WW2 Submarine battle:USS Balao vs Type 1X UBoot: Who would win?

Feuer Frei! · 09-12-09, 08:45 PM

Kaleuns, i welcome your feedback on who would win if a head-to-head battle was waged between these two.
One on one battles between submarines were rare. Not counting surprise attacks when submarines sank enemy submarines, which usually involved surprise.

Here we have a late World War II American submarine squaring off against the most common long-range German U-Boat. Consider everything in this battle. Stealth, survivability of the design, weaponry. Assume crews of approximately equal capabilities.

Captains are free to fight submerged or surfaced, but ultimately the best combination of technological advantages wins the day.

Who would that be? USN or Kriegsmarine?

Additional Details

By late in the war the Germans had developed homing torpedoes. I am uncertain whether type IX U-Boats ever carried them, but the accoustic torpedo was available by 1945.
2 years ago
Another consideration, most submarines make some ambient noise, whether it be cavitation from movement through the water or screw noise, or sounds of electric motors. So it is possible to detect and locate another submarine without active sonar. But certainly active sonar is one weapon in the arsenal both captains have to work with. Properly used, it could give a smart crew a little bit of an edge--or it could blow a dumb crew's cover.
2 years ago
Torpedo problems were rampant in US Navy subs and aircraft in 1942 and 1943, but by 1944 had largely been corrected. Balao was commissioned in 1943. Type IX U-Boats were one of the most numerous types, and were built throughout the war.
2 years ago
In 1944-45 most American submarines had been equipped with active radar that could be used on the surface. Most U-Boats were not equipped with active radar, although they had passive detection devices primarily as a defense against airborne radar. U.S. radar on submarines was probably better than whatever active radar might have been on U-Boats.

On maximum depth for various types, U.S. subs could probably go deeper than the recommended maximum depths. USN tended to be conservative in setting operating limits. So it is possible the U-Boat and Balao could have had very similar depth capabilities.

US submarines were well-built, generally performed well, and were highly successful in Pacific operations. Both the Kriegsmarine and US Navy were plagued by bad torpedoes, but US torpedoes were improved later in the war.

The Kriegsmarine had a two-year head start on the US Navy in submarine combat operations. World War I experiences by Germans were not a significant advantage.
2 years ago

The Balao class:

The Type lX:

i am favouring the type 1X, based on the general consencious that german crews were very well trained and that discipline and battle experience would be a factor in swaying the battle. Of course one cannot say that that would be the case every single time were these two to meet, obviously a lot of factors come into play such as weather, if the boats are on limited ammo due to returning from successful patrols, loss of crew from unsuccessful patrols, morale etc etc etc.

Zilch · 09-13-09, 08:13 AM

Whoever shoots first, I think.

I'd lean towards Balao, though. More chances of follow-up shots, heavier firepower up top, if needed, and of course I'll favor US Navy training above what was left of the Kriegsmarine at the time. I think most of their expertise got sunk in 1941. I may be wrong about this, but I think the Balao's radar and sonar were more advanced as well, increasing the chances of that first shot.

By the way, did you choose USS Becuna as your Balao picture consciously? I just had the good fortune to be able to tour that very boat recently. Vid's on youtube if anyone's interested.

Feuer Frei! · 09-13-09, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zilch

Whoever shoots first, I think.

I'd lean towards Balao, though. More chances of follow-up shots, heavier firepower up top, if needed, and of course I'll favor US Navy training above what was left of the Kriegsmarine at the time. I think most of their expertise got sunk in 1941. I may be wrong about this, but I think the Balao's radar and sonar were more advanced as well, increasing the chances of that first shot.

By the way, did you choose USS Becuna as your Balao picture consciously? I just had the good fortune to be able to tour that very boat recently. Vid's on youtube if anyone's interested.

I chose the picture randomly, and i envy you in being able to tour the boat.....must have been an experience....

Zilch · 09-13-09, 09:11 AM

It was! If you're ever in Philadelphia (a very cool town to visit, I'd love to go back,) be sure to see it. It's moored right next to the cruiser, Olympia, which is the only ship of its type left in the world. Twelve dollars gets you into both!

I did a video walkthrough, but my camera was pretty lowsy. You get the idea though:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...h_query=becuna

Sorry to get off-topic...

