Ferguson

[Oberon]

Alright, you chaps across the Pond have been sitting on this one for a while, so I'll break it out instead. I've been seeing pictures on social media since Sunday night, but the news outlets have been curiously quiet.
Well, the Beeb just put this out so I'll link it here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28764278

I'm reminded a lot of the 2011 London riots, although there were less guns involved admittedly, but still the spark behind it was similar and there was equal opportunism.
I don't recall baton rounds or tear gas being used though...but, like I said, more guns being thrown around over there so the police probably don't want to risk taking a softer approach and being sprayed by someone with an M16.

[Dread Knot]

At this point anyway, a lot of the facts remain in dispute. According to what information has been released by the police department involved, the victim started the confrontation by shoving the police officer back into his car, and then a struggle for the officer's gun ensued. The victim was likely shot once during this altercation. Then, the victim exited the car and was subsequently shot outside of same.

Witnesses (or people purporting to be witnesses) have claimed that the individual was some distance from the officer and had raised his hands when he was shot. He was unarmed.

The police department (Ferguson MO) has not released further statements. The FBI has stepped in and is actively soliciting cell-phone camera or other video footage from possible witnesses.

The young man's body lay in the street for some hours as the crime scene was processed, further provoking the crowd of onlookers. Another department (St. Louis County) was called in to conduct the investigation. A vigil put together for the night of the shooting turned violent and several businesses were looted, burned, etc.

There have been subsequent incidents in areas outside of the small municipality where the shooting occurred. A shoe store was looted in South St. Louis last night, many miles from the area of the shooting. The department is putting together an extra-patrol detail for the coming week. Also, the FBI is cautioning that a couple of large area shopping malls may be targeted for looting/vandalism.

The parents have appealed to the community with the message that they don't want their son's memory to be tarnished by the spectre of criminal acts and violence. Apparently he was preparing to attend college in the fall, and wanted to eventually go into business for himself.

[Oberon]

What makes me ponder is why the arrest was made in the first place, from what I've heard the two African-American men were walking in the street, rather than the sidewalk. I believe it's referred to as 'jay-walking' there, and yet this escalates into Brown being shot multiple times.
Continuing the parallel with the 2011 riots, Duggan was intercepted by armed police who were under the impression that Duggan was armed, and it went downhill from there really, Duggan was a known gang member and a court controversially would later declare the killing lawful.
Now, it's debatable in the UK whether the riots were caused directly by Duggans death or whether it was a pressure cooker situation and Duggans shooting was a millibar too far for the disaffected youth. Especially when one considers the varied make-up of those who were prosecuted after the riots, some were school teachers, I believe one was the daughter of a millionaire. Not the disaffected black youth that many people were expecting, that of Notting Hill and Brixton fame.

Coming back to the US, I think the stress points are acutely different but there are some similarities to be drawn, that of perhaps leftward leaning young individuals (and rightward leaning individuals so long as a Democrat is in power) who are concerned with the misuse of police force and the eagerness to resort to deadly force, particularly with the whole 'stand your ground' debacle not so long ago. However, equally in defence of the police force, they are much more likely to encounter a deadly situation than the police in the UK, where firearms are fewer and situations involving them are dealt with by specially trained firearms units (I believe SCO19) whereas every US trooper has the potential to encounter a situation that would be dealt with by specialised police forces in the UK (not that regular police forces don't encounter firearms in the UK, but I believe that the SOP is to withdraw to a safe distance and call for armed backup if a firearm is discharged at an unarmed officer, Jim might be able to correct me on this), so it is more likely that they will react with lethal force in what they determine to be self-preservation, even if in retrospect, the act was disproportionate to the situation.

