Obama Administration vows to provide path for citizenship

[JALU3]

... for the 12 million present illegal/undocumented immigrants currently residing in the United States. Not to be more important than previously proposed health care and energy initiatives.

NYT via Mercury News
FoxNews


As the product of two legal immigrants, and the spouse of a legal immigrant, this is a change in policy that I did not support during the previous administration, nor will I support in the present one.

[SteamWake]

The amnisty bill failed last time once the public at large caught wind of it and raised hell with their representataives. Lets see how they try to slip it through again.

As to the health care thing .... god help us.

Well, from an outside view, not taking emotional/national reasons into account, I think it makes sense. Kickig all these ppl out is hardly an option. Huge parts of the american economy are dependent on these cheap workers.

Giving them citizenship helps in many ways. Integration into the country is easier, and more impotant, they will have to pay taxes.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Well, from an outside view, not taking emotional/national reasons into account, I think it makes sense. Kickig all these ppl out is hardly an option. Huge parts of the american economy are dependent on these cheap workers.

Giving them citizenship helps in many ways. Integration into the country is easier, and more impotant, they will have to pay taxes.

LOL pay taxes... what about the huge burden on I dont know the healthcare system? Oh wait they are already responsable for that.

On one hand the unemployment numbers are bemoaned, on the other "american economy is dependent on these 'cheap' workers.

"Kickig all all these ppl is hardly an option" ... why not?

[August]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Huge parts of the american economy are dependent on these cheap workers.

Huge parts of the American economy were dependent on slave labor at one point too but that hardly makes it worth continuing.

Besides, if and when these illegal aliens actually do get their citizenship, their employers will no longer be able to pay them sub minimum wages, forcing those companies to fire all those new citizens and seek other illegal aliens.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Well, the articles mention it but its' worth repeating; illegal immigrants have another value that explains this insistence on amnesty quite easily.....votes.

Originally Posted by August

Besides, if and when these illegal aliens actually do get their citizenship, their employers will no longer be able to pay them sub minimum wages, forcing those companies to fire all those new citizens and seek other illegal aliens.

This has actually happened before, after a fashion. When the First Federal minimum wage law went into effect in 83' a lot of people lost their jobs, mostly minorities, because their employers sought out new employees that they were willing to pay more. Other jobs were consolidated to make them worth the new wage. Estimates vary depending on who you talk to but they range between 2 and 8 million jobs.

With the current rate of unemployment, plus any additional costs on employers incurred by some of the universal healthcare options being discussed, amnesty reeks of bad policymaking that will hurt the people it is supposed to help, not to mention the budget strain.

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Kickig all these ppl out is hardly an option.

Kicking them out might be unfeasible and costly, but limiting the harm they do by staying and providing less incentive to come here could be cheap and efficient. Simply stop providing public services to non-citizens and those without visas. Require proof of parental citizenship for babies born on American soil before they can become citizens.
The U.S. has no obligation to do anything for these people at all, so there are all kinds of other little incentives they have that we could take away.

Personally, I like illegal immigrants. They fill a big gap in the labor market, they do jobs no one else wants to do, they ease fiscal strain on businesses, and technically, there is no need for them to directly cost the treasury one red cent. Its' like home-delivery outsourcing, but it doesn't impact good jobs(much)! And it is such a simple fix! No citizenship, no visa, no taxes, no services!
I could go on and on.........

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, the articles mention it but its' worth repeating; illegal immigrants have another value that explains this insistence on amnesty quite easily.....votes.

Nailed it right on the head...votes....plain and simple.

[Platapus]

Well there probably is no perfect solution to the "immigration problem" . At least I have not read of any solution that is perfect.

"In broad outlines, officials said, the Obama administration favors legislation that would bring illegal immigrants into the legal system by recognizing that they violated the law, and imposing fines and other penalties to fit the offense. The legislation would seek to prevent future illegal immigration by strengthening border enforcement and cracking down on employers who hire illegal immigrants, while creating a national system for verifying the legal immigration status of new workers."

As an imperfect solution this one does not sound all that bad.

What's a better solution? Operation Wetback II?

[Digital_Trucker]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Well there probably is no perfect solution to the "immigration problem" . At least I have not read of any solution that is perfect.

"In broad outlines, officials said, the Obama administration favors legislation that would bring illegal immigrants into the legal system by recognizing that they violated the law, and imposing fines and other penalties to fit the offense. The legislation would seek to prevent future illegal immigration by strengthening border enforcement and cracking down on employers who hire illegal immigrants, while creating a national system for verifying the legal immigration status of new workers."

As an imperfect solution this one does not sound all that bad.

What's a better solution? Operation Wetback II?

That would probably depend on what definitions are given to "fit the offense" and "cracking down". Until the alleged legislation is written, all that "broad outline" is is rhetoric.

[CaptainHaplo]

A better alternative? Easy

#1 - Stop providing a social safety net or service to all illegal immigrants.
This includes welfare, food stamps, housing assistance, health care, education, etc.