Hitman · 09-13-09, 03:23 PM

This question has already an answer: Some IXD2 U-Boats were sunk in the Pacific by american fleet boats

However, the truth is that they were caught by surprise thanks to decryption of german transmissions, etc.

Probably the truth is simply what Zilch already said: Whoever sees and shoots first

Lt.Fillipidis · 09-13-09, 04:16 PM

Well, it depends.
If both subs were on the surface and got alarmed at the same second, the IX could man the deck gun faster due to its smaller conn tower and the distance from the hatch to the gun. (Considering that both subs' crews got out of the conning tower hatch.)

If in the given time the subs were on the surface and start the submerge procedure one minute after the alarm, as far as i know the IX is faster and that gives an advantage.

If we talk about fully submerged encounter, the Balao class has the upper hand since it has more torpedo tubes.

All the above exist only in theory.
In a given battle there are many factors that can determinate the result.
There are many battles that were won by a minor force that took advantage of every oportunity that showed up.
David and Goliath is one example.

Brag · 09-13-09, 08:34 PM

With Balz on board the Balao would be balaued into the nothingness of the lack of history.

09-22-09, 01:00 AM

This all based on perspective, but I'll give it a go.
The IXB and IXC I think are better at what they were built for sinking merchants undetected, and surviving. The IXD2 is moving into the big sub class, where range is increased at the price of many advantages. It's a balancing act and one can't have it all.
The balao is a bigger, faster, and more powerful boat. Speed and endurance go to the USN.
Technology also goes to the USN. With the radar carried on USN subs, plus the way it was mounted high up the IXD2 is at a disadvantage.
But the deciding factor in the contest is none of the above. Ultra is the deciding factor.
US and Netherlands boats win. Germany and Japan loose.
In all of WWII there was only one case of one sub sinking another while both were submerged.
An english sub sunk a german uboat.
Netherlands should never be overlooked in sub vs sub sinking.
The germans paid a fairly high toll to the dutch.
Remember who invented the snorkel.
English subs were also fairly successful uboat hunters.

FIREWALL · 09-22-09, 01:03 AM

I WOULD.

09-12-09, 08:45 PM	#1
Feuer Frei! Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Valhalla Posts: 5,295 Downloads: 141 Uploads: 17	WW2 Submarine battle:USS Balao vs Type 1X UBoot: Who would win? Kaleuns, i welcome your feedback on who would win if a head-to-head battle was waged between these two. One on one battles between submarines were rare. Not counting surprise attacks when submarines sank enemy submarines, which usually involved surprise. Here we have a late World War II American submarine squaring off against the most common long-range German U-Boat. Consider everything in this battle. Stealth, survivability of the design, weaponry. Assume crews of approximately equal capabilities. Captains are free to fight submerged or surfaced, but ultimately the best combination of technological advantages wins the day. Who would that be? USN or Kriegsmarine? Additional Details By late in the war the Germans had developed homing torpedoes. I am uncertain whether type IX U-Boats ever carried them, but the accoustic torpedo was available by 1945. 2 years ago Another consideration, most submarines make some ambient noise, whether it be cavitation from movement through the water or screw noise, or sounds of electric motors. So it is possible to detect and locate another submarine without active sonar. But certainly active sonar is one weapon in the arsenal both captains have to work with. Properly used, it could give a smart crew a little bit of an edge--or it could blow a dumb crew's cover. 2 years ago Torpedo problems were rampant in US Navy subs and aircraft in 1942 and 1943, but by 1944 had largely been corrected. Balao was commissioned in 1943. Type IX U-Boats were one of the most numerous types, and were built throughout the war. 2 years ago In 1944-45 most American submarines had been equipped with active radar that could be used on the surface. Most U-Boats were not equipped with active radar, although they had passive detection devices primarily as a defense against airborne radar. U.S. radar on submarines was probably better than whatever active radar might have been on U-Boats. On maximum depth for various types, U.S. subs could probably go deeper than the recommended maximum depths. USN tended to be conservative in setting operating limits. So it is possible the U-Boat and Balao could have had very similar depth capabilities. US submarines were well-built, generally performed well, and were highly successful in Pacific operations. Both the Kriegsmarine and US Navy were plagued by bad torpedoes, but US torpedoes were improved later in the war. The Kriegsmarine had a two-year head start on the US Navy in submarine combat operations. World War I experiences by Germans were not a significant advantage. 2 years ago The Balao class: The Type lX: i am favouring the type 1X, based on the general consencious that german crews were very well trained and that discipline and battle experience would be a factor in swaying the battle. Of course one cannot say that that would be the case every single time were these two to meet, obviously a lot of factors come into play such as weather, if the boats are on limited ammo due to returning from successful patrols, loss of crew from unsuccessful patrols, morale etc etc etc. __________________ "History is the lies that the victors agree on"- Napoleon LINK TO MY SH 3 MODS