Like you say, there's not much in the way of facts to go around at the moment, but the FBI had better run this one over with a fine-tooth comb because I have a feeling that things are going to come to a head in the US regarding the police and African-Americans in the near future, as well as the usage of firearms by the police. We have a similar problem brewing in the UK, only for us it's not just the relationship between ethnic groups and the police but also the relation between the public and the police. I was listening to a program on radio four earlier that described the British publics historical point of view of the police as being 'agents of the public' not 'agents of the government' and up until the 1980s the police were generally given a blank card by the public and trusted, but after the Thatcher government and the miners strike, with the rise of accountability, and numerous corruption scandals and other crises (the latest 'plebgate' scandal being just one of them) that the British public are steadily taking a more European viewpoint towards the police that shifts them from being agents of protection to agents of oppression, and that would honestly be a sad thing to happen, in my opinion anyway.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Oberon

that the British public are steadily taking a more European viewpoint towards the police that shifts them from being agents of protection to agents of oppression, and that would honestly be a sad thing to happen, in my opinion anyway.

Well I see 2 issues from a personal observation and what I get from the news.

1) Seems that the current generation seems to have less respect for authority figures wether it be police or the teacher in front of the class, they think they own the world and may do anything they please without fearing any form of consequences as they think they have the right to do so.

2) From the other side when it comes to the police it seems most of their busy work is nowadays is writing out fines to fill up the state's treasure chest. I know if you do nothing wrong you shouldn't worry but sometimes it happens unintentional and something really that doesn't compromise any safety of the public order but you're beeing treated like a criminal making a mountain out of a mole hil while all that is needed is a couple of words a nod and of you go. So I understand why a time this frustrates the public giving them a sense that they longer serve to protect the public but rather are being used to squeeze more money out of it.

my 2 cent and my apologies for rambling to much OT to which I have to add is:

It's a tragic incident, but more so as it's being used as an excuse for the mayority to go on a full crime/misbehave spree and wreck the whole area like the 2011 London riots and iirc the burning of Paris in 2005 when a group of 3 youngers of North-African origin who where chased by the police after a reported break in one of them fried himself in a high voltage electricity box in a power substation which seemed enough reason for the youth to burn cars for the next week or two.

I'm glad at least to hear the parents ask the mayority to quiet down as this is something their child never wanted to happen. We can only hope the investigation gets to the bottom of this.

[Jimbuna]

^ Can't argue with that.

[Dread Knot]

This strikes me as a case where one of those personal video recorders some police officers have on their person or in their squad car might have come in handy. They almost seem mandatory nowadays.

Sadly, there was another critical shooting by police in the same area a few hours ago:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...inue/13989945/

This black family's attempts to assist in the post riot clean up struck me as particularly classy.
http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dai..._white_man.php

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

Well I see 2 issues from a personal observation and what I get from the news.

1) Seems that the current generation seems to have less respect for authority figures wether it be police or the teacher in front of the class, they think they own the world and may do anything they please without fearing any form of consequences as they think they have the right to do so.

2) From the other side when it comes to the police it seems most of their busy work is nowadays is writing out fines to fill up the state's treasure chest. I know if you do nothing wrong you shouldn't worry but sometimes it happens unintentional and something really that doesn't compromise any safety of the public order but you're beeing treated like a criminal making a mountain out of a mole hil while all that is needed is a couple of words a nod and of you go. So I understand why a time this frustrates the public giving them a sense that they longer serve to protect the public but rather are being used to squeeze more money out of it.

my 2 cent and my apologies for rambling to much OT to which I have to add is:

It's a tragic incident, but more so as it's being used as an excuse for the mayority to go on a full crime/misbehave spree and wreck the whole area like the 2011 London riots and iirc the burning of Paris in 2005 when a group of 3 youngers of North-African origin who where chased by the police after a reported break in one of them fried himself in a high voltage electricity box in a power substation which seemed enough reason for the youth to burn cars for the next week or two.

I'm glad at least to hear the parents ask the mayority to quiet down as this is something their child never wanted to happen. We can only hope the investigation gets to the bottom of this.

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

^ Can't argue with that.

