'Seawolves' contains Mods by...

[Abraham]

As a lawyer - though not practicing and certainly no expert in intellectual ownership and/or copyright - I feel that Shadow9216's statement appeals more to what I would consider as the law than Beery's speculations. Not that I don't understand his worries and the worries of many on this site though.
I must say feel very good about the way the community is dealing with the X 1 problem and with Deathping. First there was some confusion but as usual we got our own act together and with the help of Neal and John we discussed this potental 'explosive' matter in a level haeded way and gave it maximum exposure.... I fear that unless someone takes real legal action against X1, they will succeed in cheating the community.I don't think legal action is advisable at the moment. Let's wait how this X 1 thing devellops.
And "cheating the community"? No way, a few days ago there was even talk of dividing the community. Now we are stronger and more united on this issue than ever.
The ones who will be cheated are the people outside the community who will buy this X 1 product. But I doubt if that will be many...
Still, let's watch X 1 and Deathping closely!

[terrapin]

Well, that's good to know. But the problem is still there, and I fear that unless someone takes real legal action against X1, they will succeed in cheating the community.

If you are all really sure of this you could contact the German Police and file a complaint ?

Its free :D And it is atleast a good start.

The X1 director's name and address are listed on the X1 website.

You could contact the following Police station:
Polizeistation Mörfelden-Walldorf
Okrfiteler Straße 5
64546 Mörfelden-Walldorf
Telefon: 06105 / 40 06 0
Telefax: 06105 / 40 06 16

THAT might be a good possibilty, too....I'll help if translation s needed. Please send it to my email addy, not through PM (account swamped...:))

[Beery]

Sounds like a letter-writing campaign to Ubisoft might be an idea. I urge everyone concerned about this issue to write a letter to Ubisoft about this. Let them know your concerns, and how allowing X1's 'theftware' mod will undermine the mod community and thus adversely affect Ubisoft itself.

Hey, I like that word: 'theftware'! LOL. Did I just invent that, or did someone else invent it first?

[Shadow9216]

Uh, I already copyrighted that and now you, uh, like owe me money or something? Yeah, that was it... :rotfl:

[terrapin]

Sounds like a letter-writing campaign to Ubisoft might be an idea. I urge everyone concerned about this issue to write a letter to Ubisoft about this. Let them know your concerns, and how allowing X1's 'theftware' mod will undermine the mod community and thus adversely affect Ubisoft itself.

Hey, I like that word: 'theftware'! LOL. Did I just invent that, or did someone else invent it first?

How about posting a draft of a letter inhere, so people can use it?

[Beery]

And "cheating the community"? No way, a few days ago there was even talk of dividing the community. Now we are stronger and more united on this issue than ever.
The ones who will be cheated are the people outside the community who will buy this X 1 product.

By 'the community' I mean everyone who plays the game. I regard all SH3 players as one big community.

[Beery]

How about posting a draft of a letter inhere, so people can use it?

The problem with doing that is that companies are more likely to dismiss or downplay issues when they get lots of the exact same letter coming through. It makes it look like spam or a PR campaign. It's far more effective when they get lots of letters clearly written by individuals.

[terrapin]

How about posting a draft of a letter inhere, so people can use it?

The problem with doing that is that companies are more likely to dismiss or downplay issues when they get lots of the exact same letter coming through. It makes it look like spam or a PR campaign. It's far more effective when they get lots of letters clearly written by individuals.

A valid point....

[Beery]

I wish I could find out where to send such a letter. I've searched Ubisoft's site and I can't find anything that relates to legal issues or general complaints, or anything like that.

[terrapin]

I wish I could find out where to send such a letter. I've searched Ubisoft's site and I can't find anything that relates to legal issues or general complaints, or anything like that.


I'd send it to the PR (press) department...

[Abraham]

And "cheating the community"? No way, a few days ago there was even talk of dividing the community. Now we are stronger and more united on this issue than ever.
The ones who will be cheated are the people outside the community who will buy this X 1 product.

By 'the community' I mean everyone who plays the game. I regard all SH3 players as one big community.
I will not start a fight about thís, dear Beery, but I must say I disagree. The Community is the people who actively engage on these forums. I know a few outside who are real golfholes and I would not like to consider them members of this Community.
You know them too; one used his active sonar on this thread and got exposed, surfaced in the UBI-forum a few times. Left some stinking diesel fumes...

@ Shadow9216: I like the word 'theftware' by Beery, that you just registered. Can I use it? Then you can use 'copywrong' which I just registered and we could write lines like: "X1 will have copywrong on its theftware..."
:lol:

[Beery]

Well, what I mean to say is that the regular players are our community too. I think it is a mistake to have an 'us and them' mentality, separating Subsim members from the wider SH3-playing community. There are going to be victims of X1 outside our little band, and I think we need to look out for their interests too. It is more important to care for the game community as a whole - if we keep the interests of all players in mind, then all players will be supportive of us. If we keep only Subsim members in mind, we will only be able to rely on the support of Subsim members. It's a simple matter of numbers, and this is a time when everyone can benefit from supporting our cause. If we ignore the wider community, they will undoubtedly ignore us, because at the moment, most of them don't even know about this issue, and some don't see how it is threatening them. If we ignore them, they might easily be swayed by X1's argument, which amounts to "Hey, here's a new add-on for SH3 - buy it!" - it's a convincing argument, especially when we're not there to say "Hey folks, X1 is taking advantage of you!"

[Beery]

For those who want to send letters/emails, here are the US and UK press contacts:

UNITED KINGDOM
Lidia Stojanovic
lidia.stojanovic@ubisoft.com
Chantrey Court
Minorca Road
Weybridge, Surrey
KT13 8DU
Tel: + 44 (1932) 838 230
Fax: + 44 (1932) 838 274


USA
Jaime Borasi
jaime.borasi@ubisoft.com
- 625 Third Street, 3rd floor
San Francisco - CA 94107
Tel: +1 (415) 547 4000
Fax: +1 (415) 547 4001

- Red Storm
3200 Gateway Centre Boulevard
Suite 100
Morrisville - NC 27560
Tel: +1 (919) 460 1776
Fax: +1 (919) 460 1502

[Reggie McNeal]

There are no mods in the release version that are used without permission.

Watch for an official notice in the next day or two...

[Nico71]

"Bilge Rat" :rotfl:

[Drebbel]

"Bilge Rat" :rotfl:

Not really, he is a Helmsman

:know:

[Beery]

I've sent four emails to the British, French, German and US press offices at Ubisoft, expressing my worries about the Seewolfe product, and asking them to investigate the matter. I suggest others do the same. If X1 is acting ethically, no harm will be done, but if they are acting irresponsibly, then at least Ubisoft will be aware of the issue, and if they don't do anything about it, at least we'll know whose side Ubisoft is on.

[jasonb885]

The problem as I see it is that if X1 gets these stolen mods published in a commercial form, and if they make money from them, they may automatically have a strong de facto ownership claim since they have a financial stake on these mods - which means that if the original authors of these mods try to release those mods (which are their own work) for free, X1 could even take them to court and have their own case in terms of loss of revenue, etc. The courts very likely regard copyright as only meaningful when loss of revenue is at issue. In such a case, the courts could be persuaded to disallow testimony regarding the original authorship, since the original authors ascribed no monetary value to the mod. That means that anything in the Seewolfe mod could be deemed illegal for any of us to use in free mods, even if one of us was the original author of that part of the mod. If Seewolfe is released in commercial form, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will have a copyright attached to it. If X1 are unprincipled enough to steal other peoples' work, do you really think they would balk at using a lawsuit to take some modmakers to the cleaners financially?


Good grief Beery thats scarery. I sure hope it dosn't come to that. :nope:

I can't imagine that would happen.

X1 is obviously a very small operation.

There will be no courts involved in this.

Seriously, guys, give it a rest already.

Or is someone here going to step up and retain a lawyer? No? Moving on...

[jasonb885]

There are no mods in the release version that are used without permission.

Watch for an official notice in the next day or two...

Only after being caught and called out.

Funny.

Go stand in the corner.

:nope:

[Jace11]

Can't wait till it's finally released, there are 2 or 3 games shops in town, Ill rush there, pick it up, have a look at the box, and slip it behind some title that nobody will ever buy...

Just gotta think of a really poor game for the PC in the simulation section. CFS??

Any ideas...

[Wulfmann]

Still trying to stay in the very lonely middle.

Let me see if I have this right.

1; X-1 announced it was removing any mod it did not get permission to use.

2; Many still feel upset regarding X-1 because there were mods originally intended to be used and even though they now will not be; they are still upset, understandable but, refer to number 1

3; I keep hearing that X-1 is a small poor company so I am assuming all agree this is not Siemens or Krupp backed German industrialist looking to crush the hearts and souls of individual modders and begin a push to take over the world!
One thing being presented that could be viewed as flaming, is the idea X-1 intends to get hold of mods and then use that to sue us all over the world (The modders are, in fact, all over the world.) Refer to your admittance to them being a small poor company and then think about that

4; Many unsuspecting people will buy this and be hurt???? That is not true and a little over the top. I may agree I would not want to, but so many people are afraid to mod and I dare anyone here to say modding has no risk of CTD difficulties. If this mod installs many improvements, that UBI certainly failed correcting, and does so with a self installer allowing the DL challenged to improve their game it provides a good service and if does it without any unauthorized mod, then I fail to see anything but whining for the sake of keeping a negative worm eating fest going. The cost of this mod will be the cost of seeing a movie with a friend so if one gets one weeks good play it has been less entertainment money than War of the Worlds (as compared to War of the Mods)

I may be new to SH3 but I am not new to modding and have spent countless hours helping others work out their problems in FSs.
Many things have been difficult in SH3 for me and most should know that in you have helped me work through them. Trust me here guys. The majority of gamers are not modders and don’t want to be.

Why do you think IL-2 is 10-20-50 times more popular than CFS3. It does not require a degree from MIT to turn a piece of crap from an inferior FS into a vastly superior FS. However, even those that admit to CFS3 superiority also say they want to enjoy the game and not come home from work to work even harder when they can turn on IL-2 and have fun. (Please let this be what it is regarding a comparison with those that would rather not mod and not an IL-2 –CFS3 pissing contest. PM me but have a list of FS credentials regarding aeronautics and an extensive mod history or don’t waste my time with an opinion I don’t care about and I don’t care if you agree with mine)

We are a small group and I again ask for DL numbers of the 5 hottest mods. Why can’t those numbers be posted? Are you afraid they are so low by comparison to the game sold they will prove the X-1 idea a good one?

The modders lobbied and got a ground swell that forced X-1 to react and give in to its demands. Having done that it now seems like you all are looking to expand this to other areas. Is it to keep the war going?

Exactly what do you want X-1 to do? Not make mods? Not use mods they get permission to use?

List your demands for them to see.
X-1 we want you to: Place those demands here. __________________

They will read it and everyone else will as well.

No offence but what was asked for has been achieved and I am at a loss as to what good is now being done by wild speculative legal mumbo jumbo. BTW, the German police do not take kindly to criminal complaints that have no merit. Just a thought, make sure it is a legitimate complaint.
I must be very dumb as I have no idea what that would be.

As one who truly wants the best for this community, I have blatantly stated the above. It is how it looks from the middle, the no man’s land that should not be there.

Wulfmann

[Beery]

Let me see if I have this right.

1; X-1 announced it was removing any mod it did not get permission to use.

Past experience has shown X1 to be a tiny bit unscrupulous. If we go by what they've said, more fool us. I go by this maxim: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

2; Many still feel upset regarding X-1 because there were mods originally intended to be used and even though they now will not be; they are still upset, understandable but, refer to number 1

Ignores the possibility that X1 is acting unscrupulously. I refer you to my response to #1.

3; I keep hearing that X-1 is a small poor company so I am assuming all agree this is not Siemens or Krupp backed German industrialist looking to crush the hearts and souls of individual modders and begin a push to take over the world!
One thing being presented that could be viewed as flaming, is the idea X-1 intends to get hold of mods and then use that to sue us all over the world (The modders are, in fact, all over the world.) Refer to your admittance to them being a small poor company and then think about that

I said right away that I was speculating, and I said right away that I don't know the law. But I should remind you of Terrapin's earlier post:

"Aah...going through our 'unread messages' folder I just noticed we got mail from 'Ossi'. He's threatening - in rather bad German - to sue us... "

So do you still claim that I'm flaming by claiming that X1 might be out to sue us? The fact that a representative of X1 has threatened a lawsuit already should speak volumes, but that's just me.

Anyway, my point was that this may have repercussions beyond the superficial, and fear of the unscrupulous use of the law is often more potent than the reality, which may lead to people being unwilling to go against X1's copyright notice. If a mod-maker who was unaware of all this read X1's copyright notice, how would he know that X1 did not have the right to claim copyright on the freeware mods Seewolfe may contain?

4; Many unsuspecting people will buy this and be hurt???? That is not true and a little over the top.

You know for a fact that it's not true? I think you're underestimating the potential for harm. You say you're in the middle, yet you only take X1's arguments into consideration. We can't only look at the best case scenario, because X1 has already proven to be unethical. If X1 publishes mods that are available for free, then people will be financially hurt - cheated in fact. X1 has already shown that it was fully willing to cheat people in this way. It would be naive in the extreme to simply take their word for it at this stage.

I may agree I would not want to, but so many people are afraid to mod and I dare anyone here to say modding has no risk of CTD difficulties.

This is rich, because if one group of mod-makers have a long history of half-assed mods, it is the people behind the Seewolfe add-on. Worldmod (the precursor to Seewolfe) was horribly bug-ridden, to such an extent that I was embarrassed about it - and I had nothing to do with it. That mod reflected poorly on the whole mod community. I have no doubt that Seewolfe will be more bug-ridden than most freeware mods.

Exactly what do you want X-1 to do? Not make mods? Not use mods they get permission to use?

It would be nice if we didn't have to remind them not to use mods they have no right to charge money for. We are still in the position where they say they have 'permission' to use mods - but the fact is that they only have permission to use them in NON-COMMERCIAL mods. If you don't see the problem there, then you have missed some fundamental point.

[Jace11]

Sorry I didn't read all your long winded argument Wolfy.

Er, probably cause for me it isn't a debate anymore. They got caught out, they are deperately trying to make amends by removing the non-authorized content. They lied before, and they continue to hide behind aliases and new accounts etc. Their PR has taken a real knock, god knows how much damage they have done to themselves.

It's their own fault.

They were deceptive about its content, took others work, apparently it hasn't gone GOLD as they said. They said they have permission from people who were never contacted. They hide behind aliases and new accounts and post "I will buy this fantastic product", then post pornography here (that is their managing director!!?!!).

Now you ask us to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Sure Wulfy sure...

Did you get a promise of free copy or something...

[Beery]

X1 is obviously a very small operation.

There will be no courts involved in this.

Seriously, guys, give it a rest already.

Or is someone here going to step up and retain a lawyer? No? Moving on...

I think you're missing the point. If X1 includes freeware mods, and if they include a copyright notice in their Seewolfe product, that very notice, whether or not it has legal standing, will dissuade modmakers from using freeware mods that they should have every right to use. This is not a case of us needing lawyers. It's a matter of stopping X1 from claiming copyright on material that isn't theirs to claim copyright on.

[Nico71]

Did you get a promise of free copy or something...

There are other ways to get a free copy of it! :rotfl:

[Abraham]

Dear Wulfmann,

I agree on much what you say. You try to find some middle ground, which is fine with me. You are not alone there and I don't think that anyone is flaming at you because of the position you take.

I would also agree that it might be easy for people outside of this comunity (sorry Beery) to have a disk with mods.

But you have to realise a few things.
1. X 1 started with loads of mods that were taken without permission and/or credits from creative people who wanted to do this community a favour.
2. Somebody clearly acting as a 'representative' or 'front man' for X 1 behaved in an unworthy way on this forum (and the UBI forum).
3. This is a matter of principle and respect for our modders and many ithers in the subsim community.
4. Seemingly under pressure from this community Reggie McNeal states that there are no mods in the final release version used without permission.

I think you will agree that a 'theft' of the artistic and creative expressions of our mods was prevented by the vigerous reaction of the community, not by the decency of X 1.
We do not have to state our demands to X 1, like "please do not steal our modders work."
It's them who should apologise...

Since this is a matter of principle and respect numbers of DL's or the size of X 1 are hardly relevant.

By the way: you said you sent them e-mails, if I remember well. Did you get any answers?

I want to have nothing to do with X 1 or its 'representatives' anymore... other than keep an eye on the release version.
I hope this whole matter will be forgotten and this thread can be closed in a week or so...

[Jace11]

I tell you I wouldn't to see Wulfy on a jury. Seems despite evidence and argument, he looks the other way..

[Stormbringer]

I've been away from the board for a bit and come back to this...man!

Reading all of the responses and the reactions on both sides, I'll have to say that I can't support X1, even with their "removal" of other people's products. That they thought to do so without permission in the first place, is enough to motivate me to ignore all of their products - as it shows a temperment of mind I don't care for.

So many people have devoted effort to mods for this game that are outstanding in quality and amazing in dedication. I would find it offensive to support a company financially, which attempts to ride on the shoulders of others who give only for their passion for the game.

[Godalmighty83]

so x1 are going to romove the mods that they dont have permission for are they?

so how much info is going to be on the disc? 5kb?

the fact of the matter is the bulk of the mods used were simply ripped of a download page and stuck on a disc with almost no effort to contact and modders for permission.

x1 still claim that only 2 modders werent contacted despite 11 mods being used without permission.

[Beery]

so x1 are going to romove the mods that they dont have permission for are they? ...

The biggest problem now seems to be that X1 appears to be going ahead with their plan to publish 'for profit' what people gave them permission to use 'only as long as it was published as freeware'. X1 is claiming that they have permission to sell these mods, but they do not.

[Wulfmann]

You do realize UBI is going to include the improvements in future work, right.
Will you promise to make the same stance and call them thieves, UBI=Thieves. Or, will you be a hypocrite and only pick on the little companies

I am not saying those affected should not hold a grudge. As a travel writer I would often joke; "Trust me, I'm a white man". Why, because any person of color needs proof of my intent. (One native Alaskan didn’t get the joke and screamed “No no, that was when all the trouble started!!!”)
X-1 by its actions must act the same. It must earn people’s trust by its future actions
But, IMO you are saying there is no action that can be satisfactory. I have not heard concrete resolution suggestions just flaming.
I do not lame you on this. I just believe you have no realistic end demand
You don't want them to included mods they have permission to use in a CD that would be beneficial to those that buy it. You are either being selfish or insisting people be on your level or should not have the benefit of these improvements in spite of the fact they can be added to the product and not pay anymore than what they already are paying.

I offered to help UBI regarding historical accuracy. They ignored me. They have a serious amount of blatantly wrong things regarding this but even for free would not be bothered to correct them. Real U-boat has also expressed no interest in these historical corrections.
It is amusing you feel you are protecting the non modders by insisting they, in effect not improve their SH3 unless they join in learning to do something they want no part of. You have decided these majority (Prove me wrong with actual numbers) of simmers must do as you or not get these mods, that because of permission, they can get.

Then as I stand in the middle (I will do a 180 and take the same stance with X-1 as I feel I am being helpful to the modders by allowing them to consider a different point of view) and when I don’t tow the party line am accused of getting personal benefit over standing with the party. Those cheap shots expose the weakness of your position and mean you either have not read my position or are calling me a liar. You must now make a statement to me. Are you ignorant or am I in your opinion a liar. It is one or the other (Note; ignorance is a lack of knowledge something I admit to everyday and certainly anytime I ask for someone’s help here)

Let me remind all here. UBI’s SH3 has two sticky post at the top of their forum dedicated to the X-1 add-on.
No one dares comment on that.
Why? Are you getting free DVDs??? LOL

Wulfmann

[CCIP]

You do realize UBI is going to include the improvements in future work, right.
Will you promise to make the same stance and call them thieves, UBI=Thieves. Or, will you be a hypocrite and only pick on the little companies

But you do realize that Ubi has originally created the game, and they have access to the source code and can give much more extensive proprietary improvements than X1.

X1, on the other hand, took no part in SHIII's development at any point, nor is there any assurance that whatever money goes to them goes towards supporting SHIII. If anything, it's the opposite. :hmm:

[Abraham]

I really don't know who the "you" is you're addressing in your posting.
Not me, I guess, but who? Beery? Nico71? Jace11? Or the whole community?

Again, nobody has to demand anything from X 1. X 1 acted in an unethical way to say the least, and for many of us that was it, For others it was OSSI's or Deathping's behaviour on this forum.
Any change of mind of X 1 - if it really materialises - is only brought on by pressure from the communityYou do realize UBI is going to include the improvements in future work, right.
Will you promise to make the same stance and call them thieves, UBI=Thieves. Or, will you be a hypocrite and only pick on the little companiesIf Ubisoft would act like X 1 I would be mad as hell at them. But I bet they would never do that and their position is different. They value the community more than many of us realise!
Don't worry, for me it's the principle and respect that counts, not the size of the perpetrator...