#2 - Enforce current law regarding the employment of an "undocumented" worker. If an employer is caught with illegal employees - then pay the fines required by law, do jail time - and then try to run that same business... Basically - if you hire illegals - you end up losing your business - which I don't have a problem with since you are, as liberals point out - taking advantage of people. So lets do what is already law - and make the cost of that practice too high?

These two steps require no dead of night immigration forces busting down doors, no forced deportations. In addition, what you do is tell people they have 3 months before enforcement of these laws go into effect. That gives people enough time to make a decision and impliment it. For employers they have time to get new people trained, for the illegal employees, they have the opportunity to save a few bucks (vs sending it back to mexico as they do now) in preparation for their return to where they belong.

More legislation never fixed any real problem - these employment rules have been on the books for decades and never enforced. So someone tell me what the devil is wrong with doing this?

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Well there probably is no perfect solution to the "immigration problem" . At least I have not read of any solution that is perfect.

"In broad outlines, officials said, the Obama administration favors legislation that would bring illegal immigrants into the legal system by recognizing that they violated the law, and imposing fines and other penalties to fit the offense. The legislation would seek to prevent future illegal immigration by strengthening border enforcement and cracking down on employers who hire illegal immigrants, while creating a national system for verifying the legal immigration status of new workers."

As an imperfect solution this one does not sound all that bad.

I agree that there is no perfect solution, but Obama's plan is unsustainable and idealistic.
Firstly, there's the effect of dumping up to 12 million additional people onto social programs like medicare, medicaid, and social security all at once. Social Security alone is going to bankrupt the country within a few decades at the rate we're going.
Of course, that asumes that they're all willing to pay fines to become citizens, some may choose to remain illegal. And what would amnesty tell other potential illegals? Break the law long enough and you'll be fine?
Coupled with revolving-door deportation, it hardly seems practicable.

Secondly, there is also the cost of maintaining border security. Yeah we sort of have a fence, but it has to be monitored or it is just a speedbump. Illegal immigrants have repeatedly demonstrated their will to bypass localized monitoring, even when it means possibly dying in the desert.
And the border is like 2000 miles long. And there's also the coast.
Trying to dam up the border would be tremendously expensive in terms of both initial capital and annual operating expenses.
Regulating employers also costs a lot of money. Inspectors would be needed. More bureacracy would be needed to support them.
We both know that if there is one thing the government has ever done well, it is to make huge bureacracies. And on top of that we have a new system for verifying immigration status? God only know what that will cost, but it's a certainty that it won't work the way it is supposed to.

-This applies to CH, too
Thirdly, cracking down on employers who hire illegal immigrants isn't going to help anyone. As previously stated, illegals mostly fufill jobs no one wants anyways. The thing that riles everybody is the costs they incur on various state budgets. Plus we'd shut down a lot of small business that relies on cheap labor to exsist. That means less choice for consumers. It also means less jobs for legal workers or citizens in some cases.

Take away their public benefits and then just let the market work. Even if there is a huge influx of immigrants, they'd have little effect on public spending and their wages would be driven down to the point that most would just go home. If illegals decide they don't want to work for less than everyone else the system automatically adjusts to either offer them more pay, or meet the wage/benefit demands of the legal labor pool.

There might not be a perfect solution, but that doesn't mean we can't have a solution that works well.

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by August

Huge parts of the American economy were dependent on slave labor at one point too but that hardly makes it worth continuing.

Besides, if and when these illegal aliens actually do get their citizenship, their employers will no longer be able to pay them sub minimum wages, forcing those companies to fire all those new citizens and seek other illegal aliens.

good point

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I agree that there is no perfect solution, but Obama's plan is unsustainable and idealistic.

Considering that we don't know exactly what President Obama's plan is, this is all a lot of guesswork.

I will wait until I see what the plan is before I will form an opinion.

The "broad outline" is what we have but I need to see the details before I can opine whether it is sustainable or unsustainable.

[Neptunus Rex]

I might support if;

1) They honestly declare when they actually entered the USA.
2) They pay all back taxes on all income earned during that time.
3) Pay the interest and penalty for not paying the taxes.
4) Pay a penalty for having entered illegally.
5) Pay back for any services received.

Wow, I just realized that 2,3, and 4 are the eligibility criteria for becoming a part of the Obama administration.

I Wonder,
Are Corporate Banks Doing as they did before?
[1] Say A Corporate Bank Supports Me?
[2] To Run A Country
[3] I'm Now Their Puppet,Like All Governments
[4] Cars And Trucks Can Run If Made On Batterys 10 Yrs Ago,
[5] Now They Promote it,Why?Arabs Are Rich,They Dictate Oil,
[6] The Most Wealthiest Country In The World Is China
[7] Why? You May Ask?Family Businesses,They Stick Together,
[8] Am I Wrong?No;China Is The Only Country Today,To Get All
Of Us Out Of World Recession,All they Ask Is More Input
[9] China Only Has 7% Of Say When Leaders Meet,Most Countrys have 15%,
[10] Finally You Decide,
Corporate Banks They Say Decide The World's Economy,
In The Past They Created Wars And Will Do The Same
Today,
Living In America Today?
Who Took The Gold Out Of The Original American Dollar?
You decide,
Let Us Hope For A Worldwide Peacefull Solution