Sentry you are looking aft from the quarterdeck at an area that is relatively close to the ship looking to see or hear someone who has fallen overboard

Ah, I think I see where we're talking at cross purposes. On many ships, the lifebuoy sentry is also the after lookout, responsible for scanning the back third of the horrizon while also waiting for somebody to fall overboard.

[Hitman]

First of all, let me applaude your attempt to create a better crew efficiency system We are always in need of fresh people with fresh ideas, and taking on such a boring undertaking as the crew efficiency (Which requires lots of testing), but that is so decisive in gameplay enjoyment terms, always will get my applause and support

That's very intersting, I was under the impression that the NYGM mod was designed for hard-core realism.

Can I ask, because I'm genuinely interested in how this works, how you approached these issues?

IIRC Observer was a real life ex-submariner, so I guess he had a lot of insight into all these matters.

[Kafka BC]

Originally Posted by sub_optimal

Ah, I think I see where we're talking at cross purposes...

I see that now, after looking through the handbook again and doing a quick google. I mistook Lifebuoy Sentry as civilian (ie. Cruise Ships and such) and Lifebuoy Watch as Navy. It appears that the terms are interchangeable.

I stand corrected.

I see you are from Toronto, were you in the Navy Reserve there?

PS. I heartily agree with Hitman. There it always a need for something new with a different perspective for people to try. Evidence all the different GUI and Environmental Mods that are floating around here. You might want to look at NGYM's fatigue model, I haven't tried it yet, but I read somewhere that it models efficiency over the length of a patrol.

- Kafka BC

[Jimbuna]

Good luck in your endeavours sub_optimal, I echo Hitmans applause and best wishes

[sub_optimal]

Originally Posted by Kafka BC

I see you are from Toronto, were you in the Navy Reserve there?

Ha ha, no, my last official naval experience was as coxwain of my sea cadet corps many long years ago. We used to go out in YAG's and, one memorable summer, on repurposed lobster boats (being, under naval supervision, the cleanest lobster boats on Earth).

Since then I've been studying as a naval historian, and have spent some time academically observing (and occasionally teaching) militaries of various Western countries. Actually, I don't know very much about U-boats at all. I've always shied away from the Second World War as being too full of people who actually know that they're talking about and can show me up for the fraud that I am. Currently I'm working on questions of naval intelligence and institutional structure in the postwar period.

[sub_optimal]

Back on topic, though, does anybody know an easy way to access NGYM's fatigue model?