[jasonb885]

X1 is obviously a very small operation.

There will be no courts involved in this.

Seriously, guys, give it a rest already.

Or is someone here going to step up and retain a lawyer? No? Moving on...

I think you're missing the point. If X1 includes freeware mods, and if they include a copyright notice in their Seewolfe product, that very notice, whether or not it has legal standing, will dissuade modmakers from using freeware mods that they should have every right to use. This is not a case of us needing lawyers. It's a matter of stopping X1 from claiming copyright on material that isn't theirs to claim copyright on.

How would you stop them? Foul language?

The most effective attack is to post the full details of these lunatics, including the full quote attributions which we have of these individuals. (OSSI's porn link in the forum, if it hasn't been deleted, ought to be plenty even.) It ought to plainly demonstrate how two-faced X1 is.

[jasonb885]

...
I am not saying those affected should not hold a grudge. As a travel writer I would often joke; "Trust me, I'm a white man". Why, because any person of color needs proof of my intent. (One native Alaskan didn’t get the joke and screamed “No no, that was when all the trouble started!!!”)
X-1 by its actions must act the same. It must earn people’s trust by its future actions
But, IMO you are saying there is no action that can be satisfactory.


Quick buck scamsters should be given no quarter.

Period.

Seriously, troll someplace else.

...I offered to help UBI regarding historical accuracy. They ignored me. They have a serious amount of blatantly wrong things regarding this but even for free would not be bothered to correct them. Real U-boat has also expressed no interest in these historical corrections.
It is amusing you feel you are protecting the non modders by insisting they, in effect not improve their SH3 unless they join in learning to do something they want no part of. You have decided these majority (Prove me wrong with actual numbers) of simmers must do as you or not get these mods, that because of permission, they can get.


Yawn. You always find a way to bring that nonsense up. Take that to the modders forum.

[Oldgold]

After reading twelve pages of posts on this I can only say this. In the 20 GB of mods I have on my backup hard drive, most of them have a little read me file that says " You don't have permission to sell this mod without the authors consent. If you use my mod in yours give me credit for it." People that don't understand this are crapping on the whole moddling community.

[Beery]

You do realize UBI is going to include the improvements in future work, right.
Will you promise to make the same stance and call them thieves, UBI=Thieves. Or, will you be a hypocrite and only pick on the little companies

It is Ubisoft's product. They own the copyright on it, so they have the right to make improvements, and they would certainly have the mod community's support if they decided to use a mod that we made. Anyway, this is not a question of a bunch of people trying to take down a poor, innocent 'mom and pop' business. This is a situation where a 'mom and pop' business has unscrupulously tried to sell freeware mods for a profit, without the authors' permission. I don't see how you can claim 'the middle ground' when you are failing to see how X1 has certainly done wrong already. X1 even admits this. Taking their side when they admit they did wrong is not 'taking the middle ground'. It is very far from the middle ground.

[Abraham]

Wulfmann is not "taking their side", Beery, but constantly demanding our understanding for X 1 while stating he's a neutral.
I remember he once (probably a few hour's ago) wrote that he loves to discuss with his friends, so I take it we all are his friends and he's just provoking us and having a good time doing it.
:D
Or he is a shrewd trial lawyer, keeping us off balance...
;)
And we are taking all this, hook, line and sinker, so to speak.
:rotfl:
The discussion is hardly serious anymore and is getting quite harmless...

[Beery]

This is not a case of us needing lawyers. It's a matter of stopping X1 from claiming copyright on material that isn't theirs to claim copyright on.

How would you stop them? Foul language?...

You stop them by getting Ubisoft on the side of the SH3 community.

These forum posts are not going to be here for long, and we're all eventually going to move on to other things, but there will be mod-makers who will have no knowledge of this issue, and all they will see will be Ail's mods, and CCIP's mods, Irishred's mods, and perhaps my mods, and stuff that was made possible thanks to Timetraveller, and other freeware mods in the Seewolfe add-on, all covered by X1's copyright notice. You and I won't be there to say "Hey guys, it's no problem, you can use most of the Seewolfe stuff in your own mods because they don't own the copyright on that stuff". There will be nothing except X1's blanket copyright notice, no one will know the facts about it, and it won't matter that X1's copyright notice is bull$hit.

The only people who have any chance of stopping the X1 guys are working at Ubisoft.

[Reggie McNeal]

" X1 is claiming that they have permission to sell these mods, but they do not."

Huh? We have permission to use every mod included.. which there are a grand total of seven. The rest of the content is proprietary.

In two of those cases.. Contact Map Mod and Radiolog, we are using only limited versions. If users want the full deal, they can find it here.

It would have been a better product with more mods, which would have given better visibility to the great simulation that SH3 is.. but its our fault for not observing protocol.

The last thing anyone would want to see is mods become political copyright footballs, limiting the growth of the community and the hobby we all enjoy. Ok, flame away.

[Beery]

" X1 is claiming that they have permission to sell these mods, but they do not."

Huh? We have permission to use every mod included.. which there are a grand total of seven. The rest of the content is proprietary.

It would have been a better product with more mods, which would have given better visibility to the great simulation that SH3 is.. but its our fault for not observing protocol.

As I understand it, some of the authors of these mods only gave permission to use them in a freeware add-on. That is not the same as getting a blanket 'permission for all use'. In these cases, you do not have permission to put those mods in Seewolfe. In fact you are specifically denied permission for such use.

[Elder-Pirate]

@Wulfmann,

If, and I do mean a big IF X1 somehow received all the luck in the world and legally started selling these mod disc WOULD you personally buy one ???????

[terrapin]

The address of the German UBI PR guy, Mr. Karsten Lehmann is

KLehmann@ubisoft.de

Knowing some details I learned to know today from a so-called '3rd party informant', confirmed later by someone important (I'd like to tell you more but I really cannot speak en detail about it at this point of time) I'd like to state again that 'seewolves' will be history soon.

But this shouldn't make us stop shouting out and writing to Ubi, explaining things. The bottom line seems very clear to me: Each sold copy of 'seewolves' damages directly Ubi's future sales. The decision makers in France are watching sales numbers closely, and if they are aware what a commercial success of X1's could mean, we've won.


Ah...Reggie...nah, I'd like to call you Mister Len Hjalmarson: I could easily publish things you've done in the last, let's say, 6 years....do you really want to force me to do that by NOT refraining from posting BS?

Thanks for your understanding!

[Reggie McNeal]

Ok, I tried to communicate here. Obviously you guys want to believe what you want to believe. Bye bye.

[terrapin]

Ok, I tried to communicate here. Obviously you guys want to believe what you want to believe. Bye bye.

Thank you!

[Abraham]

Ah...Reggie...nah, I'd like to call you Mister Len Hjalmarson: I could easily publish things you've done in the last, let's say, 6 years....do you really want to force me to do that by NOT refraining from posting BS?
Thanks for your understanding!
You should not say that, terrapin.
He is Reggie McNeal on this forum, untill he reveales his real name. Those are the rules of behaviour.
And don't threaten somebody to publish something, unless..
I understand your anger, but there are better ways to deal with it than this kind of personal attack or threat against a member of this forum who has said nothing wrong here... I guess.
Don't get carried away.

[terrapin]

Ah...Reggie...nah, I'd like to call you Mister Len Hjalmarson: I could easily publish things you've done in the last, let's say, 6 years....do you really want to force me to do that by NOT refraining from posting BS?
Thanks for your understanding!
You should not say that, terrapin.
He is Reggie McNeal on this forum, untill he reveales his real name. Those are the rules of behaviour.
And don't threaten somebody to publish something, unless..
I understand your anger, but there are better ways to deal with it than this kind of personal attack or threat against a member of this forum who has said nothing wrong here... I guess.
Don't get carried away.

No way I'm carried away...the post you're referring to had the desired effect. :) IF Mr. H wouldn't be afraid of some things seeing tthe sunlight, he would not have reacted the way he has.

btw. My name is Martin P. Gerner, nice to meet you - I enjoyed reading your posts so far! (no irony here!)

[XabbaRus]

" X1 is claiming that they have permission to sell these mods, but they do not."

Huh? We have permission to use every mod included.. which there are a grand total of seven. The rest of the content is proprietary.

In two of those cases.. Contact Map Mod and Radiolog, we are using only limited versions. If users want the full deal, they can find it here.

It would have been a better product with more mods, which would have given better visibility to the great simulation that SH3 is.. but its our fault for not observing protocol.

The last thing anyone would want to see is mods become political copyright footballs, limiting the growth of the community and the hobby we all enjoy. Ok, flame away.

So the modders who have agreed to let you put their mod on the Seewolves disc which you are selling, are they going to receive any of the profit?

I am guessing here but most modders I have met don't make them for money.

Ho hum...what a cluster****.

[Zepheron]

Ok, I tried to communicate here. Obviously you guys want to believe what you want to believe. Bye bye.

Too little too late. You should have tried communicating in the form of asking permission for the use of mods first. But you didn't. Good bye.

[Nico71]

Ok, I tried to communicate here. Obviously you guys want to believe what you want to believe. Bye bye.

*sniff* Farewell!

[Shadow9216]

Hi folks, just thought I'd jump in with one more teeny suggestion.

Boycotting X1's product won't work. Per their initial comments, their belief is that the online community represents only 20% of potential sales. Their market is the 80% not on these fora. They can afford to lose this 20%- perhaps they can afford to lose 50% of sales; they put little to no money into creating the add-on, and disks are relatively inexpensive. They can still sell enough to make it a worthwhile venture.

The place to hit them is at the distribution level. I asked earlier who the US distributor is. Let's expand that, who are their worldwide distributors- find that and we have the key. I can't think of any reputable company that would willingly market a product which could ensnare them in a lawsuit- even if it's just the threat of one.

A simple letter to these distributors, explaining the origin of this add-on, the controversy, and the fact that legal action has been threatened (OSSI did threaten a lawsuit after all ;) ), and politely request them to not market this product. Who would be willing to risk negative publicity AND the possibility of being named a co-defendant for some two-bit software company of dubious moral character?

Forget X1, even if you stop them some reincarnation will spring up, smarter than before. Instead cut them off from revenue and send THAT example to the would-be OSSIs out there, silently monitoring these developments.

@Abraham- I like your copywrong of my registration of Beery's theftware. Maybe Beery will co-opt it for the next RUb. How 'bout it, Beery?

:lol:

[terrapin]

Ok, I tried to communicate here. Obviously you guys want to believe what you want to believe. Bye bye.


I forgot: Please send greetings to your 'brother in law' if you meet him someday at his place!

[Beery]

Ok, I tried to communicate here. Obviously you guys want to believe what you want to believe. Bye bye.

Perhaps if you had started out by selling only YOUR OWN work, rather than trying to make more money by including someone else's work, we would be wishing you best success and good luck right now, rather than wishing you good riddance.

[terrapin]

Hi folks, just thought I'd jump in with one more teeny suggestion.

Boycotting X1's product won't work. Per their initial comments, their belief is that the online community represents only 20% of potential sales. Their market is the 80% not on these fora. They can afford to lose this 20%- perhaps they can afford to lose 50% of sales; they put little to no money into creating the add-on, and disks are relatively inexpensive. They can still sell enough to make it a worthwhile venture.

The place to hit them is at the distribution level. I asked earlier who the US distributor is. Let's expand that, who are their worldwide distributors- find that and we have the key. I can't think of any reputable company that would willingly market a product which could ensnare them in a lawsuit- even if it's just the threat of one.

A simple letter to these distributors, explaining the origin of this add-on, the controversy, and the fact that legal action has been threatened (OSSI did threaten a lawsuit after all ;) ), and politely request them to not market this product. Who would be willing to risk negative publicity AND the possibility of being named a co-defendant for some two-bit software company of dubious moral character?

Forget X1, even if you stop them some reincarnation will spring up, smarter than before. Instead cut them off from revenue and send THAT example to the would-be OSSIs out there, silently monitoring these developments.

@Abraham- I like your copywrong of my registration of Beery's theftware. Maybe Beery will co-opt it for the next RUb. How 'bout it, Beery?

:lol:

Matrixgames in the US. Contact already established. BUT: Let UBI know the story. They'll care..most likely sooner than later.

[Beery]

...A simple letter to these distributors, explaining the origin of this add-on, the controversy, and the fact that legal action has been threatened (OSSI did threaten a lawsuit after all ;) ), and politely request them to not market this product. ...

I did that this morning. The word was that the US distributor was to be Matrix Games, so they got an email from me about this issue. They can be contacted at support@matrixgames.com

@Abraham- I like your copywrong of my registration of Beery's theftware. Maybe Beery will co-opt it for the next RUb. How 'bout it, Beery?

If it makes the game more realistic, it's in! :up:

[StdDev]

No way I'm carried away...the post you're referring to had the desired effect. :) IF Mr. H wouldn't be afraid of some things seeing tthe sunlight, he would not have reacted the way he has.

btw. My name is Martin P. Gerner, nice to meet you - I enjoyed reading your posts so far! (no irony here!)

Terrapin.. I know in my heart that you are correct on this... BUT...
Reggie McNeil's post must be taken at face value.. that X1 (http://204.115.170.104/mp3/hanging_song.au)is admitting improper methods when this project was first started and that they are willing to make it right and have received permission from the various modders who's work will be distributed on their (X1's) intended product.
You may know in your heart that something is still "fishy" about the deal.. but I suggest that these "anomalies" be uncovered through discourse rather than make attacks against Reggie.. only because it makes you look a bit intolerant.. and as I said.. I know you are correct in this.

From all I have been reading (until Reggie McNeils post), X1 as an entity just oozes that internet punk/scum/scam artist feeling.. and I would watch them with a very close eye.
If they are willing to make right what was obviously wrong more power to them! .. but they are gunna be watched most carefully.. so dont f%ck it up X1!

Now... my next question is:
I am originally from the "other" site.. you know.. Neals other board that is populated by dedicated and professional weirdos (yes..like Drebbel!).
We managed to scrape up enough cash to hire a programmer to make some serious changes to SHII (after Neal managed to get the source code for the program). Part of the stipulation from UBI was that we could not sell the "patch"... how is it that UBI is allowing the sale of Stealwolf using their registered name (SHIII) aside from all the other arguements about ownership of the mods? this seems kinda inconsistant to me.

[GT182]

Don't go away mad Reggie, just go away..... and take OSSI/Deathpig and X1 with you. :yep:

I will stand in any store here near me with Seewolves on the shelf and let those looking to buy it know what is going on, and why it's wrong for it to be for sale.

Free is free and free for sale is wrong, in anyone's book. :down:

[terrapin]

...how is it that UBI is allowing the sale of Stealwolf using their registered name (SHIII) aside from all the other arguements about ownership of the mods? this seems kinda inconsistant to me.


Good question....I can only speculate, but from all I know I'm assuming that the decision to allow Seescam was not made at the highest level of the UBI crporation...

[slow_n_ez]

happen to stumble across this ........

http://www.strangereports.com/policewarrantsv.php?fname=x1software&lname=x1software&city=x1software


:rotfl:

[Shadow9216]

Beery, Terrapin, as always you guys are on target. I asked for info on X1's distributor, I received it. Wonder what else I can ask for? Well, I would like some pics of the Juliet up there in RI...

Gentlemen, and The Avon Lady, the gauntlet is now thrown. For all of you who fly the "boycott X1" banners, I challenge you to notify their distributor at the address you have been supplied with; I will be doing the same, and will voice my concerns to UBI as you have recommended Beery.

As I will be laying out my grievance in my customarily thorough fashion :yep: , you can be assured it will be a lengthy letter :zzz: .

As my digital friend and sparring partner Wulfmann would say "put up or shut up" :lol:

"Once more unto the breach...or seal up the wall with our English dead!"

[KodiakPA]

I sent a letter to PC Gamer Magazine about the whole situation.

[Wulfmann]

Well well well. If I were leading this cross burning I would not have scarred away the victim so quickly. I would have engaged him, let him get comfortable, let him explain, say too much. If I was sure he was as I said.

If I was not sure I would have thrown him out as fast, well as fast as you did!!!

Troll??? Et to Jason? That is something you will feel bad about later. Anyone else want to throw a few insults. It is not that troublesome. Call me a thief too? No problem because I know the absolute truth about me and my biggest fault is believing I should speak what I believe is true and fair particularly when it involves such destructive forces to a , until now, very fun experience. Leonard is gone so you need someone and I will be here for your satisfaction

Glad I am not on the jury???? I bet you would want me there if you were on trial and the execution was to take place before the deliberation.

Say, does anyone here know anything about the U-Boat war ????? Does anyone know anything about the escort training? How was that handled? How did the CO act towards the people he was to train? Why was he so willing to allow himself to be such a jerk to them? Did they feel the same way later?

You don’t seem to get it. I am on your side by trying to play God’s advocate (In this case not the devil’s advocate because you all would be screaming crucify him and give us Barabas)

I find it almost funny sometime ago that I suggested adding clauses to downloads to protect the authors from past experience and was ignored. Figured you must know this community better than me. Guess neither of us was right about this community.

Name the person on any forum that has more vocally defended all from the bigot Deathping. Please, anyone. Come on now too politically correct to stand up and say the right thing pansies. Name that person. Cat cut your tongue?

I have never disagreed with the premise here, never. But, seeing on how many of you want to rename this sim Graf Spee at Montevideo, I was hoping a way could be found that would compromise a situation that would satisfy the rights of the modders and encourage the mod challenge at the same time and lay the ground rules for future like possibilities. Guess that is just to boring. Flame wars are much more exciting.

Well trying to offer a different view to allow you too better justify your actions was not in my personal interest. Thought it was in yours. It usually is just not at a cross burning. Light the match

Wulfmann

PS, No, I would not buy any mod. I have spent 3 years full time making them and giving them away. I would have even given them to X-1 or UBI if they wanted them. Just don’t see it as a big deal but I guess I am not at the level of you guys and maybe my stuff is not as worthy. Through a little more kindling on now!!! I am getting cold!

[Shadow9216]

Wulfmann, you are correct.
"Let it be written- are you writing this?" (Coneheads) :P

Seriously though, when Deathpong (intentional misspelling) reared his ugly head, Wulfmann was one of the first and most vociferous in playing a digitally proverbial game of "Whack-a-mole" with it. His opinions may be contrary and some of his arguments may be unpalatable to a lot of people, but he has not shown himself to be an agent of X1, best friends with OSSI, working for "The MAN", or creating crop circles.

I'd like to stand up on his behalf. He is one of "us". Like his points of view or dislike them, but let us not behave ill towards him; remember, I also urged him to cease his rhetoric about Nazis and the KKK. Fair is fair.

Lest I come across as the forum nag, or annoy anyone by seeming like I have rights to limit what people say, I offer this defense- I aim for fairness and equality. My job deals with Justice, and equal treatment under the law is more than just an abstract concept. I guess it spills over into here sometimes. You all (with one or two exceptions *cough*ossianddeathping*cough*) have my utmost respect, and in many cases admiration.

[Dagger U-539]

My biggest concern is that they lied before what makes them different now?Oh they can say they aren't using the mods and they have their own sky mod(why do I feel this is going ot look EXACTLY the same)and will only use mods they have permisison to use.I have been talking to every store and small shop I can to get them NOT to stock this.I not sure if maybe ALL thier past releases haven't been stolen work.makes you wonder...

[Onkel Neal]

" X1 is claiming that they have permission to sell these mods, but they do not."

Huh? We have permission to use every mod included.. which there are a grand total of seven. The rest of the content is proprietary.



From what I have been told by some of these modders, you have been asking them for permission just a day or two ago. Which means you didn't have permission going in, nor did you consider it important.


In two of those cases.. Contact Map Mod and Radiolog, we are using only limited versions. If users want the full deal, they can find it here.

Yes, but are you pressing them for the full version?

[Gunfighter34]

I know I'm relatively new here but it seems to me that this could be resolved fairly quickly and easily given a little initiative and goodwill from both sides.

Reggie claims that there are 7 mods in his add-on and that he's got permission from all the creators. If this is the case, why not have someone from X-1 come on this thread and in a respectful, classy manner (yeah, that might be a stretch, I know) and list the mods and maybe copies or links to copies of the permissions they have received from the respective creators.

Maybe someone from X-1 could even man up and apologize, because even if it was an inadvertent mistake, and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here, they still screwed the pooch.

THEN, someone from the anti-X-1 side (and I'm ambivalent, but the case against X-1 seems pretty strong) can contact these modders for confirmation that X-1 has, indeed, received their permission to use their mods in a commercial add-on.

EVEN IF X-1 did this belatedly, this would at least show that they are attempting to remove their heads from their fourth points of contact and rectify the situation somewhat. At THAT point, maybe the anti-X-1 crowd can consider it water under the bridge and drive on.