I also agree, but I have to ponder what has caused this move away from a respect for authority figures, is it a change in media that has encouraged us to challenge authority? Perhaps the increase (and I mean this in no anti-American way, bear with me) in media from the US which is broadcast across Europe and the import of the American culture? Now, before people get up in arms, one has to remember that the US was based around the challenging of authority and the belief that no one entity should have absolute control over the people, hence their inbuilt distrust of the government and, indeed, the police force. So, as we receive and digest that message in American media (I mean, how many times in US police dramas does the protagonist come up against a corrupt official high up in the bureaucracy that hinders their progress?) it has translated into our adaptation of that mistrust of authoritarian figures, which has in return lead to our media taking a more aggressive tone towards the police force, which the government has been happy to accept as it gives it free reign to impose its own agenda on the police forces which had previously been relatively free from government intervention (up until around the 1980s and the miners strike, really).
Equally though, there have been a number of embarrassing incidents for the police, which the media has seized on in its quest to find the worse news to broadcast for the British public (which brings me onto another point, when did it become fashionable for media outlets to focus purely on bad news stories?), for example, much has been made of plebgate, and the current scandal in Manchester, however a nice good news story happened in London the other day when the commissioner of the police interrupted an interview with BBC Radio London to chase down and arrest a couple of thieves. Now, while the front pages of several newspapers are happy to go with the Manchester scandal, I wonder how deeply buried inside the papers is the news story of Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe? Thus the problems are blown out of proportion and the merits are buried deep. This is not just a problem with the police, but also with the NHS (I mean, how often do newspapers print stories of people being saved by the NHS vs those being failed by it?) and Fire brigade...and just about every aspect of life in Britain, we have an unhealthy obsession with bad news and it is effecting our attitude towards those around us.

Getting back to America though, I came across this stat from CNN:



obviously take it with a pinch of salt but needless to say, true or not, it's existence is only going to further enflame the problem between 'Blacks' and the police in America, I don't see another 1992 happening but certainly there's going to be a stronger movement against what is perceived to be institutionalised racism.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I also agree, but I have to ponder what has caused this move away from a respect for authority figures, is it a change in media that has encouraged us to challenge authority?

Well first step would be Parenting.

If I crossed the red line set by my parents I would be put on my place either verbally or a slap on the wrist.

nowadays the Parents treat their kids like the where the messiah and that they can do no wrong.
Example: I've seen at my school in the Netherlands a parent take his kid to the principal office to complain to the school about that his son has been suspended.
If I would be suspended of school...oh boy..grounded, privileges suspended and would have to make a formal apology to the school teacher or principal.

Also a part has to do with society especially when times are hard and both parents have to work hard to get around so that they have little time to spend with their kids. When I grew up my parents made sure one of them would be at home to pick us up, I know that now with the EU crisis it's become a luxury to be raised like that and you'll probably spend more time on your own then around you parents and I wager this is where in most cases it goes wrong as they have no boundaries and have a free pass to do pretty much what they want.

Trouble starts young.
So it's important for a parent to pay good attention to their kids and hopefully show them the right way.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Oberon

[...] obviously take it with a pinch of salt but needless to say, true or not, it's existence is only going to further enflame the problem between 'Blacks' and the police in America, I don't see another 1992 happening but certainly there's going to be a stronger movement against what is perceived to be institutionalised racism.

From this to the media loving to report "bad" things - only bad news are good news.

This becomes especially interesting when you look at a certain Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst, and the wars they caused, and financed.
If i did something so they gave me the Pulitzer prize, i would throw it in their face.


Apart from that, someone from the US recently told me there has been no racism in the US since the 1950ies. I did not object, but sometimes i wonder about human perception.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

Well first step would be Parenting.

If I crossed the red line set by my parents I would be put on my place either verbally or a slap on the wrist.

nowadays the Parents treat their kids like the where the messiah and that they can do no wrong.
Example: I've seen at my school in the Netherlands a parent take his kid to the principal office to complain to the school about that his son has been suspended.
If I would be suspended of school...oh boy..grounded, privileges suspended and would have to make a formal apology to the school teacher or principal.

