In Border States, BATFE Asks: "May We See Your Guns?"

[SUBMAN1]

Nice.

-S

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=4990

Friday, June 19, 2009 NRA-ILA has recently received several calls from NRA members in border states who have been visited or called by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. In some cases, agents have asked to enter these people's homes, and requested serial numbers of all firearms the members possess.

In each case, the agents were making inquiries based on the number of firearms these NRA members had recently bought, and in some cases the agents said they were asking because the members had bought types of guns that are frequently recovered in Mexico.

This kind of questioning may or may not be part of a legitimate criminal investigation. For example, when BATFE traces a gun seized after use in a crime, manufacturers' and dealers' records will normally lead to the first retail buyer of that gun, and investigators will have to interview the buyer to find out how the gun ended up in criminal hands. But in other cases, the questioning may simply be based on information in dealers' records, with agents trying to "profile" potentially suspicious purchases.

On the other hand, some of the agents have used heavy-handed tactics. One reportedly demanded that a gun owner return home early from a business trip, while another threatened to "report" an NRA member as "refusing to cooperate." That kind of behavior is outrageous and unprofessional.

Whether agents act appropriately or not, concerned gun owners should remember that all constitutional protections apply. Answering questions in this type of investigation is generally an individual choice. Most importantly, there are only a few relatively rare exceptions to the general Fourth Amendment requirement that law enforcement officials need a warrant to enter a home without the residents' consent. There is nothing wrong with politely, but firmly, asserting your rights.

If BATFE contacts you and you have any question about how to respond, you may want to consult a local attorney. NRA members may also call NRA-ILA's Office of Legislative Counsel at (703) 267-1161 for further information. Whether contacting a local attorney or NRA, be sure to provide as many details as possible, including the date, time, and location, agent's name, and specific questions asked.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

What's the problem here? What exactly is so horrid about knowing who's got what?

[GoldenRivet]

"Mr. Goldenrivet, May we see your guns?"

"If you produce a warrant, otherwise... f*ck off and have a nice day."

Originally Posted by Kapitan_Phillips

What's the problem here? What exactly is so horrid about knowing who's got what?

Privacy is enormously valued in the United States... Uncle Sam needs to keep to himself.

[Sailor Steve]

Because the theory of the American system is that the government, and you, have no right to know anything about me except what I want you too. We have a census every ten years, and these days the forms are so complex and intrusive that I never answer any questions except the one required by the Constitution: "How many people live in your residence?" Everything else is specifically denied the government.

@ Subman1: I apologize, a little. That is one part of the Constitution that does indeed directly affect me, which means that that one part is for me "the law of the land".

[Kapitan_Phillips]

My point is, they specified border states, where I would think there would be illegal weapon smuggling. I understand your value of privacy, but where guns are concerned, I think its important to know where things are. That way, if one is stolen, it can be tracked and returned to you.

I think you're over-reacting just a little bit, to be honest. Over here, if you wish to own a shotgun or hunting rifle, the police keep a record of what you've got, and make a check in your home to ensure that you have the correct facilities to ensure that the weapon is stored safely and securely.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Kapitan_Phillips

My point is, they specified border states, where I would think there would be illegal weapon smuggling. I understand your value of privacy, but where guns are concerned, I think its important to know where things are. That way, if one is stolen, it can be tracked and returned to you.

I think you're over-reacting just a little bit, to be honest. Over here, if you wish to own a shotgun or hunting rifle, the police keep a record of what you've got, and make a check in your home to ensure that you have the correct facilities to ensure that the weapon is stored safely and securely.

This is why it is important for the owner to inventory his firearms, record types of firearms and associated serial numbers. - if a firearm goes missing he can then provide the authorities with the information

once compiled this list should be copied in triplicate, one copy palced in a fireproof - waterproof case, one copy placed in a bank safe deposit box, and the third copy placed off premisis at a safe, reliable third location of your choosing.

when i was 12 years old, my father and I went through all 130 firearms in our home, compiled a list of types and serial numbers for the firearms, along with serial numbers (or descriptions if SNs unavailable) of each accessory (scope, sheath, bayonet, bi-pod, holster etc.)

a responsible gun owner will do this - and revise the list whenever new firearms are added to the collection.

i consider a purpose built combination safe to be a reliable and appropriate place to store firarms of virtually any size or caliber. the police or the ATF or FBI dont need to know JACK about what i have.

the revolutionary war was a long time ago, but in many american minds - it wasnt THAT long ago.

the reason the government doesnt need to know what i have in my home is because the government might be the very oppressive entity i may one day have to fight against... my firearms are not just for criminals. it happened once in america - and no matter how far out it might sound... it could happen again.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Kapitan_Phillips

Over here, if you wish to own a shotgun or hunting rifle, the police keep a record of what you've got, and make a check in your home to ensure that you have the correct facilities to ensure that the weapon is stored safely and securely.

And that's part of the reason why we're not "over here" anymore. Literally.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And that's part of the reason why we're not "over here" anymore. Literally.

agreed

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

This is why it is important for the owner to inventory his firearms, record types of firearms and associated serial numbers. - if a firearm goes missing he can then provide the authorities with the information

Ah-kay, point taken.

[Jimbuna]

In Britain it is said "An Englishmans home is his castle".

I readily admit it is even more so in the US...especially where firearms are concerned.

[Stealth Hunter]

Who are these people they requested serials from? That's what I'd like to find out before I took a side on this particular issue.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

Who are these people they requested serials from? That's what I'd like to find out before I took a side on this particular issue.

i dont care if its bonnie and clyde in a fortified house with billy the kid, the hole in the wall gang and bin laden...

without a warrant - it doesnt matter who they are

from the article it sounds to be law abiding NRA members

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

without a warrant - it doesnt matter who they are

Well really it does matter, because if these people have a history of gun smuggling (big problem down here) or have been caught in the past with an illegal firearm, the government should have every right to check on what weapons they own and get detailed information about them.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

the government should have every right to check on what weapons they own and get detailed information about them.

yes... with a warrant

if they have that history - obtaining a warrant should be a piece of cake, or should we ALL eventually just open our doors to Obama and his gestapo clowns no questions asked?

Are you new to America?

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

yes... with a warrant

A warrant should not be a mandatory requirement for that kind of situation, simply because of the amount of time it would and could take (time enough to dispose of any evidence) and the fact you're dealing with a convicted felon who has shown no regard for the law in the past.

But in regards to good and upstanding citizens with no criminal background (as of then), I think the standard warrant laws we're using right now should be kept (so one would not be needed if the citizen agreed to let the law search their home and obtain information on firearms they have, but one would be needed if they refused).

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

if they have that history - obtaining a warrant should be a piece of cake,

That's hardly guaranteed given how many of these judges can be.

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

or should we ALL eventually just open our doors to Obama and his gestapo clowns no questions asked?

I have no trouble doing it. But then again, I'm only one person with nothing to hide.

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Are you new to America?

If you think asking for information about guns in this kind of manner is an authoritarian thing to do (as bad as the Gestapo's tactics apparently lol), then Golden, you have never lived in a country or even been CLOSE to a country with an actual authoritarian government, and you would not last long in one either...

I'm lucky to be living under these kinds of laws (I could be a lot worse off right now), and so are you, quite frankly. As I result, I'm not going to complain. But if you want to that's your right. Just my two cents.