Maybe then we can go back to talking about torpedoing merchies rather than each other.

[Beery]

THEN, someone from the anti-X-1 side (and I'm ambivalent, but the case against X-1 seems pretty strong) can contact these modders for confirmation that X-1 has, indeed, received their permission to use their mods in a commercial add-on...

If X1 provide the data regarding the seven permissions, I'll be glad to contact all the mod-makers involved and report back with their responses. If everything is above board, I'll certainly be happy to report that.

However, I know for sure that at least one of those seven people has not given permission for his mod to be used. Without getting into specifics, I know because he told me directly this very morning.

[Wulfmann]

Gunfighter. Sorry to inform you they have already removed the mods that they do not have permision. They have tried to explain while the mob was crying for blood. And, IMO, X-1 should have been forthright quicker, but in the franzy going on here they were all but thrown out, read the last couple pages. Anyone that did not tow the mob mentality has been been demeaned, read the post.
In fairness the modders, again, IMO had every right to be upset. But, when X-1 bowed to the pressure, as they should have, then that was not good enough either as now they were only doing it because they were forced to. In the end there was no way to stop the angry mob.
The mob wanted blood, they wanted to burn down Castle Frankenstein. Only problem was when they went to light the fire they neglected to see everyone was covered in gasoline. Every one that loves SH3
The effect is all are too blame, all!!!!, including me, no one is right, and no one has or will benefit. Whether a fist fight, a gun fight or a flame fight, everyone loses.

Write that down!

Are you writing?

Wulfmann

[Beery]

But, when X-1 bowed to the pressure, as they should have, then that was not good enough either as now they were only doing it because they were forced to. In the end there was no way to stop the angry mob.

Unfortunately, your characterization of X1 bowing to the pressure is not wholly accurate. I know of at least one of the mod-makers involved whose efforts to stop X1 using a mod he has not authorized were still being ignored as of 2 O'clock this morning. If X1 had completely backed off from their intention to use non-authorized mods, then you would have a point, but as far as I'm aware that still isn't the case. Sure, they say they aren't using non-authorized mods, but the reality of the situation is that they get permission for one thing, and then they push well beyond the edge of the envelope. Perhaps you should ask the mod-makers directly. You will soon learn that there's a big gap between what the X1 guys say they are doing and what they are actually doing.

[jasonb885]

But, when X-1 bowed to the pressure, as they should have, then that was not good enough either as now they were only doing it because they were forced to. In the end there was no way to stop the angry mob.

Unfortunately, your characterization of X1 bowing to the pressure is not wholly accurate. I know of at least one of the mod-makers involved whose efforts to stop X1 using a mod he has not authorized were still being ignored as of 2 O'clock this morning. If X1 had completely backed off from their intention to use non-authorized mods, then you would have a point, but as far as I'm aware that still isn't the case. Sure, they say they aren't using non-authorized mods, but the reality of the situation is that they get permission for one thing, and then they push well beyond the edge of the envelope. Perhaps you should ask the mod-makers directly. You will soon learn that there's a big gap between what X1 says they are doing and what they are actually doing.

I, for one, look forward to full disclosure.

I think I will be making one of my own, soon.

:up:

[Wulfmann]

There certainly seems to be a disagreement over the mod they said they co developed and should be able to use ITO. I do not know who is right on that issue
But, while I agree modders needed to take satisfactory action, that should be measured to correct the problem, not cause the uproar that, IMO if is the cure it is worse than the disease.
Not only that, but the way X-1 was portrayed and continues to be is not at all consistent with their willingness to comply with the request. Particularly while under the barrage that has be leveled.
Let me guess, they are only doing that to regain credibility so they can dub the innocent potential buyers to throw down their hard earned cash and get mods they could easily spend a few weeks trying to figure out and learn to install.
X-1 made errors but there are two ways to look at this and I see both and both have faults.
The SH3 community has been hurt more by the reaction than the action.
The only people that don't see that have their eyes closed.
Wulfmann

[Abraham]

... Anyone else want to throw a few insults...
You don’t seem to get it. I am on your side by trying to play God’s advocate (In this case not the devil’s advocate because you all would be screaming crucify him and give us Barabas)...
Well trying to offer a different view to allow you too better justify your actions was not in my personal interest. Thought it was in yours...
Wulfmann
I gotcha, didn't I?
Wulfmann is not "taking their side", Beery, but constantly demanding our understanding for X 1 while stating he's a neutral.
I remember he once (probably a few hour's ago) wrote that he loves to discuss with his friends, so I take it we all are his friends and he's just provoking us and having a good time doing it.
:D
Or he is a shrewd trial lawyer, keeping us off balance...
;)
And we are taking all this, hook, line and sinker, so to speak.
:rotfl:
The discussion is hardly serious anymore and is getting quite harmless...

@ Shadow9216: Keep me informed of your letter. I am not proficient enough in this field of the law to produce something convincing myself, I'm serious! So I'll grab your text, change a few lines and throw it at their distributor (c.c. Ubisoft!!). And I won't credit you for your text of course...
:rotfl:
About "the copywrong on the theftware"... Why ask Beery? I don't see were Beery fits in. He's just the inventor. We're talking about a new legal standard here...
(sorry Beery!)
:rotfl:
@ Terrapin: Thanks Martin for your kind words about my postings. I'll send you a p.m. one of these days, properly introducing myself.
I could never take your words for sarcasm in this thread. Not at this forum.
If you would meet me at the General Topic Forum you might say some bad words about my postings and I probably would take them as sarcasm...
:lol:
@ X 1: I keep my eyes on you!
:shifty:
@ All: Please refrain from personal attacks and flaming against any golfhole you might encounter. Nothing feels better for a perpetrator then being able to pretend to be victimized. Don't give them the chance. Club away at the balls, not at the holes...
:D

[jasonb885]

Wonders never cease. The situation has been evolving quickly since a July 19th post (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=40446) on Subsim (http://subsim.com/)'s Silent Hunter III forum (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=23) regarding X1 Software (http://www.webdesign-roessler.de/KUNDEN2/x1/index.php?view=news&lg=e)'s payware mod, SeaWolves.

RealSimulation.com received a press release (http://mpgtext.net/u-boot/content/view/234/2/) on the 19th for X1 Software's upcoming payware mod, Seawolves.

After some discussion with Ubisoft, RealSimulation.com learns Ubisoft is both aware of X1 Software's Seawolves unofficial, payware mod for Silent Hunter III, and has found no legal troubles (http://mpgtext.net/u-boot/content/view/236/2/) with its sale.

On the 19th and 20th much discussion ensued about SeaWolves on Subsim's SH3 forum. The initial reaction is one of wonder and boredom. There is speculation as to whether any new models or improves were included in SeaWolves that might signal Ubisoft had provided X1 Software with access to a SDK for SH3. However, the situation rapidly devolved with cries of a scam. But as of the 20th there was not yet any proof. Surely X1 Software's intentions of providing the community with a quality payware mod were true?

On the 20th of July, a poster by the name of OSSI claimed proudly:


I WILL BUY IT!!!!


Why highlight that particular comment, out of a thread of hundreds of posts? Bear with me as the timeline continues.

From the screenshots, various modders comment on seeing familiar things. Some of X1's screenshots appear to be very similar to Ubisoft material, though no direct evidence is linked. Other modders find strange similiarities, including what looks like WorldMod and the MilkCow resupply mod.

To assure the community all is well with SeaWolves, X1 Software's owner Steffen Trombke explained in an email to Realsimulation.com on July 20th in a preemptive strike to avert any claims of impropriety:


Rest assured we didn't steal any mod - we have permission from everyone. The biggest part [of Seawolves] is proprietary development. One could say the included mods are an extra. It would be a shame if the buyers wouldn't be able to get a hold of these mods just because they can't download them. Also Ubi is aware of our add-on and gave us permission to publish it under certain conditions. Let me add that the [online] community is only about 20 percent of all buyers of SH3. We are sorry about this fact


Later, at 14:06 Eastern Time, it's discovered that OSSI, quoted above, is acting as an official representative of X1 Software (http://forums-de.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/469102863/m/8191017933) on the Ubisoft German forums.

Meanwhile Trombke explained in a private email to terrapin:


I'm sorry but we're not giving out any information about the included mods at this point of time...don't be angry


Beery was contacted by private email on the 20th and Trombke explained:


we have not use any mods of you Berry!


Further, Trombke claimed on the 21st in a press release (http://mpgtext.net/u-boot/content/view/242/2/) to realsimulation.com:


The SeaWolves Expansion uses a few of the available mods, by permission of their authors wherever it was possible to identify them. The balance of the expansion was created new... including the complete revision of the campaign files and a complete set of Pacific missions


On the 23rd, screenshots of SeaWolves were posted on realsimulation.com from X1 Software. A thread spawned on Subsim and they were scrutinized intensely. Immediately several modders made claims that the recognized certain elements, like the Skymod and WorldMod.

OSSI, an X1 representative in some capacity, replies to the Subsim thread stating, simply:


WoW nice Pics, cant wait to have it!


He then claims, in response to allegations that SeaWolves is using an existing community harbor mod:


too complicated to install, no new habors in any mod and I have no DSL


So who is OSSI, anyway?

Through personal emails which I do not presently have permission to reproduce and Google searches, it's clear OSSI is actually the owner of X1 Software, the two faced Steffen Trombke.

From sturmovik.de (http://www.sturmovik.de/index.php3?open=tut_funk2_a):


Vielen Dank an Steffen "III/JG26 OSSI" Trombke (Trombke@t-online.de) für eine Liste der deutschen Abkürzungen und Schlüsselwörter und csThor für einzelne Begriffe.
Ausserdem habe ich auf den Artikel Luftwaffe Ground Attack Radio Terminology[ Link ] und einen Artikel im Landser unbekannten Jahrgangs zurückgegriffen.


So, then, we have an email address and not so coincidental alias OSSI. Now, the pieces fall neatly into place.

In one thread (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=40595), Trombke even posted porngraphic material in response to one individual. (Warning, the thread linked below still contains a reference to Trombke pornographic URL post.) A choice selection of quotes from X1 Software's owner, Steffen Trombke, has been plucked from the thread below. You'll notice he's cleaned up his posts, but fortunately others have quoted him directly, making it impossible for him to hide his lack of diplomacy. Obviously the alligations of mod theft on his part are making Trombke uncomfortable. (He has since edited his posts, so what is represented below is only the portions of his words that were quoted by other forum members.)


I WILL BUY IT!!!!



The problem is only that the mods are a small part of that add-on is and modscreater give a "YES" before X1 can use it. So be cool dump



WoW nice Pics, cant wait to have it!



too complicated to install, no new habors in any mod and I have no DSL


On the 25th, on Ubisoft's official forums, Steffen Trombke, posting under a new alias, deathping, demands the community apologize to the noble Trombke, who has been unfairly persecuted. While I have no immediate evidence that deathping is, in fact, Trombke, it seems logical that he is attempting to restore X1 Software's reputation, or at least his own.


Subsim and the 5 or so losers that inhabit that forum, and when they get bored, float over to this forum should be ashamed of themselves for besmirching a reputable company like X1 software and its developer Steffen Trombke.

I've purchased products overseas for il2 from Mr. Trombke and have had only the best service, the man is so fair, he even returned a few cents in change to me. 'Smile'

For some reason, you losers at subsim seem to think that because you modded some smoke and made it blacker or painted a skin, or stole some images from Das Boot, that you have some sort of ownership over those altered UBI and DAS BOOT files. Well you don't. 'Angry Blue Guy'

Furthermore, I don't even believe that you have seen a copy, this so called stolen copy that some of you rant of. I think you are out and out liars.

And Avon lady, what is with the israeli flag? I thought your people didn't like Germans, you know, because of that holocaust thing and all. Why are you here flaunting that flag? To stir the pot?


Additionally, on the 25th, deathping comments on the legal scenario:


Exactly right... You modders own nothing! What? you make a new explosion and you think you did something? Or clouds. YOU OWN NOTHING! I repeat... YOU OWN NOTHING and stop acting like you do own it. Oh and all you Das Boot Modders, who gave you permission to distribute their media likenesses free or not??


On the 26th he continues, but not to plead his case, but merely initiate personal attacks against members of Ubisoft's SH3 community.


What personal attack?

I find it curious that someone comes into a German simulator for Uboots waving an israeli flag!

As for the Christian being a reservist in the israeli military. Well Wulfmann, that's really kind've true isn't it? Very interesting that you would actually admit that.

Further, Christians are not any more above reproach than nonchristians or jews but that's a minor point in this matter.

Why don't you inhale some helium balloons or something and go hang out at subsim whilst making a blacker smoke or something.

But before you all go, why don't you all apologize to Steffen Trombke for YOUR insults.

Talentless losers of subsim, shame on you....


Later on the 26th, Trombke again insults people, followed by a plea to restore his honor under his assumed handle deathping.


Yes Guidon,
But the US military is constantly used on behalf of israel so really, you are the mercenary military for them. Iraq is just another form of that, even the british knew this in ww2.

As for the czech poster and english poster with regards to nationalities playing this game. israel and jews have played up their victimisation at the hands of Germans in spades compared to other peoples. So it begs the question I asked twice already, why play a German sub simulator? And attacking a German developer to boot is rather suspect to me.

To respond to the poster with regards to my willingness to pay for "free mods". I see no that these belong to anyone or that they are particulary unique in composition.

Therefore, I believe and apology is in order for a reputable businessman like Steffen Trombke.


And he writes on:


I have excellent manners unlike some who have spammed a forum with their banners of disrespect.

israel has always been in the works. And a people need not have a country to have a nation.

And yes, your navy and has operated as a mercenary military at the behest of, YOU GUESSED IT, for many years.

And where is this readme with all this great info an unreleased product? Oh yeah, you downloaded on the magic server.


You will notice, above, Trombke referers to a 'magic server'. We will discuss that, soon, but essentially Trombke failed to secure his server and left a copy of SeaWolf in an unprotected directory, which was subsequently downloaded. Later, fact based allegations against X1 Software are based partly on the findings within the unsecured download.

Much later on the 26th, someone with the handle pbashaw, who appears to be speaking unofficially for X1 Software, weighs in:


Who is this Deathping? He does not represent CombatPlanes or X1. I've done some work for CP on the expansion, primarily in testing. I talked to Leonard this morning and he says the optional mods have been removed, and they now have permission for all others included. They had to remove Serg's Type7 DD (he had ok'ed use in World Mod but took exception to commercial release). Here are the permissions they now have..

Soundmod by Incognito Soundworks with additional work by NDigital
Hi-res subs by Sean Gilleran
U-boat Interior by Ship Hunter
DD Fix by Jungman
Radiolog by Irishred
Resupply by SANSAL
Contact Mod by Fletcher

They added their own version of a skymod as well as new blackout views for periscope and UZO.

Oh.. and Nico's cities were removed, and his escorts deleted and replaced with new ones..


The individual by the name of Leonard, is actually Leonard Hjalmarson of Combatplanes.ca (http://combatplanes.ca/). We'll discuss Hjalmarson's own history shortly, but let us continue.

Now, speaking more officially, it seems, pbashaw explains on the 27th about the integration of the MilkCow mod into SeaWolves.


SANSAL's mod is really awesome. That mod alone has doubled my enjoyment of the game. It's a great gift to the community, and I'm really glad it will be available to a much wider audience. We integrated it into the expansion and it works great with what is essentially World Mod 5. Patrolling the Atlantic in 1942 is a whole new game.


Meanwhile, on Subsim on the 27th (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=40628), someone with the handle Reggie McNeal, supposedly speaking on authority as an agent of X1 Software, claims:


There are no mods in the release version that are used without permission.

Watch for an official notice in the next day or two...


The name Reggie McNeal will receive some careful scrutiny later, but for now just remember it's appearance here.

Later, Reggie McNeal explains:


Huh? We have permission to use every mod included.. which there are a grand total of seven. The rest of the content is proprietary.

In two of those cases.. Contact Map Mod and Radiolog, we are using only limited versions. If users want the full deal, they can find it here.

It would have been a better product with more mods, which would have given better visibility to the great simulation that SH3 is.. but its our fault for not observing protocol.

The last thing anyone would want to see is mods become political copyright footballs, limiting the growth of the community and the hobby we all enjoy. Ok, flame away.


Searching the Subsim forums, the person with the handle Reggie McNeal appears to have little clue (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=39713) how to actually play SH3. Interesting.


Subject: Reloading externals

I tried this today and I must have forgotten what is necessary.. Do I have to have an officer on deck? And should they be on the bridge or on the deck?

And.. if I have AUTO loading set and the weather is ok, will they transfer externals without my worrying about it when I am running onthe surface?


And now, we come to Leonard Hjalmarson (http://www.nextreformation.com/html/len.htm) (lenhjal@telus.net), the founder of CombatPlanes.ca (http://combatplanes.ca/). While there is a long community history of unscrupulous behavior, his involvement with SH3 seems to begin with X1 Software's SeaWolves payware modification.

Hjalmarson appears to go by a variety of aliases, including Maverick75, Leonard, Reggie McNeal, and Reg McNeal (Maverick77@telus.net).

He uses his alias, apparently the name of his favorite writer, Reggie McNeal, when astroturfing his own wares for Combatplanes.ca, as demonstrated in several (http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=011003) simhq.com threads (http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=011376).

Further information about the Combatplanes.ca domain confirms it is indeed owned by Leonard Hjalmarson:


jasonb@faith:~$ whois combatplanes.ca
Status: EXIST
Registrar: DomainPeople, Inc.
Registrar-no: 192
Registrant-no: 507044
Domaine-no: 507044
Subdomain: combatplanes.ca
Renewal-Date: 2005/10/14
Date-Approved: 2002/10/14
Date-Modified: 2004/09/11
Organization: Combat Planes
Description:
Admin-Name: Leonard Hjalmarson
Admin-Title: President
Admin-Postal: 849 McKenzie Rd,
Kelowna BC V1X2B4 Canada
Admin-Phone: 250 765 3596
Admin-Fax:
Admin-Mailbox: lenhjal@telus.net
Tech-Name: Leonard Hjalmarson
Tech-Title:
Tech-Postal: Combat Planes
320 Stetson St.
Kelowna BC V1X 5K4 Canada
Tech-Phone: 2507653596
Tech-Fax:
Tech-Mailbox: lenhjal@telus.net


How do we know Reg McNeal is actually an alias? Hjalmarson was careless in personal email sent to several modders in which he incorrectly signed his emails as "Lens" or sent mail from the wrong email address, exposing himself. Additionally, I find it pretty suspect that the real Reggie McNeal (http://www.christianbookpreviews.com/christian-book-author.php?isbn=0787965685), who writes books and lives in South Carolina, has time to astroturf online on behalf of Hjalmarson and Combatplanes.ca.

So who's pbashaw? Perhaps Hjalmarson himself. Here's an interesting thread on Ubisoft's Silent Hunter III - Community Creatives forum (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/frm/f/9091085392l), where he inquires (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/9091085392/m/9961049013) on how to properly work with SH3's event system.


Can anyone relate the procedure? I want to

1. create a zone (simple)
2. when the sub passes through the zone an EVENT is generated
3. the event causes a destroyer to spawn

For some reason it's not working..


What's the link between X1 Software and Combatplanes?

Apparently SeaWolves' Pacific campaign (http://www.combatplanes.ca/m_c.htm).

The most obvious link is within the aforementioned leaked release of SeaWolves. Although not necessarily the final build, the downloaded distribution of SeaWolves appears to be a nearly completed product ready to ship. Inside the base directory, you'll notice a Gato directory, obviously for the GATO class submarine mentioned at the Combatplanes.ca link above. Inside are some associated TGA graphics for the GATO class submarine reskin.


jasonb@faith:~/tmp/seewolves$ ls -1 seewolves/
Gato
Options
SeaWolves Uninstal.exe
data


That's the chronology of the X1 scam to date.

So, what have we learned thus far?

Leonard Hjalmarson is a professional scammer, albeit a rather pathetic, small time one. Steffen Trombke is a professional wannabe, baithing in his ineptitude.

We've discovered that some people will do just about anything to make a buck, from blatant astrotufing, to lying, scamming, and stealing other's work and customer's money.

Were I X1 Software's publisher, Matrixgames, I'd be having second thoughts about now.

In any event, I consider this case closed. Leonard Hjalmarson has been exposed as the principal scammer by his own ineptitude. Steffen Trombke has been exposed as a tool.

Congratulations to both of you.

Now get off my boat.

:smug:

[Beery]

Much later on the 26th, someone with the handle pbashaw, who appears to be speaking unofficially for X1 Software, weighs in:


Who is this Deathping? He does not represent CombatPlanes or X1. I've done some work for CP on the expansion, primarily in testing. I talked to Leonard this morning and he says the optional mods have been removed, and they now have permission for all others included. They had to remove Serg's Type7 DD (he had ok'ed use in World Mod but took exception to commercial release). Here are the permissions they now have..