Also a part has to do with society especially when times are hard and both parents have to work hard to get around so that they have little time to spend with their kids. When I grew up my parents made sure one of them would be at home to pick us up, I know that now with the EU crisis it's become a luxury to be raised like that and you'll probably spend more time on your own then around you parents and I wager this is where in most cases it goes wrong as they have no boundaries and have a free pass to do pretty much what they want.

Trouble starts young.
So it's important for a parent to pay good attention to their kids and hopefully show them the right way.

I think that's fifty/fifty really, I mean you can raise a kid to be an absolute angel, but as soon as he/she gets outside of your house and control then there's nothing you can do but try to pick up the pieces when they return, it's the old nature vs nurture thing.
It's also a bit of a catch-22 situation, some parents are afraid to discipline their children out of fear of catching the ire of social services, it's even worse if you happen to be fostering a child and they decide to lie and tell social services that you've been abusing them. It's a bit like that South Park episode 'The Wacky Molestation Adventure', and once you've got that black mark on your record it's a hell of a fight to get rid of it. However, equally there is no doubt that there are plenty of parents (both foster and non-foster) out there that DO abuse their children, and as such the system has been increasingly tightened so that the state has become a bit twitchy when it comes to the disciplining of children.
Now, when you couple that on to the general attitude of society now that authority figures are to be questioned, not obeyed, then it's small wonder that things are the way they are. Not that I'm excusing the behaviour of some parents or their children, I fully understand the references you make in that there are definitely some parents out there (usually on the Jeremy Kyle show) who struggle to control themselves, let alone their children, and I make no economic background discrimination here, I have seen the children of the rich and the poor and it's got nothing to do with their background as to how the child behaves (in fact, some rich peoples kids are worse than kids from a council estate ) but as always when the media spotlight falls upon the behaviour of children it will fall upon those from poor families on council estates, because there is nothing like a good bit of to make you feel better about yourself (I may be poor, but at least I'm not as bad as those losers). After all, as I mentioned earlier, during the 2011 riots one of the many people arrested after the incident was a millionaires daughter who was at university.

Originally Posted by Catfish

From this to the media loving to report "bad" things - only bad news are good news.

This becomes especially interesting when you look at a certain Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst, and the wars they caused, and financed.
If i did something so they gave me the Pulitzer prize, i would throw it in their face.


Apart from that, someone from the US recently told me there has been no racism in the US since the 1950ies. I did not object, but sometimes i wonder about human perception.

Whoops...ok, you got me there.
Prizes from bloodied hands aren't a new thing after all, the medallion that Obama wears around his neck was created by the guy who gave us TNT after all.
I do think that there is a problem in the US police system, if it's not racism then perhaps it's a slight twitchiness, but equally in a country where every person you meet might have the means to murder you from beyond hand reach distance then I suppose short of patrolling in and using bomb disposal robots to make arrests then you are going to be twitchy because every situation might be your last.
Drawing back from the 2nd Amendment for a moment though (since I have no wish to sail off that well travelled waterfall) there definitely does seem to be something causing a great disconnect between the US people and the police, and that disconnect grows bigger every year, from the Kent State massacre (ok, that was National Guard, not police), through to Rodney King, and now Michael Brown, and the fact that the police are closing ranks is not doing much to defuse the situation.
I'm following social media on this, I find in situations like this it's probably one of the better ways of getting raw information, and there's a strange irony in the alleged report that people from Gaza are tweeting to the people of Ferguson advice on how to cope with tear gas.
There's a livestream going on here: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9...events/3271930

(which goes to show how it's not easy to hide things in the modern interconnected media world, but that's another discussion entirely).
Furthermore, two reporters, one from the Huffington Post and the other from the Washington Post where arrested, detained (roughly) and then released with no knowledge of what they were arrested for.



I can't help but think that the St. Louis PD is making things worse for themselves.