09-13-09, 08:13 AM	#2
Zilch Torpedoman Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 118 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Whoever shoots first, I think. I'd lean towards Balao, though. More chances of follow-up shots, heavier firepower up top, if needed, and of course I'll favor US Navy training above what was left of the Kriegsmarine at the time. I think most of their expertise got sunk in 1941. I may be wrong about this, but I think the Balao's radar and sonar were more advanced as well, increasing the chances of that first shot. By the way, did you choose USS Becuna as your Balao picture consciously? I just had the good fortune to be able to tour that very boat recently. Vid's on youtube if anyone's interested. __________________ Depth charges pounding your flanges loose? Hedgehogs dislodging your precious bulkheads? Use Beemans Gum! Freshens breath and doubles as an adhesive in a pinch. The gum of choice aboard U-54!

09-13-09, 09:11 AM	#4
Zilch Torpedoman Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 118 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	It was! If you're ever in Philadelphia (a very cool town to visit, I'd love to go back,) be sure to see it. It's moored right next to the cruiser, Olympia, which is the only ship of its type left in the world. Twelve dollars gets you into both! I did a video walkthrough, but my camera was pretty lowsy. You get the idea though: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...h_query=becuna Sorry to get off-topic... __________________ Depth charges pounding your flanges loose? Hedgehogs dislodging your precious bulkheads? Use Beemans Gum! Freshens breath and doubles as an adhesive in a pinch. The gum of choice aboard U-54!

09-13-09, 03:23 PM	#5
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,109 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	This question has already an answer: Some IXD2 U-Boats were sunk in the Pacific by american fleet boats However, the truth is that they were caught by surprise thanks to decryption of german transmissions, etc. Probably the truth is simply what Zilch already said: Whoever sees and shoots first __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

09-13-09, 08:34 PM	#7
Brag Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Docked on a Russian pond Posts: 7,072 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	With Balz on board the Balao would be balaued into the nothingness of the lack of history. __________________ Espionage, adventure, suspense, are just a click away Click here to look inside Brag's book: Amazon.com: Kingmaker: Alexey Braguine: Books Order Kingmaker here: http://www.subsim.com/store.html For Tactics visit:http://www.freewebs.com/kielman/

09-13-09, 04:16 PM	#6
Lt.Fillipidis Weps Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Veria, Greece Posts: 365 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	Well, it depends. If both subs were on the surface and got alarmed at the same second, the IX could man the deck gun faster due to its smaller conn tower and the distance from the hatch to the gun. (Considering that both subs' crews got out of the conning tower hatch.) If in the given time the subs were on the surface and start the submerge procedure one minute after the alarm, as far as i know the IX is faster and that gives an advantage. If we talk about fully submerged encounter, the Balao class has the upper hand since it has more torpedo tubes. All the above exist only in theory. In a given battle there are many factors that can determinate the result. There are many battles that were won by a minor force that took advantage of every oportunity that showed up. David and Goliath is one example.

09-22-09, 01:00 AM	#8
Snestorm Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	This all based on perspective, but I'll give it a go. The IXB and IXC I think are better at what they were built for sinking merchants undetected, and surviving. The IXD2 is moving into the big sub class, where range is increased at the price of many advantages. It's a balancing act and one can't have it all. The balao is a bigger, faster, and more powerful boat. Speed and endurance go to the USN. Technology also goes to the USN. With the radar carried on USN subs, plus the way it was mounted high up the IXD2 is at a disadvantage. But the deciding factor in the contest is none of the above. Ultra is the deciding factor. US and Netherlands boats win. Germany and Japan loose. In all of WWII there was only one case of one sub sinking another while both were submerged. An english sub sunk a german uboat. Netherlands should never be overlooked in sub vs sub sinking. The germans paid a fairly high toll to the dutch. Remember who invented the snorkel. English subs were also fairly successful uboat hunters.

09-22-09, 01:03 AM	#9
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	I WOULD. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???