Soundmod by Incognito Soundworks with additional work by NDigital
Hi-res subs by Sean Gilleran
U-boat Interior by Ship Hunter
DD Fix by Jungman
Radiolog by Irishred
Resupply by SANSAL
Contact Mod by Fletcher

They added their own version of a skymod as well as new blackout views for periscope and UZO.

Oh.. and Nico's cities were removed, and his escorts deleted and replaced with new ones..


I'd just like to add that I've been contacted by other people whose mods and/or adjustments are included in Seewolfe and who have yet to be contacted by X1 at all. Of course these people do not appear in the list of seven. I fear these seven mods are merely the tip of the iceberg, and represent mods that X1 has received some sort of permission to use. In my opinion, there is undoubtedly work that appears in the Seewolfe add-on whose authors X1 won't even acknowledge. Perhaps this work is part of what X1 calls 'proprietary'.

Also, Pbashaw's assertion that "the optional mods have been removed, and they now have permission for all others included" is bogus. He posted that on the 26th, yet on the 27th I received word from a modmaker - one of the seven that have supposedly given permission - that X1 was intending to use a mod of his that they were specifically NOT authorized to use. That is a day AFTER they made the statement that all the remaining mods were authorized. Now I don't believe my sources have any reason to lie about this stuff. The X1 folks, on the other hand, have already amassed a history of unscrupulous behaviour. Readers can believe what they want, but I know who I believe.

[Abraham]

@ jasonb885; What kind of sensors you got on your Typ VII C? AEGIS? FLIR? Towed Array?
:up:
Finally we got FACTS, FACTS, FACTS!
Anyway, this is maximum transparancy we got now. Seems I even missed a few of OSSI's/Deathping's more uglier postings.
Lesson for OSSI: if you want to work subsurface, pinging away could be your death.
:down:

[CCIP]

That post needs to be bookmarked by everyone now or something :|\
Better yet, hotlinked to those fancy boycott banners!

You know though, I could understand the X1 folks trying to make money the easy and not-very-nice way. What I don't understand is why they would also want to make fools of themselves, which, as Jason's post so eloquently demonstrates, they've done quite well and pretty well right out in public. :hmm:

[ReM]

jasonb885:
Wow, helluva job indeed......maybe you should change your alias in sherlockh885 or something.. ;)

What I do not understand is that UBI had problems with the adaptations made by Combatplanes, but seems to be OK with this so-called 'new' project.......

Anyway good thing that you exposed these guys for what they really are....
Especially this Trombke guy.....he is so small. :roll:
I don't think that there are many people here that would want to buy goods from such a person, even if he had actually made all mods himself.....

[The Avon Lady]

Bookmark these posts, too:

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/9021027043/r/7621028143#7621028143

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/9021027043/r/7681028143#7681028143

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/9021027043/r/6041058143#6041058143

And the coupe de grace:

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/9021027043/r/9221098143#9221098143

:nope:

[Salvadoreno]

wow exposed! jason you completely changed my mind. i will DEFINATELY not buy the addon. What a buncha scammers. But i really dont think deathping is Stefen "Scammer". And what an embarassment if he is, using Ad Homines for trying to prove his innocence. I mean that seems so juvenile and ridiculous to attack several members on the forum, and this guy is a developer and owner of X1 software? (which i never heard of, does it have any credibility?) Anyway great find Jason

[Catfish]

Hello,
that priest thing is really the icing on the cake ... OMG internet and new technology did not make mankind any brighter :roll:

I always wondered how "X1" came to use the Pacific mod done by "Combatplanes", it all becomes quite clear now. I wonder why X1 was allowed to sell this but Combatplanes was not ? UBI? Hello?

Greetings,
Catfish

[terrapin]

Much later on the 26th, someone with the handle pbashaw, who appears to be speaking unofficially for X1 Software, weighs in:


Who is this Deathping? He does not represent CombatPlanes or X1. I've done some work for CP on the expansion, primarily in testing. I talked to Leonard this morning and he says the optional mods have been removed, and they now have permission for all others included. They had to remove Serg's Type7 DD (he had ok'ed use in World Mod but took exception to commercial release). Here are the permissions they now have..

Soundmod by Incognito Soundworks with additional work by NDigital
Hi-res subs by Sean Gilleran
U-boat Interior by Ship Hunter
DD Fix by Jungman
Radiolog by Irishred
Resupply by SANSAL
Contact Mod by Fletcher

They added their own version of a skymod as well as new blackout views for periscope and UZO.

Oh.. and Nico's cities were removed, and his escorts deleted and replaced with new ones..


...In my opinion, there is undoubtedly work that appears in the Seewolfe add-on whose authors X1 won't even acknowledge. Perhaps this work is part of what X1 calls 'proprietary'.

... yet on the 27th I received word from a modmaker - one of the seven that have supposedly given permission - that X1 was intending to use a mod of his that they were specifically NOT authorized to use. That is a day AFTER they made the statement that all the remaining mods were authorized. Now I don't believe my sources have any reason to lie about this stuff. The X1 folks, on the other hand, have already amassed a history of unscrupulous behaviour. Readers can believe what they want, but I know who I believe.

I can confirm this, today's the 28th, now 0904 GMT

[retired1212]

Seems that modders need to rename readme.txt to something like Bigtitslinks.txt so that the thieves will read the copyright information :-j

May alien tripods take them away

[malkuth74]

Posted a story about this on my site. Might not help any, but never can tell. At least get word out a little more.

[Nico71]

Posted a story about this on my site. Might not help any, but never can tell. At least get word out a little more.

I don't want to start this debate again, but you are wrong with your statement that all mods belong to Ubi! In fact, this is plain b$!

[Hawkers]

Wow! Marvellous stuff!! :up:

Jasonb885 - you've just done us a great service by giving the whole story so far - a great post. If they ever turn this bizarre saga into a movie, are you gonna write the screenplay? :lol:

Avon Lady - top links. :up: I don't usually inhabit the UBI forums (wouldn't let me register and anyway, you never quite know who's who over there ;) ) but poor ol' Len (or is it Reg?) was well and truly taken to the cleaners :up:

Let's hope that this sad saga is finally drawing to a close. There maybe a denouement and an epilogue to follow. I'd be interested to know what Terrapin's whole take on this affair will be.

You, sir, have again dropped a significant hint, namely that "Seewolves will soon be history", but are unable to elaborate - which I fully understand. Maybe one day you will be able to reveal all.

I am relatively new to this forum and relatively new to this game (SH3 only hit the shelves here in Thailand about 2 months ago). I've been playing it non-stop since I bought it, and my enjoyment of it has been greatly enhanced by the wonderful work you modders have put into it. It reminds of the golden days of Red Baron 3D (yes, Beery - I still have the work you put into that game, too). And I enjoy very much this forum and this community, and the way most folks here conduct themselves. We may not always see eye to eye, but we do communicate and say what we think and reason it out. And that's why I like this community.

Long may it live :)

Hawkers :up:

[Abraham]

Cheers Hawkers, well said and welcome!

[XabbaRus]

Hmm I am waiting for the inevitable reply.

[ReM]

Hmm I am waiting for the inevitable reply.
I think the lack of a reply speaks for itself!

[daldrum]

Wow, just read the Seewolfe Scam Story' Continues on Realboatsimulation, what a sad story.

Just did not know wether those X1 guys were are extremely naive or extremely unscrupuluous. Well now, the choice is not so difficult. The second option comes as a clear winner.

[Shadow9216]

"If you're going to be mean, it helps to be smart"- Get Fuzzy.

Well done Jason, can I edit that and use it in my letter to the distro and UBI? Abraham, I'll give you a copy for you to steal at your leisure. Remember guys, "all your mods are now belong to us"

One good question which still hasn't been addressed- why was combatplanes shut down and not X1?

The single missions in seewolves are an extension of the original 3 missions supplied in WM2.0- in fact, those missions are still in there. So what has X1 done differently from UBI?

On an aside to any remaining X1 lurkers: guys, what's up with reusing the U-boats for the Pac? You couldn't make new US-style uniforms? And at least change some of the skins a little bit more. Put a little effort into it at least!

Hey, someone want to make a set of American uniforms for these guys? And Beery, maybe you can adapt SH3 Commander to generate good "American" names. Let's make their job easy, okay?
:rotfl:

[Abraham]

Well done Jason, can I edit that and use it in my letter to the distro and UBI? Abraham, I'll give you a copy for you to steal at your leisure. Remember guys, "all your mods are now belong to us"
I'm your man! (*cough*)

The line: "All your mods now belong to us" would be a good line for OSSI. Almost ad verbatim his position.

The X 1 policy line is:
"You make'm for free, we take'm for free!"

OSSI's personal justification:
"Don't think I do this for money. I'm a Commie, I work for the Community!"

An eloquent reaction from 'Reggie McNeal' to our remarks on this thread could be:
"You have no right to ask me how I feel, you have no right to speak to me so kind...
There was no way for us to compromise, so from now we'll go on living seperate lives!"(Phil Collins/Stephen Bishop c.1985).

Their 'sales department' will have a tough job selling something that is available for free on the web. Perhaps some of you can come up with some good lines. Don't let them down, they'll need it!
:lol:

[Beery]

It would be great if this whole saga appeared in the gaming press - a story of software piracy to rival Watergate. Jasonb885 is SH3's Woodward and Bernstein.

[Nico71]

It would be great if this whole saga appeared in the gaming press - a story of software piracy to rival Watergate. Jasonb885 is SH3's Woodward and Bernstein.

Won't happen! X1 banner ads are all over the place!

[Nico71]

Whoa! 600 posts both here and on SimHQ simultaneously! :o

[SteamWake]

It would be great if this whole saga appeared in the gaming press - a story of software piracy to rival Watergate. Jasonb885 is SH3's Woodward and Bernstein.

Won't happen! X1 banner ads are all over the place!

Oh trust me the popular media will pick this up. They love contraversy. Besides X1 is a small fish in the grand scheme of PC gaming.

[jasonb885]

"If you're going to be mean, it helps to be smart"- Get Fuzzy.

Well done Jason, can I edit that and use it in my letter to the distro and UBI? Abraham, I'll give you a copy for you to steal at your leisure. Remember guys, "all your mods are now belong to us"


Sure, have fun!


One good question which still hasn't been addressed- why was combatplanes shut down and not X1?


Yes, I wrestled with that one myself. I wish I had included Leonard's involvement in WM, since that was slapped down. But it was late and I wasn't really involved in the community when that took place. Ah well.

Always time for revisist history. ;)

[Shadow9216]

From Matrixgames own forum:
Since we have published previous X1 titles, we were indeed discussing this one as well. We are aware of these allegations and have been checking into them. We are verifying that everything contained in the SH3 expansion has written permission from the respective modders for its inclusion. It will have to be 100% in that respect for us to publish it.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development and Business Relations

And here's what one of the posters there had to say:
No need to look for proof.
Lol, those guys where even dumb enough to leave the orignal readmes in.

Sansai's Milk cow mod is in there
Serg's multiple DD skins and type 7 DD and additional merchant's
Beery's Flotilla mod.
JuJu's mil mods.
Nico71 mods.
Observer's mod.
Iambecomelife's smoke mod.

< Message edited by Grouchy -- 7/26/2005 4:08:51 PM >


BTW, for you IL-2 FB/PA players out there, have you checked out X1's "Banzai" expansion? I'm curious as to the content of that expansion. Did they actually provide any good material? And was there evidence they "borrowed" mods there, too...?

[Kondor77]

As for the "Banzai" add-on, I'm not so sure they had 'borrowed' to put it nicely :P any mods from the community. But it definately was not as popular as the other 3rd party add-ons like "Fall Blau" and Battle over Europe.

It does say it has over 100+ maybe even more skins included, and I'm quite sure that if they did take some of those without notifying the IL-2 community, there would be 500 posts in SimHQ about it.

[KodiakPA]

jasonb885, I salute you.:()1:

Great detective work!

[Wulfmann]

Nice chronology Jason and very helpful. I noticed the direct reply from X-1 when I emailed their contact and asked for clarification was missing.
What happened to me being part of X-1 and, as you labeled me, a troll?
Would that seem to dilute your argument when by your own quote Deathping is Trembke and I, not totally absent Jason, was the one counter attacking this anti-Semitic anti-Christian jerk. Where were you? Trashing those on your side not ready to buy a ticket to the Nuremberg rally?

As a photojournalist my entire life I have a clue about journalism. Real journalist, like Woodward and Bernstein do not begin with a conclusion, then arrange only those quotes and facts that agree with their position to arrive at said conclusion.

Had this method been used Nixon would have never resigned.

There is more than ample evidence to show wrong on X-1’s part and every reason for modders to be upset and want reasonable action. Many here are determined to prove you can go lower than X-1 and pledge no limit to it.

You infer Deathping may be Trembke but casually admit you have no proof. Let me ask you something, many supporters of mod makers have expressed their view; are they part of RUB in disguise or some of the many that believe showing their support for the great service Beery etc have done deserves a voice and a show of support?
Do you honestly believe that there is not one person in the world that has had a good experience with this group?
Not one?
Yet you imply this racist bigot that you would not confront yourself is in fact X-1.
I again emailed Reg Mcneal and because I offered to post the original explanation that they sent and I posted that you chose not to include, I basically stated I wanted to know who DeathPing ( I was as direct as I am here) was and if he was connected to X-1 in any way. Reg told me he does not know who it is and he is definitely not a part of X-1.
I am sure him saying that means nothing to the mob and certainly being relayed by a troll only proves it is impossible.

That was a helpful chronology with a well scripted arrangement butif that was to be your case you would be ill prepared in a real trial as you ignore what you don’t want to see and therefore can not draw a real conclusion, particularly when all here want no part of any other possible view. You and most here are not looking for a satisfactory resolution. You want vengeance!

This began as a legitimate concern to all involved.
X-1 acted improperly, by intent, by ignorance whatever. They are claiming they have/will remove any mod that they do not have permission to use. So that brings us back to those that say they have not been contacted. There are many mods that are a rearranging of the original files. Everything I have done is exactly that. Any file that has the same name as UBIs version with new numbers changed ships, altered weapons etc etc. is not “MY” property and if X-1 got a hold of my mods (and in spite of the fact some think I am part of X-1 because I refuse to hold out my right hand and wear the arm band on my sig) and they opened them and copied them I would be annoyed but I would not claim my original work has been violated. So, Has X-1 “stole” anything that is an “original” mod??
I would agree the first is improper, just not illegal. I certainly would not risk hurting SH3 over it

X-1 was wrong, but this group here is the ones doing the bigger damage to SH3. If I was thinking about getting SH3 today as a newbe, I would look at this crap and say. See ya losers, what a bunch of babies, including myself.

Why not do something constructive like form a three man panel to directly negotiate with X-1 and hammer out a compromise that will end this flame war? Or, do all prefer this flame war? Seems like you do.

Should I change my name to Trollmann, Jason? BTW, nice choice of escorts in the improved convoys.

Still, for now, Wulfmann

[terrapin]

This is not a flame war.

[Wulfmann]

This is not a flame war.

Well, that clears that up, thanks

Wulfmann

[redstorm101]

@jasonb885.........You have made this " mumbo jumbo" very CLEAR to me!!!...and I feel you have done your home work!!!!...Well done.. :|\


redstorm101............

[WhiteKnight77]

I know this is my first post here at Subsim, but I have been following this controversy very closely. First is the mod theft that is happening by this guy could tear the SHIII community apart and cause modders to quit all together.

Some things I want to try and clarify. While I am not a modder per se, I have done a few things in the past. I make AFCADs for MS Flight Simulator 2004 and distribute them. I research what I want to do and create what I think fits. While I used a 3rd party tool to create them, I am creating my own file. From the time I first place a parking spot or a gate at a terminal on an airport (even a stock airport file from the game), that becomes my mod for that game and it is copyright from then on. If I choose to packaget it for sale, I am free to do so. If I choose to give it away via free downloads, I can do that too. If I state that it can only be downloaded at one place, that is the only place it can be downloaded from and anyone else is breaking the law. If someone tries to package it and claim it as their own, they again are breaking the law.

I too, as MONOLITH has done, have had to get Ubi permission to use files from their games to be packaged as a mod. As GT182 most likely has seen at the Ubi forums that I believe Wulfmann has commented about with the 2 sticky posts, I noted such usage of RSE/Ubi files in a mod in one of those threads that Wulfmann apparently failed to read.

As noted:

WhiteKnight77

Originally posted by fizilbert:

:

However, if I create a new port in SH3 or a new skin for a ship, isnt that something I can call my own idea/change?


ah ha! See, now THAT is the question! What can and cannot be called your own work? If you create a skin, basically a texture that is wrapped over the ships model, then I "believe" that would be considered wholly yours and no one elses (almost like it's art). However, if you were to ALTER an existing skin made by Ubi, that would not be. Just because I take the Coca-cola logo and alter it to say "fizilbert-cola" does not mean the logo is now legally mine. Strangely enough, I have seen that here or on the subsim forum, someone has a ghost recon logo that looks just like the coca-cola logo. Technically, that's copyright/trademark infringement, though I think it'll be hard pressed for coke to really give a **** about it.

If you were to, say, alter the model (maybe you think that ship should have 3 masts instead of 2) then you're modifying code that belongs to Ubi, and thus probably is not considered your own. If you were to make up your own model and insert it into the game, then that model should be considered yours.

As I said, it is unclear these days what would and would not be considered yours. If I could simply mod SH3 and then consider it to be my work, what is to stop me from doing that and selling that product to the masses, with not a cent going to Ubi? There needs to be a line drawn in the sand that says "on this side, you're on developer's land and on that side you're on your own land." But the problem is, as of yet, there doesn't seem to be any clear legal line. And until there comes more and more cases like this popping up, there probably wont be. It'll be one of those "grey areas of the law."


LOL, I am the one with the Coca-Recon/Ghost Recon Classic logo and Coca-Cola logo (free advertising) in his sig. Others around the Ubi forums use a version too. US laws allow some latitude on using fonts and trademark ideas for lampooning purposes and that is all we have done with them to get a point across to Ubi, but this isn't about GR here.

This is about mod use in a paid for add-on. In a different post about this add-on I posted about copyright law, at least here in the US. That can be found in the SH3 SeaWolves addon announced (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/3931087933/r/2231012043#2231012043) thread.

If someone creates something from scratch as a skin or a model, that belongs to that person from the time such work is created, including letters to a loved one. If someone is selling a mod created by someone else such as the realistic smoke mod (I have it and used it while I had the game installed) for a profit, that is copyright infringement cut and dried. It does help if the modder includes a ReadMe file with the mod stating for what purposes the mod is designed for, freeware or payware. Addying a blurb that the mod is copyright with the © symbol goes a long way too.

Now, as far as using Ubi copyright material for a mod, it depends on what you include in it. Several years ago when Ubi developed the Black Thorn mission pack for Rogue Spear, they delayed the release due to the events of 9-11. Here in the US, they removed references to a situtation at an airport terminal and renamed it as a bus station, airplanes were removed and preplaced with buses. That conflicted with players from around the world that still had airplanes and airport signage. After finding this out, we were informed by a Ubi support person we could make a mod from the UK files that allowed those with the US version to play the Airport Mission as long as we didn't include textures with them to allow someone to have the map for free or sell it. Same with SOAF to GR mods. We were allowed to create a map pack that allowed those with SOAF to use the maps in GR, they could not be sold or include textures to be downloaded for those who didn't have SOAF. Those who included everything needed to play got cease and desist orders.

If you create something, it is yours and no one can use it without your permission much less sell it. If you choose to allow it and don't get a cut, it is your fault.

From the SH3 add on announced thread, I posted some copyright law that backs up what I state above from Copyright.gov (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wccc):

WHO CAN CLAIM COPYRIGHT

Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright.

Monolith is right about Ubi files in a mod, they belong to Ubi and you can't sell them or give to much of the files away. You are limited as to what you can use for a mod you intend to distribute by Ubi's copyright and that has to be included in your mod. If any of the mods that X1 is using has Ubi files that another modder used, then X1 is breaking the law.

From what I have seen, Jason put together everything that shows that X1 is less than scrupulous.

Now as far as community goes, I look at it as an entirety. Whether I only hang at Ubi, SimHQ, here or somewhere else, we all share one thing in common, the love for one game, SHIII.

As Monolith was a modder and a staff member at a different GR fansite than I am, he is still part of the GR community. Stating that such and such isn't because he doesn't post here means that you want to splinter the community and not help take care of those who may not know better about issues such as this. I want to see X1 put out of business. Wulfmann, open your eyes and take a look around, Asking for permission after the fact does not make what they are doing right or legal. Ya have to ask first.

[jasonb885]

jasonb885, I salute you.:()1:

Great detective work!

I can't take all the credit. Others did much of the work. I just assembled it into one document.