EDIT: Just found this, twitter users from Gaza tweeting advice to protestors in Ferguson on how to deal with tear gas:



EDIT EDIT: Reddit are, once again, doing a sterling job of collating information from multiple sources in once place, this really is the era of the open source news station: http://www.reddit.com/live/tdrph3y49ftn/

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I think that's fifty/fifty really, I mean you can raise a kid to be an absolute angel, but as soon as he/she gets outside of your house and control then there's nothing you can do but try to pick up the pieces when they return, it's the old nature vs nurture thing.

Ow I totally agree it's something that can't be helped, however an effort is required from the parents when your kid is absorbing the things he encounters like a sponge is to show him what's right, wrong, what's dangerous and help to steer him into the right direction however that does mean that you'll have to let him at time to face the consequences of his actions in a way or form.

It's also a bit of a catch-22 situation, some parents are afraid to discipline their children out of fear of catching the ire of social services, it's even worse if you happen to be fostering a child and they decide to lie and tell social services that you've been abusing them. It's a bit like that South Park episode 'The Wacky Molestation Adventure', and once you've got that black mark on your record it's a hell of a fight to get rid of it. However, equally there is no doubt that there are plenty of parents (both foster and non-foster) out there that DO abuse their children, and as such the system has been increasingly tightened so that the state has become a bit twitchy when it comes to the disciplining of children.

Ah yes the minesweeper of parenting,

I'm strongly against child abuse and it sickens me when I read these horror cases where a child later is found in a plastic bag cut in pieces by its own parents where the child protective service really messed up by not acting after warnings from the people in the neighbourhood having 3 visits by representatives that reported signs that the child was in danger but didn't act upon it and well...you get that.

However I'm not against a slap on the wrist as imho a kick under the butt is a better teacher then being warned that if you continue to misbehave you'll get no desert. Not saying you should be kicked under your butt as soon you start doing something bad but know there's a limit when it comes to verbal warnings to stop your misbehaviour.

As you mentioned kids are smart enough that they know what will happen when they report this to child protective service and will abuse this by telling lies which will be a stain on the parents for a long time.

Like I said it's a minesweeper when it comes to parenting.

Now, when you couple that on to the general attitude of society now that authority figures are to be questioned, not obeyed, then it's small wonder that things are the way they are. Not that I'm excusing the behaviour of some parents or their children, I fully understand the references you make in that there are definitely some parents out there (usually on the Jeremy Kyle show) who struggle to control themselves, let alone their children, and I make no economic background discrimination here, I have seen the children of the rich and the poor and it's got nothing to do with their background as to how the child behaves (in fact, some rich peoples kids are worse than kids from a council estate ) but as always when the media spotlight falls upon the behaviour of children it will fall upon those from poor families on council estates, because there is nothing like a good bit of to make you feel better about yourself (I may be poor, but at least I'm not as bad as those losers). After all, as I mentioned earlier, during the 2011 riots one of the many people arrested after the incident was a millionaires daughter who was at university.

It'll suprise you how much you'll take from your own parents into raising your own kids but you'll probably change some things, my dad always said he'll never be like his father however when it came to raising us he did exactly raise us like his father raised him making sure we're well provided for with our necessities, drawing clear lines about rules and do's and dont's but never unfair. My mom would be the emotional pillar and took great care when one of us fell ill. Funny is that I notice in myself that I have the rational thoughts and desire for a certain amount of order from my father's side but yet I do have the emotional caring and support of my mother's side.
It's funny how those things can colide within thyself

Aye..the poor do not have the luxury that the rich have and tend to be look at differently through the eyes of society. One ends up in the newspaper the other in some tabloid/glamour magazine (and you can fill in which one ends up in one and the other) it's pethatic how the mayority as you said enjoy a good bit of poverty porn and judge them for what they are when they misbehave instead of what they did. I judge on what you did as a person not caring how much money you own or titles you have.

I may be poor

You poor?
Far from it..

[Dread Knot]

In addition to the reporters arrested, last night, the Ferguson police arrested a St. Louis city alderman. Previously, a state senator was tear gassed.

I'm really at a complete loss at how Ferguson could be handling this any worse than they are. They seem deaf, dumb and blind to how bad they look.

