Property Rights vs 2A Rights....

[CaptainHaplo]

I am likely going to get booted from a different forum over this issue, but its one that has long been one that "get's my goat".

I know some of you, my fellow subsim.com'ers, own firearms.
I know some of you, like me, partake in constitutional (open) carry.
I know some of you choose to utilize legal concealed carry.

So here is my question to you responsible firearm owners who carry - especially for those that do so concealed....

Assume a posted sign does NOT carry the weight of law in this case, if you are about to enter a private place of business and see a "no weapons, concealed or otherwise" sign - would you disregard the sign and enter to do your business, knowing that such an act was legal?

Please feel free to provide your reasoning on why you voted as you did.

[gimpy117]

I'd check my gun at the door if i needed to, It's their property, and as far as i know their right

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

I chose No. Here's why. Though the sign itself, according to the scenario, cannot deny me the legal right to carry my weapon, if I am to assume the laws are indeed laid this way, it can be inferred that the local jurisdiction and zeitgeist places a very high priority on individual rights to include the right of self-defense. I just don't see this place denying the Castle Defense or Stand Your Ground.

So, let's say I conceal carry but get discovered. The proprietor won't be able to call the police because carrying per se is not illegal in this case. However, if he simply deploys his own gun and blows me away, he'll likely have an excellent case by the morals of the state. Even though the sign has no legal force, nevertheless his wishes have been made clear and I went into his property defying them. This makes me an intruder with less than innocent intent, and if he says he felt threatened by my concealed (or even open-carry) gun and blows me away well somehow I think he'll get away with it.

[Skybird]

No vote.

Haplo,

why haven't you included an option "I would practice my rights where they are valid, but give up my gun when entering that company's property if they do not allow guns?"

Suggestive polling?

[CaptainHaplo]

Skybird,

Your right to carry (in the US) would, under the given scenario, be entirely legal to exercise. To say you would practice them "where valid" means you would carry even if the company disallowed them, as the company policy has no force of law.

Not sure what option you wanted there.....

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Skybird,

Your right to carry (in the US) would, under the given scenario, be entirely legal to exercise. To say you would practice them "where valid" means you would carry even if the company disallowed them, as the company policy has no force of law.

Not sure what option you wanted there.....

Without knowing the specific paragraphs in the US laws, I am certain of one thing: that private owners of property have the right to rule that private persons with arms are not allowed to enter that private property.

Private property is guaranteed in the US not one bit less than in Germany. If you come and pay a visit to me, and you were armed, and I do not want you running around on my property with a weapon on your belt, I have the right to deny you access. Like I also have the right to refuse you entrance through my door if you do not put off your shoes, assuming I were a pedantic cleaner.

Your gun does not give you a right to enforce your freedom onto me, in my privatesphere, on my property. At the gate, at the fence is where your right ends. The law you claim may be valid in the public sphere, when we meet on neutral, open ground. Private property owners as well as business and institutions have the right to rule that they do not want an armed audience. Of course! For the same reason schools and unioversity, museum and public libraries may rule that weapons are not allowed inside. If you are armed and demand entrance to my property, and I do not like it, and you enforce it, it is an attack by you, against me. When I get attacked, I have the right of self-defence.

[Osmium Steele]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Your gun does not give you a right to enforce your freedom onto me, in my privatesphere, on my property.

In your own home/apartment/flat etc. you are correct. In the US, the law changes if we are talking about a place of business open to the public.

In such cases, the 2nd Amendment and various state laws protect the individual's right to carry a firearm in public places just as the 14th Amendment and various civil rights laws protect the individual's right to go about in public without regard to race or other defined categories.

In short, if a person chooses to open a business to the public, they forego certain property and freedom of assembly rights.

[Osmium Steele]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

So, let's say I conceal carry but get discovered. The proprietor won't be able to call the police because carrying per se is not illegal in this case. However, if he simply deploys his own gun and blows me away, he'll likely have an excellent case by the morals of the state. Even though the sign has no legal force, nevertheless his wishes have been made clear and I went into his property defying them. This makes me an intruder with less than innocent intent, and if he says he felt threatened by my concealed (or even open-carry) gun and blows me away well somehow I think he'll get away with it.

We need an eyeroll emoticon.

Sorry, not even close here. Hanging a sign does not supercede one's 2nd ammendment rights. The owner, if he/she is a responsible gun owner, would know that. In the straw man scenario above, the proprietor would be charged with some form of murder, depending on the state involved.

The rule of thumb is the definition of self defense, defined as "That force necessary to defend yourself or another person from the threat of death or serious bodily harm." There is no state in the union which would categorize simply noticing a concealed firearm on someone as such a threat.

BTW, I am an NRA, and formerly DoD, certified firearms instructor and rangemaster at my club and for my company.

I have more than a passing knowledge of firearm regulations and laws in the US.

Oh, as to the poll...

If practicable, I would find another establishment in which to spend my money, but if it could not be avoided, I would certainly respect the wishes of the proprietor and lock my weapon in the gunsafe in my vehicle for the duration of my visit.

[razark]

There's no option for "Yes, I would respect the owner's wishes and not carry on his property"?

Without knowing the specific paragraphs in the US laws, I am certain of one thing: that private owners of property have the right to rule that private persons with arms are not allowed to enter that private property.

How can someone say they are certain like that
Terms and conditions apply just like thay always do, in this case the "private property" is open to the public so it introduces a whole library of "yes but" and "no unless" conditions.

Private property is guaranteed in the US not one bit less than in Germany. If you come and pay a visit to me, and you were armed, and I do not want you running around on my property with a weapon on your belt, I have the right to deny you access.

You sound like that hotel owner who got sued because he refused to have a couple of poofs on his property

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by razark

There's no option for "Yes, I would respect the owner's wishes and not carry on his property"?

This.

Interesting topic. The last lab I worked in, 3/4 of my co-workers had concealed carry permits (don't mess w/ our lab). Technically, the rule was no guns at work, so I don't know what they did.
At Oregon St U, they were trying to arrest people who carried, but legally they can't do that, because OR law says you can carry and they have no legal right to make up their own law. There was a big fight about this last year.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by razark

There's no option for "Yes, I would respect the owner's wishes and not carry on his property"?

That's my vote, if I carried. I don't see a routine crime problem so I do not carry.

[nikimcbee]

I've thought about getting a permit, but it seems like to much of a legal hassel IMO. I almost got one when I lived in Eugene (ore-gone), because our neighbors had been broken into twice. And they have a crime problem with meth-heads.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

I've thought about getting a permit, but it seems like to much of a legal hassel IMO. I almost got one when I lived in Eugene (ore-gone), because our neighbors had been broken into twice. And they have a crime problem with meth-heads.

But they've been fine since you've moved away...

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

But they've been fine since you've moved away...

They are all in jail.