:up:

[retired1212]

How about this new signature banner? ;)

[jasonb885]

Nice chronology Jason and very helpful. I noticed the direct reply from X-1 when I emailed their contact and asked for clarification was missing.


Eh?

Please provide it to me and I'll consider including it.


What happened to me being part of X-1 and, as you labeled me, a troll?
Would that seem to dilute your argument when by your own quote Deathping is Trembke and I, not totally absent Jason, was the one counter attacking this anti-Semitic anti-Christian jerk. Where were you? Trashing those on your side not ready to buy a ticket to the Nuremberg rally?


I never claimed you had anything to do with X1. Check the threads yourself. I just labeled you a troll for whining about the middle ground in a situation where one does not exist. Since we've had proof positive mods were 'borrowed' you've continued the rallying cry, "let them repent, they're bowing to the community!". Sorry, no.


As a photojournalist my entire life I have a clue about journalism. Real journalist, like Woodward and Bernstein do not begin with a conclusion, then arrange only those quotes and facts that agree with their position to arrive at said conclusion.


Dude, whatever. I didn't make up the duplicity of these people. Their posts speak for themselves. The only bits not included are the full emails used, as I haven't acquired permission to repost them.

By all means, though, doublecheck the information. I present it as the evidence I have collected. Please, verify what is fact as fact and fiction as fiction, then.


Had this method been used Nixon would have never resigned.

There is more than ample evidence to show wrong on X-1’s part and every reason for modders to be upset and want reasonable action. Many here are determined to prove you can go lower than X-1 and pledge no limit to it.


Eh? I just want people to be aware of who those lamers are.


You infer Deathping may be Trembke but casually admit you have no proof. Let me ask you something, many supporters of mod makers have expressed their view; are they part of RUB in disguise or some of the many that believe showing their support for the great service Beery etc have done deserves a voice and a show of support?
Do you honestly believe that there is not one person in the world that has had a good experience with this group?
Not one?
Yet you imply this racist bigot that you would not confront yourself is in fact X-1.


Racist bigotry? Drop it. Find another analogy or this discussion ends, now.


I again emailed Reg Mcneal and because I offered to post the original explanation that they sent and I posted that you chose not to include, I basically stated I wanted to know who DeathPing ( I was as direct as I am here) was and if he was connected to X-1 in any way. Reg told me he does not know who it is and he is definitely not a part of X-1.
I am sure him saying that means nothing to the mob and certainly being relayed by a troll only proves it is impossible.


You have not contacted me in any manner to express interest in providing this information, except now, here, in this forum, in this very post. Eh?

By all means, let's see your discussion with X1, then.

Give that Leonard has often taken to forums to post support for his products as other people -- this is not suposition, this is proven fact, based on his own failure to mask his identity in some emails to people -- it's hard to take anything this individual claims as truth.


That was a helpful chronology with a well scripted arrangement butif that was to be your case you would be ill prepared in a real trial as you ignore what you don’t want to see and therefore can not draw a real conclusion, particularly when all here want no part of any other possible view. You and most here are not looking for a satisfactory resolution. You want vengeance!


What did I ignore. By all means, present your facts.

Or is your rant just a strawman?


This began as a legitimate concern to all involved.
X-1 acted improperly, by intent, by ignorance whatever. They are claiming they have/will remove any mod that they do not have permission to use. So that brings us back to those that say they have not been contacted. There are many mods that are a rearranging of the original files. Everything I have done is exactly that. Any file that has the same name as UBIs version with new numbers changed ships, altered weapons etc etc. is not “MY” property and if X-1 got a hold of my mods (and in spite of the fact some think I am part of X-1 because I refuse to hold out my right hand and wear the arm band on my sig) and they opened them and copied them I would be annoyed but I would not claim my original work has been violated. So, Has X-1 “stole” anything that is an “original” mod??
I would agree the first is improper, just not illegal. I certainly would not risk hurting SH3 over it


I have no idea. It isn't my place to judge what has been borrowed, taken without permission, is or is not Ubisoft's property, and so forth. My goal is merely to demonstrate these people are scammers and not to be trusted.


X-1 was wrong, but this group here is the ones doing the bigger damage to SH3. If I was thinking about getting SH3 today as a newbe, I would look at this crap and say. See ya losers, what a bunch of babies, including myself.


Darn. I care.


Why not do something constructive like form a three man panel to directly negotiate with X-1 and hammer out a compromise that will end this flame war? Or, do all prefer this flame war? Seems like you do.


Heh. What panel? What people? There's no organization here. It's just a bunch of people, together, that happen to make mods and liberally share information and help one another. That's it. There's no group, no panel, no organization, no one true plan.


Should I change my name to Trollmann, Jason? BTW, nice choice of escorts in the improved convoys.

Still, for now, Wulfmann

Dude, give it a rest.

Just present the evidence you have accumulated from direct contact with X1 or CP and send it my way. I'll post it directly, as is, for all to see. Or simply reproduce the information here. My goal isn't to hide the truth. If you have something vital to share with me, and everyone else reading, please, share.

I'd love to be proven wrong.

What's happened is a travesty.

[jasonb885]

Last word on this.

As I said before, I purchased some things from Mr. Trombke overseas, and sent a little "extra" and he was courteous and fair enough to send me coinage as change with my product. This shows me an honest business man and I think you all should be ashamed of yourselves.

Out


I guess he's one of those "in b4 l0ck" people.

Heh.

The Ubisoft forum discussion on this matter now appears to be closed.

:up:

[thanos]

Coinage? Over mail? Overseas? Yea right...

In any case, to me it looks like deathping is just a troll. I don't think it's trombke because as someone already said, his english is better than trombke's (although he also apears to be german).

He certainly is funny though :lol:

[jasonb885]

Coinage? Over mail? Overseas? Yea right...

In any case, to me it looks like deathping is just a troll. I don't think it's trombke because as someone already said, his english is better than trombke's (although he also apears to be german).

He certainly is funny though :lol:

I think I agree with you.

It's too strange otherwise.

Who it is specifically, though, I imagine we'll never know. Perhaps he's a tool's tool?

:know:

[Wulfmann]

It is finally obvious to me a reasonable solution is not desired.

When Jason is compared to Woodward and Bernstein by arranging the post that support the desires of the mob, and only them, how can logic have any place.
When no one prefers to have a few representatives resolve this away from this flame war (that is not a flame war) but insist on harmonized bashing as the way for satisfaction, there is no point in denying that no more can be said.

I do hope others are working outside this witch hunt to resolve this.

Too bad, as if this mod could have been done correctly it would have increased the size of this community.
X-1 may be to blame for a lot. But, those that overreacted did the real damage.

You may now all be of one accord; the choir is ready for more sermons.

Wulfmann

[DedEye]

Wulfmann, I appreciate your opines on this subject, and I love to hear an opposite point of view; it makes me think. However, I do not appreciate your insinuations that, because I support the modders here on this one, that I'm somehow part of a foaming-at-the-mouth-lynch-mob or a lemming. It also does little to reinforce your assertion that you are in the middle. This is not a slight, insult, or anything else but me telling you what your posts are saying to me.

The fact is there is more than enough evidence to show that X1 attempted to exploit other people's hard work for monetary gain. I don't know that I, myself, can ever trust people who have dmeonstrated this type of morality.

[Jace11]

H is Haldeman...

[John Channing]

This is not a flame war.

Well, that clears that up, thanks

Wulfmann
OK then... let me make it official.

The personal attacks, insinuated or otherwise, on BOTH sides, stop here and now.

I have said it countless times before, but it needs saying here... debate, argue, illuminate and elucidate as much as you want.... but do it in a respectful manner.

I guess there is one silver lining to all of this. At least everyone has stopped complaining about Starforce.

JCC

[terrapin]

Update 07/28: I learned that X1 in cooperation with 'Reggie' ist still playing the same foul game...they are still collecting new mods and including them to their Scamware (c), hoping the author will not notice it.

And also today I was informed by an gfx artist who wondered why he saw something he did for combatplanes initially now in SeaScam (c). AFTER he complained he was offered a free copy and a 'small amount of money' (quote from the shady guy acting as mod dealer of X1).

(Before *anyone* :D is going through the roof again: I got permission by the gfx guy to tell the basic facts. I have more details plus rather private stuff on file, but I won't make them public.)


I AGAIN STRONGLY encourage all modders to include a few lines legaleese in their readmes, if they don't want their work exploited commercially by the Canadian-German ScamAlliance (c)

[Jace11]

How do you know they are currently still "adding" mods to the game without consent?

[terrapin]

How do you know they are currently still "adding" mods to the game without consent?

Because I have good contacts and ~ 15 new mails per hour referring to this issue alone

[Beery]

It is finally obvious to me a reasonable solution is not desired.

When Jason is compared to Woodward and Bernstein by arranging the post that support the desires of the mob, and only them, how can logic have any place.

Well, on the one hand we have 'the mob' - a group of folks who are justifiably upset about the fact that an unscrupulous businessman and his cronies tried to make money from the mob's hard work. On the other hand, we have you, who apparently fails to see how X1 Software is at fault in any way. Your position, not ours, is the illogical one, since it takes as its basis the idea that X1 is blameless because they are trying to put right what they did wrong. By that logic, a jewel thief would be blameless if he was caught while trying to give a diamond necklace back to its original owner. Not that I'm by any means convinced that X1 is trying to do the right thing. My fellow mod-makers inform me that indeed they are not.

In short, you are prepared to believe anything that X1 & Co. say. You are prepared to believe nothing that 'the mob' says. How is that taking the middle ground? A person taking the middle ground would weigh evidence carefully and come up with the most reasonable result. What you have done is to play devil's advocate - attempting to defend X1 from any attack, using whatever means are likely to cloud over the issue, including sophistry such as your 'repentent jewel thief' argument, and ad-hominem attacks such as calling us 'the mob'.

[Jace11]

I think he just can't be bothered to read anything and is trying to start a flame war. He probably likes the attention gained from being the odd one out.

[Nico71]

Wulfman has been told the facts countless times, but he ignores them consequently. He's insulting and generalizing the whole community by comparing them with Nazi's, KKK, etc, or offend the community by calling them "mob". Being a moderator myself, I can assure you that his unreasonable Nazi-comparisons alone would have warranted an immediate and permanent ban on my board without any warning! I don't see how we can discuss the topic when some guy doesn't cease to offend us with obvious trolling!

[August]

I guess there is one silver lining to all of this. At least everyone has stopped complaining about Starforce.

I suspect there's an X1/Starforce link somehow. :-j

[Razman23]

I, for one, look forward to full disclosure.

I think I will be making one of my own, soon.

:up:

You coming out of the closet?!?!?!?!!?!?!?! :huh:

J/K!!!!!!!

[terrapin]

Wulfman has been told the facts countless times, but he ignores them consequently. He's insulting and generalizing the whole community by comparing them with Nazi's, KKK, etc, or offend the community by calling them "mob". Being a moderator myself, I can assure you that his unreasonable Nazi-comparisons alone would have warranted an immediate and permanent ban on my board without any warning! I don't see how we can discuss the topic when some guy doesn't cease to offend us with obvious trolling!

Yup, If he would be on the payroll of X1 I could understand his postings, but as he's not I'm really wondering...

[Dagger U-539]

It is finally obvious to me a reasonable solution is not desired.

When Jason is compared to Woodward and Bernstein by arranging the post that support the desires of the mob, and only them, how can logic have any place.
When no one prefers to have a few representatives resolve this away from this flame war (that is not a flame war) but insist on harmonized bashing as the way for satisfaction, there is no point in denying that no more can be said.

I do hope others are working outside this witch hunt to resolve this.

Too bad, as if this mod could have been done correctly it would have increased the size of this community.
X-1 may be to blame for a lot. But, those that overreacted did the real damage.

You may now all be of one accord; the choir is ready for more sermons.

Wulfmann
I really can't agree that the Subsim community has done more harn than X1.Fact is they STOLE and attempted to CHEAT the modders,by getting paid for their work and not paying or even acknowleging them and their hard work.If X1 had been upfront and asked EVERY modder for their permission to sell their work and offer to pay them for it..then none of this would have happened.Instead they stole,then lied.and then AFTER the fact they tried to help their position by saying"Oh yeah..we're going to take all the mods we don't have permission out"and after all the lies we're supposed to believe them?It's a tough pill to swollow.
Is this a witch hunt? Oh heck no...a witch hunt has no basis in fact,this however is based totally on fact.again they(and no I won't be politically correct)STOLE.they LIED,they tried to decieve not only people here but everywhere.
I wish they had done things different and maybe everyone could have come out ahead.Will they find a sympathic ear here? I doubt it seriously.But lets wait and see.
X1 has nobody to blame for all this but themselves,and NO they're NOT going to be forgiven by just senting a message boy around saying"oh we messed up,and yes we lied, but this time we're telling the truth"

[Hawkers]

Hello again, Wulfmann :up:

I've read your posts here with interest, but seriously: how can you continue to give the benefit of doubt to people who have resorted to threats, insults, postings of pornographic links, etc?

You have said that a reasonable solution is not desired here - show me a reasonable solution, and I'll gladly consider it.

Personally, I'm at a loss as to what such a reasonable solution could be, given X1'a attitude, when confronted with their wrongdoing :doh:

I don't believe in witch hunts. But I do believe that a community and its modders have a right to defend themselves against piracy of their work.

The detective work has been done, the facts are there to see (read the UBI forum).

If these people had held up their hands and said "fair enough - you've got us bang to rights - we're sorry", a reasonable solution might have been attained.

They did not, and now the time for any such resolution has long gone.

I personally feel that having read through the posts both here and at UBI, you can't reason with them, and I believe that your desire to defend what has now been shown to be the indefensible, is misguided.

Sorry, mate, but that's how I feel, and that's how the majority of members and modders that make up this community feel, and your anologies of witch-hunts, cross-burnings only adds insult to our injury.

Reasonable solutions are no longer possible, and in any case, any solution to this one is probably out of our hands: the final decision on what to do about this inept, dishonest company that is X1 lies with UBISoft and Matrix.

I hope they reach their decision soon, so that we can all return to some sort of normality.

Hawkers :up:

[Beery]

...I can assure you that his unreasonable Nazi-comparisons alone would have warranted an immediate and permanent ban on my board without any warning!...

As a moderator myself, I often wonder if it might be fun to tone down such ad-hominem attacks so that they appear comical. I might try that - say changing 'nazis' into 'nice guys', or just editing out all such sophistries. It might be fun. I'll have to try that. Of course the chance rarely comes up on my forums - it only ever seems to be the forums that I don't moderate that attract the trolls. :down:

[terrapin]

This is from 'Ossi', as of today'

Soundmod by Incognito Soundworks, with further mods by Northern Digital

Contact Mod by Fletcher

Hi-res subs by Sean Gilleran

U-boat Interior by Ship Hunter

DD Fix by Jungman

Radiolog by Irishred, further mods by CombatPlanes

Resupply by SANSAL

I think this his will be the final . '


Please note that he's only 'thinking' that the list above is the complete one - he also warns that the 'trial version' on the open server contained 'a very dangerous Virus' and that 'we had to close the server because of that virus'.

:rotfl:

[Jace11]

Forget Wolfie, he's merely a distraction.

Back to the issue at hand, terrapin, are you unable to reveal which new mods they are adding?

Edit: obviously not, thanks for list.

Also, I've heard the campaign layer of seewolves is severely lacking and badly built. Apparently the promised number of new bases is not there and many things are not integrated properly.

I have heard it looks amaturish and incomplete. The dunkirk evac is missing, dodgy D-Day stuff (evolve from entry date not used), No waypoints for most..

It sounds a mess, I'll have to look at it myself...:)

[terrapin]

...I can assure you that his unreasonable Nazi-comparisons alone would have warranted an immediate and permanent ban on my board without any warning!...

As a moderator myself, I often wonder if it might be fun to tone down such ad-hominem attacks so that they appear comical. I might try that - say changing 'nazis' into 'nice guys', or just editing out all such sophistries. It might be fun. I'll have to try that. Of course the chance rarely comes up on my forums - it only ever seems to be the forums that I don't moderate that attract the trolls. :down:

Frugal (http://frugalsworld.com) once had a script turning bad words completely upside down...it was REALLY funny
:)

[Beery]

...Radiolog by Irishred, further mods by CombatPlanes ...

Yeah, right. Let me give a quick translation of that bit:

Radiolog by Irishred. Further mods by Irishred, but we agreed not to use them, so we'll just say they're ours.

This is the reality. If they don't get permission for something they want, they just take it anyway and claim it's their own work.

[Wulfmann]

My intention in this was to help find resolution and give other ways to look at this for the benefit of this group, not X-1.

In spite of the fact I have been labeled many derogatory things for not towing the party line, I felt it was important to maintain a different point.

I no longer feel my attempt at a dissenting voice is constructive. It is not welcomed and resented such that one must either be of this mob mentality or be its enemy.

I do not see how my involvement will bring any positive resolution and only feed the frenzy.

I have never contended X-1 was not wrong, ever. But, I just can’t see why that is such a good reason to do so much harm to the SH3 community.

My opinion has clearly been rejected and there is an insistence of conformity such that those that may mean well are then attacked as the enemy, a member of X-1, a troll. That is clearly an indication that view or person, or both are not wanted and I am withdrawing from this discussion as I feel my absence will promote better harmony so this rally can be of the same voice. You have every right to insist on this and I respect that right.

Hawker, I never cared about what X-1 was doing. It was the self destructive response that was more troubling. The modders should have demanded action, I just feel they have done more harm with their reaction than X-1 did by their actions. Just my opinion, obviously I must be mistaken.

Now I must ask in sincere curiosity as I have been scratching my head in wonder. With all the derogatory things people have said, how is this joke a thing to be drawn attention too?
I am really missing your logic, but seem to be missing many points on this.

This is not a flame war.

Well, that clears that up, thanks

Wulfmann
OK then... let me make it official.

The personal attacks, insinuated or otherwise, on BOTH sides, stop here and now.
I have said it countless times before, but it needs saying here... debate, argue, illuminate and elucidate as much as you want.... but do it in a respectful manner.JCC

Wulfmann

[irishred]

This is from 'Ossi', as of today'

Soundmod by Incognito Soundworks, with further mods by Northern Digital

Contact Mod by Fletcher

Hi-res subs by Sean Gilleran

U-boat Interior by Ship Hunter

DD Fix by Jungman

Radiolog by Irishred, further mods by CombatPlanes

Resupply by SANSAL

I think this his will be the final . '


Please note that he's only 'thinking' that the list above is the complete one - he also warns that the 'trial version' on the open server contained 'a very dangerous Virus' and that 'we had to close the server because of that virus'.

:rotfl:

Yes, I have allowed the lite version of radiolog to be used, and only that version, I have not given permission for any parts of the heavy version to be used, as per the readme clause. As for the dangerous virus, I suppose that was responsible for the porn links.

[Jace11]

ok irish.. respect your decision either way,

What is the DD fix? Is that Jungman's sonar fix for AI sensors??

Anyway, thats a pretty small list now. But as they have been persistantly dishonest with us, I simply cannot trust it being a complete list.

[terrapin]

What is the DD fix? Is that Jungman's sonar fix for AI sensors??

I think so...

[terrapin]

As for the dangerous virus, I suppose that was responsible for the porn links.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

[Razman23]

My intention in this was to help find resolution and give other ways to look at this for the benefit of this group, not X-1.

In spite of the fact I ha--------------------SNIP!----------------as you want.... but do it in a respectful manner.JCC

Wulfmann

If you dont own the game (per one of your long winded posts before), why do you care what happens with X1 and the sub mod community?

If you want to play the devils advocate, try Dr Phil.

[Elder-Pirate]

Whew I thought for sure there was gonna be a knock down


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/Fight.gif

There for awhile.


Bye Wulfie :cry:

[slow_n_ez]

* Permissions*

All original and composed textures or assets in this modification remain property of the sources respective owners.

You MAY distribute this ZIP,RAR,EXE or other formated file formats You may include in any not-for-profit electronic format (BBS, Internet,CD, etc) as long as you contact me first, and include all files, including this readme, intact in the original archive.

This modification is freely given, even though I am the owner the enclosed work, as a goodwill gesture to the game community with no charges of any kind . Enjoy .

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A standard clause in a halflife modification ... you may use it at your discreation if you like :cool: re-word if you like

[jasonb885]

It is finally obvious to me a reasonable solution is not desired.


Yawn.


When Jason is compared to Woodward and Bernstein by arranging the post that support the desires of the mob, and only them, how can logic have any place.


Not a comparison I made or was striving for.


When no one prefers to have a few representatives resolve this away from this flame war (that is not a flame war) but insist on harmonized bashing as the way for satisfaction, there is no point in denying that no more can be said.


Who? There is no one who speaks 'for' the community. Each mod maker is responsible for his own work, or at least for speaking out in its defense if it appears to be included without permission.


I do hope others are working outside this witch hunt to resolve this.


Yes, hopefully some of them have been successful in dissuading Matrxigames from perpetuating this scam.