[Admiral Halsey]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

In addition to the reporters arrested, last night, the Ferguson police arrested a St. Louis city alderman. Previously, a state senator was tear gassed.

I'm really at a complete loss at how Ferguson could be handling this any worse than they are. They seem deaf, dumb and blind to how bad they look.

Isn't the St Louis police force the one running it and giving them orders?

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

Ow I totally agree it's something that can't be helped, however an effort is required from the parents when your kid is absorbing the things he encounters like a sponge is to show him what's right, wrong, what's dangerous and help to steer him into the right direction however that does mean that you'll have to let him at time to face the consequences of his actions in a way or form.

Indeed, but there's the giant crushing factor of society and in particular peer pressure that you have to factor in. Never underestimate the lengths that a child will go to in order to avoid being cast into the unpopular crowd, and to avoid bullying. Shop-lifting, smoking, drugs...a child may have a perfect up-bringing but once they hit school, that's when the parents start to lose control. Then, just when you think things can't get any worse...puberty hits and all hell breaks loose.

Ah yes the minesweeper of parenting,

I'm strongly against child abuse and it sickens me when I read these horror cases where a child later is found in a plastic bag cut in pieces by its own parents where the child protective service really messed up by not acting after warnings from the people in the neighbourhood having 3 visits by representatives that reported signs that the child was in danger but didn't act upon it and well...you get that.

However I'm not against a slap on the wrist as imho a kick under the butt is a better teacher then being warned that if you continue to misbehave you'll get no desert. Not saying you should be kicked under your butt as soon you start doing something bad but know there's a limit when it comes to verbal warnings to stop your misbehaviour.

As you mentioned kids are smart enough that they know what will happen when they report this to child protective service and will abuse this by telling lies which will be a stain on the parents for a long time.

Like I said it's a minesweeper when it comes to parenting.

Indeed, one of the biggest minefields out there. I was smacked...twice I think, once by my father because I ran out into the middle of a road, and once by my mother...I can't actually remember the reason why, but I learnt my lesson. Otherwise it was 'the voice' that kept me in control. I think that the fact that my mother had nearly two decades in animal welfare before she gave birth to me probably helped her a great deal in the long run when I was growing up!

It'll suprise you how much you'll take from your own parents into raising your own kids but you'll probably change some things, my dad always said he'll never be like his father however when it came to raising us he did exactly raise us like his father raised him making sure we're well provided for with our necessities, drawing clear lines about rules and do's and dont's but never unfair. My mom would be the emotional pillar and took great care when one of us fell ill. Funny is that I notice in myself that I have the rational thoughts and desire for a certain amount of order from my father's side but yet I do have the emotional caring and support of my mother's side.
It's funny how those things can colide within thyself

Oh aye, I've taken a lot from my mother, not so much from my father as I only spent eight years with him before the divorce, but I have picked up this and that from him, definitely my love of trains and buses, that's for certain.
There's no doubt that your parents leave an indelible mark on you, after all, they are the ones that spend the most time with you when you are at your most impressionable age. This is one of the reason I fail to understand those rich people who farm out their children to nannies and creches, and then wonder why the child rejects them at a later age.

Aye..the poor do not have the luxury that the rich have and tend to be look at differently through the eyes of society. One ends up in the newspaper the other in some tabloid/glamour magazine (and you can fill in which one ends up in one and the other) it's pethatic how the mayority as you said enjoy a good bit of poverty porn and judge them for what they are when they misbehave instead of what they did. I judge on what you did as a person not caring how much money you own or titles you have.

You poor?
Far from it..

Oh goodness, I wasn't referring to me, I mean I'm not well off but I'm not what I would call poor, not in the grand scheme of things. I meant those people who look at things like 'Benefits street' to give them a sense of superiority over those who are even more poor, a bit like the old Two Ronnies sketch:

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Indeed, one of the biggest minefields out there. I was smacked...twice I think, once by my father because I ran out into the middle of a road, and once by my mother...I can't actually remember the reason why,

Probably for crying to her because your father smacked you.