Why Killing Enemy Submarines Is Not as Easy as It Use to Be

[Shadow]

This is actually an article I just read on the bus. Figured this is a good forum for it since it has a few bits of interesting facts about (really) modern sub warfare, and could be contemplated when making present day mods/DLC.

"A useful reference is a 2016 NATO publication, Alliance airborne anti-submarine warfare. It isn’t the lightest read going around, and it even includes a warning notice.

But it contains some useful analysis, provided you avoid head injuries while reading it. I read it so you don’t have to.

The take-home message is clear: the days of passively listening for noisy submarines are over. The report makes the following crucial observation: ‘As the ocean grows louder and warmer while submarines become quieter, Cold War methods of submarine detection have begun to falter in today’s ocean environment.’

The ocean environment is indeed getting steadily noisier. One of the interesting (and happy) reasons is the resurgence of whales, which fill the ocean with a cacophonous long-range noise as well as being false passive and active targets. Cargo shipping and deep-sea oil exploration also contribute, resulting in a doubling of background noise every decade or so over the past 50 years."

Link to the article

[jerseytom]

It isn’t the lightest read going around, and it even includes a warning notice.

My kind of bedtime reading material. Will flip through the presentation later, sounds interesting.

What I think would be fun as a campaign set for CW or a similar game would be something that captures doctrine differences through the year. US vs USSR during the Cold War. Or US from merchant hunting, to Cold War doctrine, to beyond.

[Wiz33]

And then there is this:

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the...americas-21590

Off board sensor have actually be discussed for year, look like they're about to move into design and validation.

[Delgard]

I have noticed people asking for more neutral or environmental entities in the game. I wonder if neutrals can be added where the AI does not recognize them as the enemy. Especially if it would incur another navy from attacking them.

Also, if "some" of those neutrals clandestinely reported the sighting of warships once out of the area. It might not be actionable intelligence, but with time it would show active ports or routes.

For a submarine, a noisy environment might be a blessing, if the TMA personnel are up to it.

Maybe we will make the press!

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Delgard

I have noticed people asking for more neutral or environmental entities in the game. I wonder if neutrals can be added where the AI does not recognize them as the enemy. Especially if it would incur another navy from attacking them.

Also, if "some" of those neutrals clandestinely reported the sighting of warships once out of the area. It might not be actionable intelligence, but with time it would show active ports or routes.

For a submarine, a noisy environment might be a blessing, if the TMA personnel are up to it.

Maybe we will make the press!

Yes, people keep asking for this, but I've yet to see anyone think it through and say how it makes sense in a hot zone like CW's theatre in the middle of World War III.

Neutral vessels would stay the hell away from warships (warned off as required), and constantly broadcast their neutrality to avoid being accidentally sunk. So it'd behoove them to have both sides aware of their position at all times.

Friendly units, you'd know where they are at all times, like you do the P-3 Orions and NATO satellites, but you wouldn't come anywhere near them to prevent friendly fire incidents. A submarine's job is to remain hidden, unknown and alone most of the time.

So, in practical terms, you would never find friendlies and neutrals within the same mission area as hostiles. And outside, you wouldn't have any interactions with them due to your job (and would never confuse them with enemies due to strategic intel), so at best blue and green icons would only clutter the strategic map.

That kind of target identification gameplay is better suited to Harpoon-esque flashpoint scenarios, in which you might be carrying out operations in relatively small areas where non-combatants might be puttering about doing their thing. But a World War is very much not business as usual.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know much about the doctrines which would kick in during this kind of high-intensity conflict, but from the logical standpoint I can't see how surface groups wouldn't have ample exclusion zones around them, preventing non-mission (neutral/friendly) units from wandering in, in Cold Waters' context.

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by Shadow

Yes, people keep asking for this, but I've yet to see anyone think it through and say how it makes sense in a hot zone like CW's theatre in the middle of World War III.

Neutral vessels would stay the hell away from warships (warned off as required), and constantly broadcast their neutrality to avoid being accidentally sunk. So it'd behoove them to have both sides aware of their position at all times.

Friendly units, you'd know where they are at all times, like you do the P-3 Orions and NATO satellites, but you wouldn't come anywhere near them to prevent friendly fire incidents. A submarine's job is to remain hidden, unknown and alone most of the time.

So, in practical terms, you would never find friendlies and neutrals within the same mission area as hostiles. And outside, you wouldn't have any interactions with them due to your job (and would never confuse them with enemies due to strategic intel), so at best blue and green icons would only clutter the strategic map.

That kind of target identification gameplay is better suited to Harpoon-esque flashpoint scenarios, in which you might be carrying out operations in relatively small areas where non-combatants might be puttering about doing their thing. But a World War is very much not business as usual.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know much about the doctrines which would kick in during this kind of high-intensity conflict, but from the logical standpoint I can't see how surface groups wouldn't have ample exclusion zones around them, preventing non-mission (neutral/friendly) units from wandering in, in Cold Waters' context.

Yep, until we get to regional warfare. Neutral unit doesn't make any sense. Allied unit will add flavor to the game and give sense that's it's just not the player against the world. I actually started a thread about how to incorporate allied unit in game here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=232525

[JhonSilver]

"No-fly zone", not ??
Whats Neutral???
Identification system will not answer - so catch a missile.

No neutral are in war zone.