A question about the pre-germany era

[mapuc]

Have Just seen the first episode of a Danish drama series "1864"

In part one who takes it start in 1851 a Danish politician use the word "Tyskerne" = The Germans.

Was this word used before the creation of Germany(1871)?

I'm sure that if you asked a person from pre-germany(e.g 1851) which nationality he has he wouldn't say I'm a german, he would say I'm a Schleswiger

Markus

[Eichhörnchen]

You make a very good point. I don't have much knowledge about this period, but I would have thought that the average Prussian or Saxon would not have described themselves as "German" back then.

Maybe you need Catfish or Schroeder on the case...

[Skybird]

You may want to discriminate between the ethnic, language-based and juristic forms to define the nationality of a people. The juristic form to do so only is a bureaucratic profanity, and it can but must no correspond to the feeling of identity a given subject may have. Many Turks in modern Germany have formally a German nationality (passport, ID card, citizenship), but do not see themselves as Germans, and some of these may not even want to be seen as that. - This only to illustrate the need to differ between cultural identity and juristic-bureaucratic formality when thinking of "nationality".

The "Germans" get referred to under that name since around the 10th century already. They get mentioned as that in some clerical decrees and written documents related to the Vatican, I think. Since then, the usage of this term spread rapidly in other languages as well.

The birth hours of a German spirit of national identity also is seen in this era, after the battle on the Lechfeld near Augsburg in 955, when Otto I. defeated the Hungarians that until then had time and again raided territories that later would count as "Germany" and for the first time ever saw a strong alliance of feudal leaders and local "chieftains" that before spend more time with fighting against each others instead of the shared bandit-enemy from the Eastern outside. Already before, in the middle of the 9th century, the Franconian empire had been divided into three realms, of which one part, covered the area between Rhein and Elbe. The first king of this kingdom was Ludwig, called Ludwig der Deutsche (the German). The oldest document in German language also is from that time the so-called Strassbourger Eide. Roughly one hundred years later already, the new empire had established itself under Otto the Great, it became later known as the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation.

[Eichhörnchen]

Well I guess there was that bloke called "Herman the German" in antiquity, wasn't there? So I suppose the word does pre-date the federation of all those small states.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Eichhornchen

Well I guess there was that bloke called "Herman the German" in antiquity, wasn't there? So I suppose the word does pre-date the federation of all those small states.

A nickname, his real name was Arminius , a latinized version of his germanic name Erminaz. the later germanized version of the latinized verison wold become "Hermann".

I was born in the shadow of the Hermann Height Monument, btw. My grandfather'S name was Hermann. And I owned not one but four swords in my life. You all are warned.

Arminius was Cheruscian, usually described as a Germanic tribe. The English reference "Hermann the German" in unknown in German, he does not have the name "Hermann der Deutsche/Germane" in German language. In German, he occasionally gets referred to as "Hermann der Cherusker".

It is under debate that the Cherusci indeed have to be counted as a Germanic tribe. However, no matter their origin they got absorbed by Franconian and Alemmani tribes later.

[mapuc]

Thank you Skybird for your indeep answer.

So the word German is older than I have learned or read.

Markus

[Eichhörnchen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

A nickname, his real name was Arminius , a latinized version of his germanic name Erminaz. the later germanized version of the latinized verison wold become "Hermann".

I was born in the shadow of the Hermann Height Monument, btw. My grandfather'S name was Hermann. And I owned not one but four swords in my life. You all are warned.

Arminius was Cheruscian, usually described as a Germanic tribe. The English reference "Hermann the German" in unknown in German, he does not have the name "Hermann der Deutsche/Germane" in German language. In German, he occasionally gets referred to as "Hermann der Cherusker".

It is under debate that the Cherusci indeed have to be counted as a Germanic tribe. However, no matter their origin they got absorbed by Franconian and Alemmani tribes later.

Well as you've probably concluded from my own contributions, the English can be a rather shallow race and we probably called him Hermann the German for no other reason than that it rhymes!

Joking aside, I did find your expansion very interesting, Skybird. Thank you...


PS/ perhaps you would now like to contribute a title toward my Animal Film Club thread?