Too bad, as if this mod could have been done correctly it would have increased the size of this community.
X-1 may be to blame for a lot. But, those that overreacted did the real damage.


No damage has been done. Truth has been served.


You may now all be of one accord; the choir is ready for more sermons.

Wulfmann

I never made any sermons, although you seem to be keen on them.

I simply laid out the evidence as I have seen it.

Feel free to come up with a different hypothesis based upon your own investigation.

Or keep crying foul. Your argument is a strawman, plain and simple.

[Hawkers]

Wulfmann wrote:
I never cared about what X-1 was doing. It was the self destructive response that was more troubling.

I think if you were a creator and/or user of mods within this community, you'd care about BOTH :o

Hawkers :up:

[John Channing]

OK.. it seems that yet another reminder is in order here.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. As long as it is put forward in a rational and mature fashion and shows respect for the other person's opinion then it is welcome here. No one should ever be shouted down or chased away simply for stating an opinion here. This isn't like some other "popular" simulation boards... the level of discussion will not be determined by the loudest or most persistant. That's not what we are about.

We are better than that.

Thanks

JCC

[HundertzehnGustav]

The line: "All your mods now belong to us" would be a good line for OSSI. Almost ad verbatim his position.

The X 1 policy line is:
"You make'm for free, we take'm for free!"

OSSI's personal justification:
"Don't think I do this for money. I'm a Commie, I work for the Community!"


:rock: OMG :rotfl:

Givem hellllllll :arrgh!: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[kriller2]

Hmm.. I looked at the screenshots and saw my harbour mod included and I haven't been contacted :nope: Shame on X1...
/Kriller

[GT182]

Sorry I haven't bee here in the last couple of days and an explanation of what I DID at the SHIII forums should be made seeinf TAL has linked posts from there.

First off, I closed the 2 X1 Discussions as things were getting out of hand. Second, Deathpig as I call him made ethnic slurs directly to The Avon Lady which was wrong, no matter how you look at it. It's one thing I won't tollerate at all, being a moderator at SHIII. My biggest mistake was editing out those slurs. They should have been left ao all could see what an a** he was. After that was done I received a PM from him asking me what ethnic slurs did he make and to prove that he made them. DUH, he knew I had edited them out, and after the fact made his statement to me. Since then I have asked that he, Deathping/OSSI and any other alias he goes by, be permanently banned from UBI's SHIII Forums, including the IP addresses he has used.


Here's my stand on the matter which is closed over there. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/9931037933/p/3

Sorry to direct the troubles over here but I figure there are more members here that can better handle this idiot and his aliases. So far you've all backed him into a corner he can't get out of and shown everyone what kind of people run X1. My congratulations to you all. Hopefully you have saved the modder's dignity and work by exposing these people. I'm just sorry that UBI has gone along with them on selling this stuff that doesn't belong to X1.

Hats off to Terrapin, Beery, Jason and all the others that have stood up against this mess. And to Wulfman too, for trying to take a stand for neither side. That takes guts my friend. Tho all this has been a heated debate on both sides, all have done a commendable job on trying to keep their cool. ~S!~

[John Channing]

I would, however, appreciate it if, in the future, you would not suggest that people take their flamewars on the UbiSoft Silent Hunter 3 forum to this venue.

All of the moderators here work very hard to keep things on an even keel and I really don't appreciate you telling people to bring their arguements here.

Thanks

JCC

[Razman23]

Yep, I agree.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDtAuIY!vxCf!LqsXBkoLXuJ0MS!*SqpH8VwXdtWpv4XVx7N BucxjJh2umHmm2c83SmaHcre6HAhkr33eDqi82b2CUpiYc1WH7 nGFtSe74!5sVUE*1!vg/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

[Operator]

Yep, I agree.

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDtAuIY!vxCf!LqsXBkoLXuJ0MS!*SqpH8VwXdtWpv4XVx7N BucxjJh2umHmm2c83SmaHcre6HAhkr33eDqi82b2CUpiYc1WH7 nGFtSe74!5sVUE*1!vg/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

Lmao.

[GT182]

Well, this is where the whole thing started John, so this is where it should end hopefully. What was started at SHIII was done so with the link to here. I only sent it back to where it started.

[Elder-Pirate]

Caution

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/hp-512-41.gif

This thread will self destruct in five minutes.






:-j :-j

[KiloAlpha4]

This is one reason why i dropped my total redo mod that i was doing for sh3...bunch of thieves....

[Abraham]

My intention in this was to help find resolution and give other ways to look at this for the benefit of this group, not X-1.

In spite of the fact I have been labeled many derogatory things for not towing the party line, I felt it was important to maintain a different point.

I no longer feel my attempt at a dissenting voice is constructive. It is not welcomed and resented such that one must either be of this mob mentality or be its enemy.

I do not see how my involvement will bring any positive resolution and only feed the frenzy.

I have never contended X-1 was not wrong, ever. But, I just can’t see why that is such a good reason to do so much harm to the SH3 community.

My opinion has clearly been rejected and there is an insistence of conformity such that those that may mean well are then attacked as the enemy, a member of X-1, a troll. That is clearly an indication that view or person, or both are not wanted and I am withdrawing from this discussion as I feel my absence will promote better harmony so this rally can be of the same voice. You have every right to insist on this and I respect that right.

Hawker, I never cared about what X-1 was doing. It was the self destructive response that was more troubling. The modders should have demanded action, I just feel they have done more harm with their reaction than X-1 did by their actions. Just my opinion, obviously I must be mistaken.

Now I must ask in sincere curiosity as I have been scratching my head in wonder. With all the derogatory things people have said, how is this joke a thing to be drawn attention too?
I am really missing your logic, but seem to be missing many points on this.

This is not a flame war.

Well, that clears that up, thanks

Wulfmann
OK then... let me make it official.

The personal attacks, insinuated or otherwise, on BOTH sides, stop here and now.
I have said it countless times before, but it needs saying here... debate, argue, illuminate and elucidate as much as you want.... but do it in a respectful manner.JCC

Wulfmann
Dear Wulfman,

I few days ago you took the stand that you were 'the devils advocate', the 'alter ego' of the community, a reasonable voice in the middle, claiming to be victimised by 'the mob'.
You stood up vigurously against Deatping's ethnic slurs against a member of our community, The Avon Lady.
I and some others applauded you for your stand. I'm convinced you had the best intentions when you took up this position.
I respect everybody's right on these forums to be heard within the rules of the site.

Since then a lot more new accusations and facts have turned up, most important some facts uncovered by jasonb885.
Neal has done his own investigation and come up with a balanced but clear statement in the (sister) thread: My statement on the X 1 Seewolfe Expansion"

If you want to be the reasonable voice in the middle you also have to listen to other reasonable voices.
You can't just spit irony or sarcasm at jason, terrapin or others, modders or not, or completely ignore the portance of Neals statement. He doesn't speak out that often and that clear about a software company unless there is a real problem.

With me you are having a credibility problem now, whether you care or not.
Just like you I like to see things form both sides and I will never flame at anybody on this forum - although some might say I sometimes do on the General Topics Forum - but after seeing or hearing things from both sides it's sometimes better to make a clear choice.
But you stick with your position whatever you hear from others...

You are losing your credibility with me because it seems that you take X 1, 'Reggie McNeal' or whomever on their word. I did so in the very beginning of this debate but it is totally clear by now that X 1 is not a trustworthy source of information. So adapt your point of view...
You keep promoting some sort of committee to solve a problem that is already 'solved' by Neals statement as far as I am concerned, thus 'beating a dead horse'...

And I'm getting irritated by your constant referring to the community as a "mob", while complaining about it's lynching mentality. I'm sure some see this - rightly or wrongly - just as a provocation from your side. You should stop that...

Finally I do not consider the response of the community self-destructive. Nothing good for the community would have come out of X 1's Seewolfe project.
Nor do a see the community weakened by this affair. On the contrary, I consider it very united against robbing software from modders and pornographic and antisemitic oustings against members of this community.

If you love fierce discussions why not go to the General Topics Forum and join the discussions there? Or start your own subject?

Instead of a reasonable voice in the middle you turned yourself into a lone voice in the desert...
Your original point of view deserves better!
:-?

[terrapin]

OSSI is back! On the German board of the Gamestar mag he's registered as "Wolfer", and is doing the same crap as he did here: pretend that he is just a user and defends X1 at all costs, with the same arguments we have heard from him already! BTW, it is a new account, and he's only posting in the Seewölfe thread!

http://forum.gamestar.de/gspinboard/showthread.php?t=139486

[redstorm101]

@Abraham.....That was well said!!!............ :up:

[redstorm101]

Caution

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/oleman/hp-512-41.gif

This thread will self destruct in five minutes.






:-j :-j



:rotfl: .....................that was funny

[KiloAlpha4]

If the scope/limit of his sales/advertising for seawolves is bulletin boards and forums then seawolves is already sunk from your guy's torpedoing efforts. great job guys keep up the good work. Hunt him like seawolves ! lol. :rock:

Death to all pirates :arrgh!: sink 'em all-dasboot

On my soon to come clan site you can bet there will be a HUGE ban x1 software drive and a explaination of how x1 aquires it's "software" that it tries to sell. It will be a PERMANENT BAN.

[thanos]

OSSI is back! On the German board of the Gamestar mag he's registered as "Wolfer", and is doing the same crap as he did here: pretend that he is just a user and defends X1 at all costs, with the same arguments we have heard from him already! BTW, it is a new account, and he's only posting in the Seewölfe thread!

http://forum.gamestar.de/gspinboard/showthread.php?t=139486

Hey, it's the weekend so maybe it's his "nephew" again! :roll:

[KiloAlpha4]

I'm a month + behind in checking out sh3 released mods rofl I have alot of catching up to do.

[Duncan Idaho]

OSSI is back! On the German board of the Gamestar mag he's registered as "Wolfer", and is doing the same crap as he did here: pretend that he is just a user and defends X1 at all costs, with the same arguments we have heard from him already! BTW, it is a new account, and he's only posting in the Seewölfe thread!

http://forum.gamestar.de/gspinboard/showthread.php?t=139486

I'll just take your word for that. I can't read a word of the German there, so he could be trying to sell snake oil for all I can tell. ;)

[XabbaRus]

So anyone heard from any distribution companies etc or gaming magazines?

[Hertston]

So anyone heard from any distribution companies etc or gaming magazines?

Matrix (http://www.matrixgames.com) have commented. For some reason I can't link to the thread, its on the second page of the General Discussion forum, "X1 ripping off modders in SH3 expansion?".

I won't comment on it other than to say I was disappointed the thread got locked when I could see no real reason for doing so; you can read it for yourselves. I will draw attention to Marc's comment that "we´re currently in no way connected to this product".

I suspect any other distribution companies are also perfectly well aware of the allegations made, and would make appropriate enquiries before agreeing any deal. I would be surprised if the press commented before such a deal was agreed. At present the game has not been published and they cannot condemn on the basis of a leaked beta - for which an explanation has been provided regardless of how plausible or otherwise those here may find it.

[The Avon Lady]

Matrix (http://www.matrixgames.com) have commented. For some reason I can't link to the thread
Child's play (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=910065)! :smug:

;)

[Seminole]

If you all keep talking about this add-on I might just have to buy a copy out of sheer morbid curosity..... :nope:

[lifer]

Yeah, ONE of us should buy a copy. Then we rip the content, rename it, upload it here and claim that X1 allowed us to use it. After all X1 should be familiar with actions like this :D

[Blackmuzzle]

Heh... neat how the zen-like "equal blame" thing is used here :roll:
Kinda like back some time ago when a TV station was using and broadcasting video material downloaded from a community website I'm affiliated with, and when cornered went all "Oh but you violated OUR rights by recording our program which contained your video"...


I'm afraid the only waterproof way is to wait and see what (if anything at all) X1 is going to finally have the publisher sell. The bad news is that a lawsuit in such matters is a pain in the aft section. :shifty:

[John Channing]

Yeah, ONE of us should buy a copy. Then we rip the content, rename it, upload it here ...

Or not...

JCC

[lifer]

Or not...
JCC

Uh...I knew this was gonna happen. Don't get me wrong John. I do not intend on actually doing what I wrote. I think it's bad enough what X1 did to this community and I've made my decision concerning 'Seawolves' anyway (I WON'T buy it) but it still does feel good to kick'em while they're down :D

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I like thinking this community is large/powerful enough to have an impact on the X1 heretics ability to pull a profit out of their bogus venture.

This IS the biggest Submarine Sim community around right? ....

Right.

lol... More than a few here have ways of "depth charging" them/X1.

[John Channing]

In his best Al Pacino voice...

Everytime I think this thread is gone THEY DRAG IT BACK UP!

JCC

[U-1974]

in another Pachino voice

Say hello to our little friend! :rotfl:

[JBClark]

JCC,

The answer of course is that unrequited desires for revenge are among the strongest of human emotions. Stronger perhaps than loyalty, friendship or love.

I have to fight it myself. SF disabled my cd writer but I have a workaround that is no more inconvenient than the ridiculous way I have to boot and configure my system anyway.

My old man used to tell me that "You have to pick your battles, you won't win them all." This battle is over for me. I have my workaround and my determination not to spend money on anything that includes SF in the future. No big deal. There are many greater tragedys in the world.

JBC

[slow_n_ez]

How many forum members does it take to change a light bulb ?

1 to change the light bulb.

1 to post that the light bulb has been changed.

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the
light bulb could have been changed differently.

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.

27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light
bulbs.

53 to flame the spell checkers.

6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb"
... another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive.

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is
"lamp".

15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light
bulb" is perfectly correct.

156 to email the participant's ISPs complaining that they are in
violation of their "acceptable use policy".

109 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please
take this discussion to a lightbulb forum.

203 to demand that cross posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum,
and lightbulb forum about changing light bulbs be stopped.

111 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light
bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum.

306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where
to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
technique and what brands are faulty.

27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs.

14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and then post the
corrected URLs.

27 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to
this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group.

33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including
all headers and signatures, and add "Me too".
12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they
cannot handle the light bulb controversy.

19 to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three".

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.

44 to ask what is a "FAQ"?

1243 to post : " lol "

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

143 to say "do a search on 'light bulbs' before posting questions
about light bulbs".

1 new forum member to respond to the original post 6 months from now
and to start it all over again.

[John Channing]

JCC,

The answer of course is that unrequited desires for revenge are among the strongest of human emotions. Stronger perhaps than loyalty, friendship or love.

I have to fight it myself. SF disabled my cd writer but I have a workaround that is no more inconvenient than the ridiculous way I have to boot and configure my system anyway.

My old man used to tell me that "You have to pick your battles, you won't win them all." This battle is over for me. I have my workaround and my determination not to spend money on anything that includes SF in the future. No big deal. There are many greater tragedys in the world.

JBC

Ummmm... I don't think you are quite through with your personal "battles" as this thread had exactly zero to do with Starforce.

And it might help to remember that it's just a game?

JCC

[JBClark]

JCC,

The answer of course is that unrequited desires for revenge are among the strongest of human emotions. Stronger perhaps than loyalty, friendship or love.

I have to fight it myself. SF disabled my cd writer but I have a workaround that is no more inconvenient than the ridiculous way I have to boot and configure my system anyway.

My old man used to tell me that "You have to pick your battles, you won't win them all." This battle is over for me. I have my workaround and my determination not to spend money on anything that includes SF in the future. No big deal. There are many greater tragedys in the world.

JBC

Ummmm... I don't think you are quite through with your personal "battles" as this thread had exactly zero to do with Starforce.

And it might help to remember that it's just a game?

JCC

Yes indeed, I got my threads confused. Sorry.

But after 17 pages, who can blame me? I started out trying to say that Seewolves has not hurt me but I was posting to try to support all the folks here that might have been taken advantage of. Somewhere along the line I fell into my own trap and started ranting about SF. Again, my apologies, this is what I get for drinking and typing.

[Elder-Pirate]

Well ?.............Just how many watts is this 'Lightbulb" anyway?? :-?







:rotfl:

[JBClark]

Not many, I'm afraid. A very dim bulb here, I must admit. :rock:

[Elder-Pirate]

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Ok I'm through...for Watt it's worth. :rotfl:

[Beery]

What about all the folks who say that the original light bulb is good enough (even if it's broken), and that they don't see the point in changing it?

What about all the folks who refuse to use the new light bulb, but who complain that it's no good (even though they admit they've never even seen it switched on)?

What about the folks who are afraid that the new light bulb will reconfigure their entire electrical system, so they prefer to sit in the dark?

[Abraham]

How many forum members does it take to change a light bulb ?

1 to change the light bulb.

1 to post that the light bulb has been changed.

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the
light bulb could have been changed differently.

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.

27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light
bulbs.

53 to flame the spell checkers.

6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb"
... another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive.

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is
"lamp".

15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light
bulb" is perfectly correct.

156 to email the participant's ISPs complaining that they are in
violation of their "acceptable use policy".

109 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please
take this discussion to a lightbulb forum.

203 to demand that cross posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum,
and lightbulb forum about changing light bulbs be stopped.

111 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light
bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum.

306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where
to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this
technique and what brands are faulty.

27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs.

14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly and then post the
corrected URLs.

27 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to
this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group.

33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including
all headers and signatures, and add "Me too".
12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they
cannot handle the light bulb controversy.

19 to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three".

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.

44 to ask what is a "FAQ"?

1243 to post : " lol "

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

143 to say "do a search on 'light bulbs' before posting questions
about light bulbs".

1 new forum member to respond to the original post 6 months from now
and to start it all over again.
@ Slow_n_ez:
It did not take you very long to get to the essence of the Subsim.com forums, didn't it?
(I recognised a lot of suggested postings that could have been made by me...)
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Syxx_Killer]

I know we all want this thread to die, and I apologize for bringing it up again, but for those who haven't seen it Combatplane's website now features SeaWolves on it.

http://www.combatplanes.ca/seawolves.htm

Available in Germany and Austria in September.

[terrapin]

I know we all want this thread to die, and I apologize for bringing it up again, but for those who haven't seen it Combatplane's website now features SeaWolves on it.

http://www.combatplanes.ca/seawolves.htm

Available in Germany and Austria in September.


Yeah, and in October nobody will talk about SeaScam ;)

[jasonb885]

I know we all want this thread to die, and I apologize for bringing it up again, but for those who haven't seen it Combatplane's website now features SeaWolves on it.

http://www.combatplanes.ca/seawolves.htm

Available in Germany and Austria in September.


Yeah, and in October nobody will talk about SeaScam ;)

I hope not.

Anyone know if Matrix Games will be the one publishing?

I'd hate to see the CP lamer and his X1 lackey get away with this.

:nope:

[NZ_Wanderer]

I know we all want this thread to die, and I apologize for bringing it up again, but for those who haven't seen it Combatplane's website now features SeaWolves on it.
http://www.combatplanes.ca/seawolves.htm
Available in Germany and Austria in September.

It's a real pity that Combat planes is doing this, why can't they be like The Gamesman.. - Only after 2 E-Mails The Gamesman here in New Zealand pulled all advertising from his web site and told us he won't be stocking it...

[Abraham]

I know we all want this thread to die, and I apologize for bringing it up again, but for those who haven't seen it Combatplane's website now features SeaWolves on it.

http://www.combatplanes.ca/seawolves.htm

Available in Germany and Austria in September.


Yeah, and in October nobody will talk about SeaScam ;)
We don't want this thread to die, we want the subject to die...

[Beery]

Anyone know if Matrix Games will be the one publishing?

I was reliably informed that one of the people behind Seawolves is none other than Matrix's Webmaster and Director of Art & Production, Marc Schwanebeck. He's also the very same guy who stifled debate about Seawolves on the Matrix forums. Talk about a web of deceit and corruption.

[The Avon Lady]

I was recently thinking that maybe it's time to remove the X1 boycott banner from my sig.

I've changed my mind. This is still an active issue.

[stratege]

Dear community members....


WOHAAA, what a pationnated thread here. I was wondering what was the X1 banning icone on some signature.....

Then, i found this longgggg thread. ( yes, i read all post, then surfed to check the dats collected ) ...


So, after thimkimg back to the allegation of modds robery and so ... this is bringing a clear questions here.

Do we enfreing any regulations by modding the sh3 games ??? Are the modded files illegals, or protected by some GPL/GNU licensing ??

If i refer to actual behaviors, the people fron US army throught their USARMYGAMES are treatening modders ( and more particulary cheaters ) to legal actions ... hu hu hu, uncle sam will tackle you ass if you modd his games ...

Now, getting back to serious matters. Do we, the community, or even ubisoft have a clear positions about the moddingof sh3 ??

Yes, i know, this is quiete a pieces of a question, involving laws, but this is , i beleive, a clear question.










ps: forget the spelling...i am not a native english speaker.

[FesterShinetop]

I was recently thinking that maybe it's time to remove the X1 boycott banner from my sig.

I've changed my mind. This is still an active issue.

I was thinking the same thing, hadn't heard about it in a long time and thought keeping the banner in would just draw attention to it. But like you say it apparantly still IS an issue!

And @ slow_n_ez :rotfl: That is classic man! Did you come up with that yourself? :up: Funny stuff!

[Beery]

Do we enfreing any regulations by modding the sh3 games ??? Are the modded files illegals, or protected by some GPL/GNU licensing ??

As I understand it, mods are protected by the 'fair use' clause of the product license. Mods are not illegal, and these days I think most game developers actively encourage mods, because it's thought that mods increase sales.

As for the community, there is a small minority of people who dislike mods based on an idea that the original (or standard) game is some sort of 'pure' form of the game, but in my view these people are mistaken - no game is released fully formed and perfect. People who use mods know that they enhance games. Mods are here to stay. Besides, no one is ever forced to use a mod.

[stratege]

Hello beery,

yes, i totaly agree with your analysis of "the feelings of developpers", and the facts that mods will stay ...

But, as you may know, the alien people amoungs us, called sometimes lawers or buisiness man, don't act/think/behave like us.

If ever, for example, someone with enought power just stated that sh3 mods are "illegals", are we able to fight back arguing some gpl/gnu/others legal stuff ...


On another hand, could you imagine X1 dealings the exclusive rights to publish mods (the x1 stuff is in fact a big sh3-modded, no talking about the allegations her), and then suitng the community to shut down for copyrights violations. Remember, the are talking about aliens here.

[Beery]

If ever, for example, someone with enought power just stated that sh3 mods are "illegals", are we able to fight back arguing some gpl/gnu/others legal stuff ...

Lawyers may be alien, but they're not stupid. Why would they take money out of their own pockets by launching a lawsuit against mods that work in their own financial interest?

Even if they were stupid enough to do so, they couldn't win. As I said before, mods are covered by 'fair use'.

[stratege]

yes i agree, but if you don't mind, the copy of a musical k7 was "covert by fair used" system...

as was the right to do a backup copy of cd?dvd legally purchased....

Now, i am depraved from my fair used rights .... because i am not able to backup my sh3 disk.


second point here:

- launching a "shut down program" directly aimed at the two or three major community will cost, lets say 100000 $, wich at the size of a corporate is " pipi de chat " (small money). I tought the mpaa spend "only" 500000 $ in order couts to kill the three majors pirats web sites .....
- Now, lets see how many copy of the x1 disk might be sold ....

I don't know the odds, but i beleive there is enought money to be made here !!!


So, why don't we , the full subsim community, do a kind of endorsement (nda) letters to ask for a real and legal gpl way of modding the games....

[Shadow9216]

Stratege- if a company feels their property rights have been infringed, they must first send the offender a notice to "cease and desist". If this does not resolve the matter, they may resort to harsher legal measures. The whole issue with the music industry suing the download sites followed that model- the sites were ordered to stop, and were sued when they didn't. Same thing with the few people who were targetted- they had been ordered (albeit in a broad, general manner) to stop by a certain date, and when ip logs showed they were still downloading, they were sued. in the US, there wasn't one proven case of someone sued who was not informed prior to being served.

Not that I support the music industry, mind you...

If modding is legal under the "fair use" doctrine (and it is), then this community is protected; X1 is NOT protected by the doctrine since this is a commercial venture which fails to meet the fair use standard.

If modding is NOT legal, then it is up to the property owner, in this case UBISOFT, to order ALL modders to cease and desist until such time as they have obtained the necessary licenses.

I have asked before if X1 has UBISOFT's blessing- I can't imagine any other reason for X1 to be continuing to move forward on this project. I see two possibilities:
1) X1 has permission to market a commercial product
2) UBISOFT is choosing not to defend their property rights

If the latter option is correct, it sets a reasonable expectation that any modder could offer a commercial product based on UBISOFT's work- this implicitly includes non-profit and/or freeware mods. Should UBISOFT decide to enforce its claim of ownership and order anyone to cease, they could (if they chose to fight), argue the X1 precedent to justify their actions. At this point UBISOFT would have to prove they had given permission to X1 in order to uphold their claim.

[stratege]

as i say before, i am not sure the fair used is even totaly legal ...

This is like the so-called abandonware software.


As i said before, this was just a rethorical question, and also a personnal tought about aliens amoung us ....

[jasonb885]

Anyone know if Matrix Games will be the one publishing?

I was reliably informed that one of the people behind Seawolves is none other than Matrix's Webmaster and Director of Art & Production, Marc Schwanebeck. He's also the very same guy who stifled debate about Seawolves on the Matrix forums. Talk about a web of deceit and corruption.

That's pretty funny.

It's a sleezebag operation afterall, then. It's a shame I was right when I suggested that may be the case based on no evidence other than Matrix having little interest in distancing itself from the issue.

[joea]

Ahhh no I can't agree 100%. Matrix have published some great stuff, I can't understand why they would do this. After all another of my faveorite wargames, Steel Panthers World at War is published by them and is free and got lots of patches....they publish some great stuff by Greg Grigsby in the realm of strategy games. I am perplexed and pissed. :dead:

[joea]

Anyone know if Matrix Games will be the one publishing?

I was reliably informed that one of the people behind Seawolves is none other than Matrix's Webmaster and Director of Art & Production, Marc Schwanebeck. He's also the very same guy who stifled debate about Seawolves on the Matrix forums. Talk about a web of deceit and corruption.

Are you sure about that Beery?

[Abraham]

Anyone know if Matrix Games will be the one publishing?

I was reliably informed that one of the people behind Seawolves is none other than Matrix's Webmaster and Director of Art & Production, Marc Schwanebeck. He's also the very same guy who stifled debate about Seawolves on the Matrix forums. Talk about a web of deceit and corruption.

Are you sure about that Beery?
Because I'm a Matrix customer (Highway to the Reich/Battles in Normandy) and I'm gonna mail them or post on their forum...

[Beery]

...Now, i am depraved from my fair used rights .... because i am not able to backup my sh3 disk.

You can back up your SH3 disk. Do what I did - buy a second copy. I now have a perfectly legal back up disk.

So, why don't we , the full subsim community, do a kind of endorsement (nda) letters to ask for a real and legal gpl way of modding the games....

We don't need to do a letter writing campaign. We already have a real and legal way to mod. It's called 'fair use'. I've been modding games for 15 years. If it was illegal to mod games I would undoubtedly be in prison right now.

[Beery]

as i say before, i am not sure the fair used is even totaly legal ...

This is like the so-called abandonware software....

It's not the same thing at all. Fair use is a legal clause in a legal document. It protects the rights of users against unfair selling practices. Abandonware is simply the state of a product when it is no longer supported by a developer/publisher.

[Beery]

Anyone know if Matrix Games will be the one publishing?

I was reliably informed that one of the people behind Seawolves is none other than Matrix's Webmaster and Director of Art & Production, Marc Schwanebeck. He's also the very same guy who stifled debate about Seawolves on the Matrix forums. Talk about a web of deceit and corruption.

Are you sure about that Beery?

It's never possible to be 100% sure, but I'm fairly sure. I've seen a copy of the Seawolves file that lists Marc Schwanebeck as part of the Seawolves team, and it was sent to me by a person who has no reason to lie. I never downloaded the Seawolves game from the X1 server myself, so I can't directly corroberate it.

I am also a Matrix customer. I bought Korsun Pocket and their war in the Pacific game and I also bought Highway to the Reich. In my view, the jury is still out as to Matrix Games' responsibility, but I fear that at best Matrix games may be having the wool pulled over its eyes by Schwanebeck & Co. One thing is for sure - if Matrix Games does release Seawolves, they will lose my custom.

[Beery]

Because I'm a Matrix customer (Highway to the Reich/Battles in Normandy) and I'm gonna mail them or post on their forum...

I tried that. The thread was shut down by Marc Schwanebeck.

[HundertzehnGustav]

---------

You can back up your SH3 disk. Do what I did - buy a second copy. I now have a perfectly legal back up disk.
---------

Bah, beery... bith all due respect :D , i think you are trying to NOT understand what he meant to say.

I AM on my second Disk already, girlfriend Fubared my first one ( altho she knows my PC is absolutely NO-GO for her:arrgh!: - dum streetwalker she was)

so had i had a backup, i d have had 50 more bucks by now. :(

and i could have made a backup of the backup, in order to keep playing a sim i PAYD for.

[Beery]

I'm certainly NOT trying to misunderstand him. I simply don't agree with him. If I'm misunderstanding him it's because of his command of the English language. It's certainly not caused by an attempt on my part to cloud the issue, and I must admit I resent the implication. Contrary to your assertion, such an implication conveys no respect whatsoever.

I realise that computer games are hard on those who are on a limited budget, but the harsh reality is that this is a luxury industry, and the manufacturers, recognising this, have constructed their products so that if you want a legal back-up, you have to buy a second disk. If both are destroyed you buy a third, and a fourth or fifth if necessary. The manufacturers recognise that their customer base has the discretionary income to do this. Anyway, if it's a good product you should be happy to support the developer. If you can't afford to spend that much to support a developer, you probably shouldn't be wasting hard-earned money on computer games in the first place. Computer gaming is, after all, a rich person's sport, and we live in a capitalist world, not a socialist utopia.

If people enjoy the game, the last thing they should do is pirate a back-up copy. Simulation games are going through a dry patch at the moment, and good quality games like SH3 deserve our support. If it's a great game, we should do what we can to support it by buying the game when we need to play it. Over the years I've played hundreds of games. When a CD or DVD stops working, I use a disk restorer on it, and if that fails to get it in working order I buy the game again (just as I do with music CDs or videos). Given the hundreds (sometimes thousands) of hours of fun I get from a good game, if I spend much more than $40 on the game, it's money well-spent as far as I'm concerned, even if I have to buy a game over and over again.

[Abraham]

I am also a Matrix customer. I bought Korsun Pocket and their war in the Pacific game and I also bought Highway to the Reich. In my view, the jury is still out as to Matrix Games' responsibility, but I fear that at best Matrix games may be having the wool pulled over its eyes by Schwanebeck & Co. One thing is for sure - if Matrix Games does release Seawolves, they will lose my custom.
Hear, hear!
One more supporter here, Beery. And we'll let them know...

[jasonb885]

...
I realise that computer games are hard on those who are on a limited budget, but the harsh reality is that this is a luxury industry, and the manufacturers, recognising this, have constructed their products so that if you want a legal back-up, you have to buy a second disk. If both are destroyed you buy a third, and a fourth or fifth if necessary. The manufacturers recognise that their customer base has the discretionary income to do this. Anyway, if it's a good product you should be happy to support the developer. If you can't afford to spend that much to support a developer, you probably shouldn't be wasting hard-earned money on computer games in the first place. Computer gaming is, after all, a rich person's sport, and we live in a capitalist world, not a socialist utopia.


Yawn.

That argument makes no sense.

I bought it. I own it. I'm within my legal rights to make a copy. (A corporation need not make it easy or possible to copy, though.)

Offering your rights to corporations on a platter seems like a poor plan to me.

[oRGy]

Computer gaming is, after all, a rich person's sport, and we live in a capitalist world, not a socialist utopia.




Fatalism! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4155936.stm)

[Shadow9216]

Are you sure about that Beery?


It's never possible to be 100% sure, but I'm fairly sure. I've seen a copy of the Seawolves file that lists Marc Schwanebeck as part of the Seawolves team, and it was sent to me by a person who has no reason to lie. I never downloaded the Seawolves game from the X1 server myself, so I can't directly corroberate it.

From my sources, it appears Mr. Schwanebeck is the graphics designer for the Seewolves case design- his company is listed as cogwheel designs http://cogwheeldesigns.com/, which is hosted through www.mustart.de

Whether or not this points to Mr. Schwanebeck's culpability, or Matrix Games' complicity, remains to be see; perhaps Abraham the Lawgiver :P can comment...but it certainly disqualifies Schwanebeck as a disinterested party, and he should be dismissed from any discussion at Matrix Games due to his bias in this matter. The plot thickens...

[stratege]

Hello beery,

yes, you are right, my english skills are no soo good, but i hope people can understant me.....

I am sorry, but with all the respect due to you and your fantastic participation in the community, i must speak out again :

First, sorry, but "fair used" is completely out of the scope in France. We are ruled by some laws called "les droits d'auteurs". Mainly, those laws forbide anyone ( including distributors) to modify/change/add any original creations. So, in french legal terms, modding a games is illegal... but, the authors needs to specificaly suit modders... and they don't do it (most of the time).

Second, lets me explain why i feel unconfortable about the fact i am not able to do a personnal backup of a legally purchased games.
- The so called betamax ruling from the US was used by french lawmakers to allow any individual the right to do a backup copy, or to ask the distributor the posibility to have ONE free reimplacement of the digital media. This right is outruled by distributor, like ubisoft. They charges you a very small amount of money to exchanges the destroyed media, but they charges you ! So the french law is not respected ...

- Second thing (technical stuff here): on the dvd release, directly on the media, there is a markup saying [dvd-disk CompactDisk]. The so call compact disk is a "technical format" (excuse my english here, i wish to say is like a codec or so ...) wich is rules by a technical summary called "white" - "bleue" - "red" book. I am not going to lunch another endless thread about the starforce protective system, but the technical layer of the bleue book is complety outruled by it because the bleue book is specificaly saying two things
- one: the media don't need a particular hardware to be read.
- two: the media don't need a particular hardware to be copied.



Anyway, i respect the fact that you don't agree with me. But, i hope you will agree this is a shame to pay two license just in order to have a backup.

Games one cost you : development+media+others cost. WICH IS FULLY NORMAL.
Backup should cost you only the media prices.

What is abnormal, is the fact you are overcharged here, and that NO MONEY AT ALL is going back to the developpers.

Understant my point here. The prices of the media alone is not 49.99 Euros. Its more like 0.75 euros, buying two disk just make the distrubutors richer.

Don't be fooled by my point here, I totaly respect the fact we must support developpers of good games. But as you say, we don't live in utopia. I am personaly working in the developpment fields of software, and I can swear that when a contract is sign, no matter 100 copy or 200 copy are sell, the developpers team is not going to earn more money than the contract bargain. You have to be lucasart people to get money based on selling volums.

If you search a proof of my assertion, just check what happend to the people of Elixir Studio, the maker of Evil Genius. This game was a hit. But, has Elixir was a kind of "startup" studio, they get just a small contract. Vivendi Universal, the distributor has make a real good money selling the games, while Elixir had to go to bankrupcy and is now dead.



So again, i am not happy to see my son scratching my sh3 disk, i am not happy to have to spend again some money to buy another full game while i just need a media backup, i am not happy to see laws not respected, i am not happy to see technical regulation not respected .......



..... NOW, the final words are maybee the most important here/
I am happy to play sh3, i am happy to share my ideas with you, even if we don't agree on everything....

[Shadow9216]

- The so called betamax ruling from the US was used by french lawmakers to allow any individual the right to do a backup copy, or to ask the distributor the posibility to have ONE free reimplacement of the digital media. This right is outruled by distributor, like ubisoft. They charges you a very small amount of money to exchanges the destroyed media, but they charges you ! So the french law is not respected ...

Mais, UBISOFT c'est une compagnie Francaise, non? (pardonnez-mois, c'est longtemps que j'ai parle avec quelqu'un francophone :D ). Donc, c'est contre la loi de votre pays ca que UBISOFT as fait. Il faut que UBISOFT donne un autre copie pour chaque personne qui as achete cette jeu, si je vous comprends?

[stratege]

Bonjour, si tu le permet, je vais traduire ton arguti et continuer en englais pour que les autres puissent comprendre...


Ok, shadow argued that ubisoft is a french company, and his right.

So, how comes a french company end up not respecting the law of his own country...

Well, quiet easily. They just ask you to contact a support company ... witch end up to be a so called sas company, establish out of france... so, in fact, ubisoft is simply sending you to a non-french company ....

[Beery]

Offering your rights to corporations on a platter seems like a poor plan to me.

If you think supporting good developers is 'offering up our rights on a platter', then maybe you'd rather folks like X1 (the pirates) benefit.

[Beery]

I bought it. I own it. I'm within my legal rights to make a copy.

As I understand it, you're not. You only bought a license to play the game. You don't own the game itself.

[Abraham]

Because I'm a Matrix customer (Highway to the Reich/Battles in Normandy) and I'm gonna mail them or post on their forum...

I tried that. The thread was shut down by Marc Schwanebeck.
Removed or locked?
If it was locked, we could make a few postings one after another with quotes to get the news out and get others involved. I already registered on their forum just for the occasion.

[Shadow9216]

Do you suppose Matrix is aware of their employee's "moonlighting" for X1? Interesting situation....if they are aware that X1 has pirated material (which they no doubt are) and if they are aware that their employee is working for X1, then they are a willing party to the misguided venture that is Seewolves- which makes them just as culpable as X1- is that essentially correct Abraham?

[Beery]

Because I'm a Matrix customer (Highway to the Reich/Battles in Normandy) and I'm gonna mail them or post on their forum...

I tried that. The thread was shut down by Marc Schwanebeck.
Removed or locked?
If it was locked, we could make a few postings one after another with quotes to get the news out and get others involved. I already registered on their forum just for the occasion.

One of the threads was locked, the other was removed.

[jasonb885]

I bought it. I own it. I'm within my legal rights to make a copy.

As I understand it, you're not. You only bought a license to play the game. You don't own the game itself.

Frankly, I don't really care.

It's not yet been demonstrated that an EULA, which you agree to without the ability to even read the terms, is enforcable. It hardly meets the definition of a contract by contract law.

In either case, I live in a practical world where it's simply prudent to make a personal backup of a thing I purchased.

I won't argue that the most effective way of obtaining a fully functional backup, thanks to various copy prevention measures that do not stop real software pirates pumping out duplicates in China, is to puchase a second copy from the original publisher.

Obviously, that doesn't mean everyone can afford to do so or believes its not within his right to make a personal backup, however disfunctional thanks to copy prevention means, that backup may be.

It could be that software publishers know full well that their copy prevention schemes do not stop professional software pirates making 1:1 duplicate copies with commercial duplication equipment. The true goal of copy prevent could be to force the very action Beery has wrapped himself up in like a warm blanket: repurchases due to unintentional damage or destruction.

Gives me warm fuzzies.

[jasonb885]

Offering your rights to corporations on a platter seems like a poor plan to me.

If you think supporting good developers is 'offering up our rights on a platter', then maybe you'd rather folks like X1 (the pirates) benefit.

I fully supported Ubisoft.

They have my $42 or whatever I paid.

But, no, I won't pay them twice for their work because I might want to make a backup. The original purchase prices covers the sum Ubisoft felt it was necessary to recoup to earn the return on investment they desired.

Case closed.

[John Channing]

...hopefully.

JCC

[Nopileo]

Deleted, as it was off-topic. :ping:

[NZ_Wanderer]

** Message deleted by me cause of it being off-topic **

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[jasonb885]

[quote=jasonb885]...

Hmmm well I am going to be forced to go back to v1.0 at some stage soon as my poor SH3 DVD is starting to get scratches and marks on it, and I am just waiting for it to fail..
I paid $99 (NZ) for SH3, and there is no way on this planet I am going to fork out another $99 (I think it actually a bit cheaper now) just so I have a backup (no matter how good it is)

There's always the USB hack.

You have to unplug all your CD/DVD-ROM drives or disable them, then plug in an external USB2 DVD-ROM and run your backup of SH3 from that. It's been confirmed that Starforce will fail 'open' and allow you to proceed.

It's a lot of trouble to go to to play a game you legally bought, though.

[HundertzehnGustav]

I'm certainly NOT trying to misunderstand him. I simply don't agree with him. If I'm misunderstanding him it's because of his command of the English language. It's certainly not caused by an attempt on my part to cloud the issue, and I must admit I resent the implication. Contrary to your assertion, such an implication conveys no respect whatsoever.

I realise that computer games are hard on those who are on a limited budget, but the harsh reality is that this is a luxury industry, and the manufacturers, recognising this, have constructed their products so that if you want a legal back-up, you have to buy a second disk. If both are destroyed you buy a third, and a fourth or fifth if necessary. The manufacturers recognise that their customer base has the discretionary income to do this. Anyway, if it's a good product you should be happy to support the developer. If you can't afford to spend that much to support a developer, you probably shouldn't be wasting hard-earned money on computer games in the first place. Computer gaming is, after all, a rich person's sport, and we live in a capitalist world, not a socialist utopia.

If people enjoy the game, the last thing they should do is pirate a back-up copy. Simulation games are going through a dry patch at the moment, and good quality games like SH3 deserve our support. If it's a great game, we should do what we can to support it by buying the game when we need to play it. Over the years I've played hundreds of games. When a CD or DVD stops working, I use a disk restorer on it, and if that fails to get it in working order I buy the game again (just as I do with music CDs or videos). Given the hundreds (sometimes thousands) of hours of fun I get from a good game, if I spend much more than $40 on the game, it's money well-spent as far as I'm concerned, even if I have to buy a game over and over again.


HMMMMMM.....

Yea, your line of thought is goood, and i dont mind MUCH spending that money. éé of age, no job, and no income++Yet-50 bucks for a second copy of SH3 is better than drinking for weeks because of a depression.

cheaper, cleaner and more interesting too. :D

and dont get an heacdache either.

not to forget that i dont stink, or have an ugly face.
and women diont run away from me++lets buy it as often as required.

:D

[Abraham]

This thread is getting off topic and it worries me.

I have nothing against a debate about protection measures of the industry, but not on this thread, please!
This thread was dedicated to the Seawolves scam and even anounced so by Onkel Neal on the subsim home page.

This thread has been extremely lively a few weeks ago when the comunity became aware that the X 1 Seawolves project intended to make commercial use of mods, provided for the community by our modders. We showed a lot of commitment, quality debate and above all broad solidarity with our modders, and within a week or so our comments filled a dozen pages or more.
The community basically agreed on broad lines that it was highly unethical if not illegal to use the work of modders for the community on a commercial basis, especially without their consent or after misleading them about the Seawolves project.

Therefore this thread is something the subsim community can use as a reference for others, the gamers press for instance.
Let's stay serious and on topic in this thread.
Let's keep it a high leveled discussion and let's follow the actions of X 1 with the necessairy suspicion.
Let's post whenever there is news on Seawolves!

[Shadow9216]

I wondered if you had seen my last post Abraham?
Do you suppose Matrix is aware of their employee's "moonlighting" for X1? Interesting situation....if they are aware that X1 has pirated material (which they no doubt are) and if they are aware that their employee is working for X1, then they are a willing party to the misguided venture that is Seewolves- which makes them just as culpable as X1- is that essentially correct Abraham?

I'd like your thoughts on the matter.

[Abraham]

I wondered if you had seen my last post Abraham?
Do you suppose Matrix is aware of their employee's "moonlighting" for X1? Interesting situation....if they are aware that X1 has pirated material (which they no doubt are) and if they are aware that their employee is working for X1, then they are a willing party to the misguided venture that is Seewolves- which makes them just as culpable as X1- is that essentially correct Abraham?

I'd like your thoughts on the matter.
First of all an excuse, Shadow9216.
You've asked me a question and I haven't responded. I've visited SAIL 2005 in Amsterdam a couple of times the last four days and not been too active on the site.
Second of all a cautio.
I've studied law, but intellectual ownership is not my specialism. I'm more into real estate... So I don't consider myself an expert and I am sure that others with a legal background may know more about this.
Third of all, you pose your question in a way which points in the direction of criminal law when you mention 'culpability'. I may be mistaken here because of the very specialist and narrow definitions of legal terms and the fact that I do not master legal English enough to comprehend all its nuances.

Having said all this I doubt if under the circumstances that you describe Matrix would be as culpable in the criminal sense as X 1.
X 1 is the active party and takes the initiative to misguide.
Then the question has to be raised if X 1 is culpable in a criminal way by selling its DVDs with 'stolen' mods.
I have my doubts about that and I am sure that in The Netherlands a criminal claim filed by either the buyer or the modder(s) would not lead to prosecution. The prosecutor would first want to establish if rights of third parties were being infringed upon, which means a civil case first. Furthermore, prosecutors in Holland hate to be 'used' as they see it in procedures that can be referred to civil courts. They don't want to start a criminal procedure that may backfire if a civil court would give a contrary ruling.
Finally I would foresee a lot of problems gathering proof for a criminal case.

A civil case may have a better chance.
If it can be proved that Matrix is made absolutely aware of the situation that X 1 is in fact using pirated material and ifthey know that one of their employees is actively working for X 1, and if that employee held a position of a certain influence at both Matrix as well as X 1, than Matrix might have no alternative but to take immediate action against its own employee in order to escape civil liability.
Interesting indeed and worth giving a second thought.
From a practical point I would add that Matrix runs graver risks and has more to lose than X 1 so it might be more carefull and could distance itself from X 1 if a serious problem arose.
That may be one reason why Marc Schwanebeck seems to be supressing Beery's postings on the Matrix forum, which means that this could be their weak spot.

Does anybody who have actively participated in this discussion or feels strongly about this scam think that we should inform Matrix just to make sure that they are aware of the problem? I mean not (just) by posting on their forum, but sending then an e-mail or even a letter by registerd mail.
Personally I think our modders are worth the effort.
Anybody's thoughts please...

[NZ_Wanderer]

I haven't really been posting actively , but I feel that Matrix hi-up's (people in charge) should be informed about this whole thing just incase they do not know about it...

[The Avon Lady]

I haven't really been posting actively , but I feel that Matrix hi-up's (people in charge) should be informed about this whole thing just incase they do not know about it...
Not only are they informed, they are involved.

Read back a few pages.

[Shadow9216]

Thanks for your input Abraham- I knew you'd have something useful to say. :up:

I agree with you about formally presenting Matrix with all the evidence we have collected so far- this does not have to be done in an adversarial fashion, we can simply present them with the facts we have collected about X1's use of mods, Schwanebeck's involvement with the DVD, his supression of threads at Matrix, etc. and ask them to clarify their position- done in this manner, it allows them the "out" of disavowing their employee's action, if they were aware of it; they may be completely innocent (sorry, keep using criminal terms :roll: - I'll work on it :P ) and this would provide them the grounds they would need to take action.

Finally, it gives us a clear indication which way the wind is blowing over there. If they choose to ignore us and hope we'll go away, or if they come over to the attack as Schwanebeck did, we'll have an answer, of sorts.

[Abraham]

Thanks for your nice compliment, Shadow9216.

Let's wait one more day or so for some more reactions. I would like to get some imput from Terrapin, Jasonb885, Beery, perhaps John Channing and others about this. Everybody who takes an intrest in this matter should feel free to give us his/here thoughts...

Then one of us should draft a letter, as you said presenting the case in a non-adversarial way and inquiring after Matrix' position. We should make clear that the community is troubled by the steps that X 1 is taking. I further think we can refer to the two threads on this forum.

I feel that as many of us should sign this letter, in order to make an impression. It should be clear that it is not 'just' an action of some frustrated modders but a letter based on broad support within the community, modders and non-modders alike.

Since such a letter could possibly have a strong 'subsim.com-smell' I feel that we should inform Neal Stevens about this plan in an early stage and perhaps even ask his OK for the draft. If he would advise us against a letter (more or less) on behalf of the community, the letter could be written by some of us on a personal basis, without strong references to subsim.com.

Just some thoughts...

[Shadow9216]

Works for me. I'd like to hear from the others as well.

In the meantime...

I know several people downloaded the alleged "beta" version of Seewolves from X-1's server; does anyone have a legitimate copy provided to them by X1 themselves? Not one they "helped themselves" to?

I ask because it would be expected for anyone with something to hide/lose at Matrix to claim this was either a) "tainted" evidence, as it was acquired illegally- referring to criminal law again, such evidence would most likely be ruled inadmissible- or b) "manufactured" evidence, created by someone here with an axe to grind. If someone was freely provided a copy of the Seewolves package and would be willing to (essentially) affirm that in an affidavit (I exaggerate a bit), it makes it harder for X1 and/or Matrix to cry "foul"

...thoughts?

[terrapin]

Well,

I may repeat myself: X1's 'Seascam' project will soon be history. After some news expected to be out in...let's say...4-6 weeks no one will buy it...

I'd appreciate a letter to Matrixgames anyway...

And: No community member has a current, actual build of 'Seascam', as X1 holds this thing still in the 'production (hmmm...? ) stage.

[Abraham]

Terrapins OK for a letter to Matrix is in. Let's wait a little bit for some others.

And even if Terrapin is right and there will be some news in a couple of weeks that will dissuade customers to buy it, I still think it's a good idea to write this letter, just to make sure that anybody with wicked plans will know that the community will protect its modders...
It may prevent other 'irregularities'...

[Gizzmoe]

Abe, why don´t you open a new thread where people can put in their names and show their support for such letter? Then you can later create a list with all names and use them to sign the email to Matrixgames.

[Abraham]

Might be a good idea when the draft of the letter is finished, but first I want to have a few more opinions in - b.t.w. are you with us? - and then I want to communicate about this with Neal.

I think we should do this step by step.

[Gizzmoe]

b.t.w. are you with us?

Generally yes. But that depends on the content of the letter, if I don´t like it I´m of course not going to sign it. It should only contain facts and not rumours or speculations about the final product.

[joea]

Yup agree with Gizzmoe, given a good letter though, I'll sign it. Anyone here who had bought games from Matrix in the past should definately sign. I didn't , got their free game but still will sign. :lol:

[John Channing]

Well.. the only thing I would add is that, if there is any reference at all to Subsim.com then Neal has to have the final approval on it. Nobody has the right to speak on behalf of Subsim.com but Neal.

One other thing does occur to me.

Before anything as drastic as putting your signature to a letter of this sort is contemplated everybody better be as sure as hell that they have all of their fact exactly correct. I have seen some facts, but mostly asssumptions in this thread and going forward in this manner based upon assumptions is very very dangerous.

If you have any doubts about how dangerous it could be, look up the definition of libel.

JCC

[Abraham]

Well.. the only thing I would add is that, if there is any reference at all to Subsim.com then Neal has to have the final approval on it. Nobody has the right to speak on behalf of Subsim.com but Neal.

One other thing does occur to me.

Before anything as drastic as putting your signature to a letter of this sort is contemplated everybody better be as sure as hell that they have all of their fact exactly correct. I have seen some facts, but mostly asssumptions in this thread and going forward in this manner based upon assumptions is very very dangerous.

If you have any doubts about how dangerous it could be, look up the definition of libel.

JCC
Thanks for your cautious words, John.
In my view, and as indicated by Shadow9216, this letter should:
1. be matter of fact;
2. express our worries about the possible comercial of the work of our modderswithout their explicit consent;
3. ask for a clarification of Matrix's position given the reactions of Marc Schwanebeck and their administrator on their own forum;
4. refrain from accusing, flaming or assumptions.

The goal should be noting more than make sure that Matrix gets the picture. After that, it's theirown responsability, as far asIam concerned.

As I indicated before, Neal sould be consulted about this and if it would be an official subsim letter - which is more then I expect - he would have to give final approval.

Anyway, I can't imagine myself signing on a letter that involves subsim.com without Neals approval.
The alternative would be a letter á titre personnel or on behalf of some troubled Matrix customers (like me).
But I think it would be best to sent a letter signed by 10-20 (or even more) subsim.commers showing our solidarity with our modders, and that with Neals approval.

We should also be fully aware - but I realise I'm talking to sub captains who know about Enigma - that this is an open forum and we should assume that Marc, Steffen or whomever is monitoring our deliberations.
Not that I care...

[Gizzmoe]

I went to Matrixgames.com and I can´t find anything about Seawolves. Not under "Coming Soon" and also not under "All Games / X1 Software". Am I blind??? :hmm:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Unfortunately its still there Gizzmoe. :hulk:

I won't post the link and help feed those heretics.

I hope they rust in pieces!

Hopefully new SH3 U-Boat captains will find their way here first.

[Elder-Pirate]

Well it sure is hidden then for I looked all over the site and nadda,zip,nothing.

This was very empty on the subject:
Press Releases, News and Events from Matrix

Seems like they are a little worried maybe for if it is there on their site why would they make it so hard to find ? :-?

Edit: Scratch that for I found their Logo under: Developers Working With Us and it leads to the Mods. :stare:

But that really dosn't mean anything either because X1 has a few more Mods/Games out there other than SH3, so back to square one. :hmm:





................Somethings Afoot here Watson............. ;)

[Shadow9216]

"A time for deeds, not words..."
Can't remember where that's from...anyway:

John, your warning is a potent reminder. I think Abraham and I intend(ed) from the beginning to present a statement of fact to Matrix, and ask them to comment on these facts.

To all modders, well-wishers, etc:
If you would like to PM me factual accounts of your dealings with X1 and/or Seewolves, I will try to put them into some sort of cogent presentation, properly documented and attributed where appropriate, which I will them submit for approval. Please forward copies of e-mails. PMs, etc, include dates when available. References to X1 material appearing in the press would also be helpful.

I realize much of this is available in this thread, but as John says- there's a lot of supposition and nuancing; I need actual factual accounts. Those of you who have mods which were used, I'd love to hear from you.

If I recall correctly, X1 (one of their minions) claimed after the breach that the purloined copy was a "beta" version...but I thought I recalled the individual saying that they had OFFERED a beta version to some people? Specifically, the file which mentions Marc Schwaneburg's involvement with the project. ANYONE having a legitimate copy of the X1 files, or a legally defensible reason for having a copy, please let me know.

John, Neal, et al. after I complete this, I'll provide you an advance copy so you can preview it and determine if you see any problems, and voice your concerns. I promise this will be a straightforward presentation of FACT, not personal invective, and will merely serve documented proof to Matrix games with an invitation to state their company's position on the matter.

If I don't feel that I have enough material to warrant a letter, I'll turn over what I have to this forum and you guys can decide what you want to do- for this to have any effect it needs to be properly researched, documented, and attributed. Abraham, I'd also like your help when I get everything assembled.

I trust I'm not stepping on anyone's toes with this? I see many people calling for action, so I figured I'd step up to the plate. I believe my postings show my capacity for rational discourse and dispassionate evaluation of evidence. If, however, anyone objects, I will gladly cease my efforts.

If it's not too much to ask, can we set a deadline for submission of evidence to, say, the end of the month? The fall semester's starting and I'm teaching 3 classes in addition to my regular job- not much time to devote to such things :D

[Nopileo]

I would just like to express my best wishes to Shadow9216 and anyone else who prepares to go to all this effort on their free time to 'solve' this matter. You all seem to be very intelligent and competent, and the fact that you're taking the time to work with this in addition to your probably very busy schedule at the office(?) is admirable.

Good luck on your voyage! :up:

[Wulfmann]

I am breaking my self imposed exile for what I believe is beneficial to the SH3 community.
IMO, to approach Matrix with accusations of things modders created; that X-1 was going to steal because it was on a beta working copy of potential things considered for this project which was illegally obtained and not meant for publication might not cast you in anything but a hostile inaccurate light.
Therefore, I am suggesting you use the X-1 promo material and line by line explain why what will be in their released version is stolen, pirated or somehow wrongfully obtained and therefore not be allowed to be published.
If X-1 contends it was going to also include mods offered for free in other places but once it was asked not to has so complied and the material they themselves made is what will be released, if that is the case. Then it would seem like you do not know what you are talking about.
Be sure your accusations can be verified as any claim about mods that will not be used are irrelevant in any case and your impairing Seawolves from releasing their own material, if it is their own, would, could, might, find all participating in a liable situation that could lead to your compensating X-1 for any deemed loss they unfairly suffer..
This community made a strong point to X-1 and got the “extra” material removed but to say Seawolves has no right to make mods and sell them impairs free commerce and doing so might, just might not be in the interest of anyone bent on winning a war that is already long over.
Might it not be wise to use this and show where X-1 has done something warranting action against publishing?

Wulfmann

Here is the list (from the link posted by Syxx_Killer on page 18)


SeaWolves for Silent Hunter 3
SeaWolves for Silent Hunter 3 is designed to provide a quota of single missions in the Pacific as well as a deeper and more active campaign environment for the U-boat commander. The expansion includes:
• more than fifty new cities and harbors for the SH3 world
• new detail around existing cities, including industry, searchlights, and land defences
• new harbor activity including stationary ships that change over the course of the war
• new barriers, minefields and antisubmarine nets
• an 18 mission campaign for the American GATO class in the Pacific
• four new missions for the Type IXD, and four new multiplayer missions
• greatly expanded shipping activity, both random and scripted. This includes fishing and commercial traffic as well as military traffic and patrols
• add specific air strikes, such as against U-boat pens and German bases
• add specific activity related to campaigns like D-Day
• add specific activity of historical hunters like the Tirpitz , Bismarck, Prinz Eugen, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau
• Add resupply capability for the Atlantic campaign in 1942-43
• Expanded radio log messages for 1938-1942
• Start a career with Type XXI in April, 1944
• Reduced effects of fatigue for the crew (optional installation)
In addition, the campaign engine has been tweaked for reduced air strike activity. With the 1.4b patch the air activity becomes extremely annoying in some areas. General enhancements to the game include:
• Improved clouds
• New interior graphics for all U-boats
• Uniform enhancements
• Hi resolution skins on the Type VII and Type IXD, including camoflage options
• Hi resolution harbors
• An improved damage model for U-boats
• Reduced sonar accuracy, realistic limits for destroyers
• Reduced night vision acuity for all enemies
• Added ability to cruise with decks awash for Type VII and Type IX (faster dive time)
• Periscope and UZO mod for a black out look

[Razman23]

Alpo called.

They want their dead horse back.

[Reece]

At the beginning of this thread mention is made of free downloads for "Seawolves" is this a reference to mods in general or the actual pirated version by X1, a bit lazy to read through 20 pages of threads. :dead:
Thanks.

Woops, Hope you didn't read this thread before I edited it Syxx_Killer?, talk about foot-in-mouth disease. :88)
I should have read the whole post first before making comments, someone kick my ass please. :oops:

[Beery]

I haven't really been posting actively , but I feel that Matrix hi-up's (people in charge) should be informed about this whole thing just incase they do not know about it...

Matrix management are already aware of the issue, but I'm not too optimistic. A high-level member of the Matrix staff (Marc Schwanebeck - a guy who has proved to me that he's a very dishonourable character) is also one of the guys who worked on SeaWolves, so it would be relatively easy for him to pull the wool over the eyes of the Matrix Games management team. The other thing is that this Marc Schwanebeck character is also a moderator at the Matrix forums, and it's amazing how often posts about X1 and SeaWolves get locked or deleted. So I would advise anyone who wants to contact the Matrix Games staff to do so directly. Posting on the forums probably won't do much good.

[joea]

At the beginning of this thread mention is made of free downloads for "Seawolves" is this a reference to mods in general or the actual pirated version by X1, a bit lazy to read through 20 pages of threads. :dead:
Thanks.

Just read the thread above, was the X1 seawolves created or pirated by Syxx_Killer? I knew he was not impressed by the negative feedback he got when mentioning a CD of accumulated mods into a single mod for sale of $5 + post, but certainl wouldn't have thought he would go this far. :shifty:
Hmmm, don't think I want a pirate copy of the pirate copy now! :doh:

Wooah you better read the whole thread then. Syxx_Killer had nothing to do with this "project"

[Syxx_Killer]

HHeelloo. How did I get associated with this thing? I won't have anything to do with this mod.

Woops, Hope you didn't read this thread before I edited it Syxx_Killer?

I can read it in the quote, though. ;) :P :lol:

[Abraham]

... Abraham, I'd also like your help when I get everything assembled...
I'm your man (again) * cough*
:D
I think I am on one line again with you and I'll be happy to work something out with you. Send me a p.m. when you need me.

@ Nopileo:
I'm happy to do something in return for our modders.

@ Shadow9216:
By now I am convinced that there is enough positive respons to proceed with making a draft.

@ Wulfmann:
I'm happy that you broke your self-imposted exile. There is nothing against a dissenting opinion.
But this time we agree totally. As far as I am concerned there will be no "accusations of things modders created; that X-1 was going to steal."
My idea when I restarte this thread was to make Matrix aware on behalf of some or many subsim.commers that there might be a problem with Seawolves / X 1 and to present them the facts as we know them.
I don't think that we should tell Matrix how to react, that's their responsability.
Personally I also think that if Matrix would not answer us or give us a negative answer and would support the Seawolves / X 1 project, the community should not react anymore. In my view this should be a "one ping only" action, just to make sure that Matrix hears us..
It would then be everybodies personal responsability to decide to be mad, protest, send mails, boycott the product or let the thing just go...

@ Beery:
Of course this letter should be sent directly at Matrix. And since it really has no other goal then to make Matrix officially aware of our concerns, it might be wise not to post it at their forum. Leaves them more options open for their reaction.
But I think Shadow9216 and I should work the details of the draft out and then present our action to Neal and the community, probably on a special thread simultaniously on several forums.
Then there should be a second round of discussions, not like this one about sending a notification or not, but about the specific content of our draft.
That part is gonna be fun for Shadow and me...
:D

@ John Channing and all:
1. I hope you see that we intend to proceed very carefully and will restrain from anything that might be seen as accusations.
2. We'll consult Neal & the whole community all the way on this and/or a new forum, because we need broad support from you all. Your initial reactions on our community.
3. I fully agree with JCC that if we make any reference to the Subsim.com site we'll need Neal's approval.

Anything else and I would be out of this project.

In the meantime I suggest that you, John, make this thread a sticky, because it's easier for the community to react and we'll need your feedback...