[REL] Natural Sinking Mechanics

[WernerSobe]

NATURAL SINKING MECHANICS

Latest Version 4.0 (29.01.2008)

ATTENTION: THIS WORKS ONLY ON 1.4. DONT USE TOGETHER WITH U-BOAT ADDON IT WILL CAUSE PROBLEMS I PROMISE
by Werner Sobe


http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/8295/nsm4bgqq8.jpg




What is NSM?








Natural Sinking Mechanics will greatly increase your silent hunter expirience by making the ships sink in a more natural way. Entire damage system has been reworked. Ships will no longer sink by hitpoints but only by physical action, such is flooding and losing bouyancy or balance. The new damage system is explained in support pdf included to the mod, it is a good idea to find out how it works. This is a realism mod. The ship sinking rates and the different sinking behaviers has been tweaked as much accurate to historical records as possible. Expect all ships sink much slower then they do in stock game. The sinking rate depends on where the ship has been damaged. Sometimes you will see ships sinking in a matter of seconds and sometimes they will take hours (but that being rare).










What is new?



NSM4 is a complete rewamp. It has new compartment layouts for every ship (even sampans) and a completely new zones.cfg that is much more compatible with other mods. There are two new key features:





1. The new keel damage. For the first time torpedo depth becomes a factor. Now you can effectively use the vacuum effect when a torpedo explodes under the ship. You can now literely break the neck of the vessel with a single well placed shot. It is no longer random. If you want to find out how it works, and how to set up your torpedoes read the support pdf included to the mod.



2. There is a completely new balance between different ships. If you have been using previous versions of NSM you will find that your torpedoes are stronger but less reliable. You will need less hits to sink something and the ships are much better balanced agains each other.





Installation
There is a Classic and a Light version. You only need to install one of them. The Light version has increased sinkrates by 30%. The mod is JSGME ready.





1. Extract all files to ..\Silent Hunter 4\MODS\ directory


2. Start generic mod enabler and activate NSM4. Overwrite all conflicts.



for detailed information, FAQ, compability and installation order see support pdf included.


DOWNLOAD NSM: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1306



also recomended for realism friends:



DOWNLOAD REALISTIC TORPEDO MALFUNCTION MOD FOR NSM: http://files.filefront.com/NSM4+Realistic+Torpedo+Maszip/;9595390;/fileinfo.html

[Killer-Carrot]

Can´t wait to try it. When i press download on the filefront page it takes me to the front page so the link is not working.
Thanks for the mod anyway ;):p

[CaptainCox]

CHEERS for this brilliant MOD!
Looks real good this.
EDIT: Yep something is up with that link!

[WernerSobe]

hm works for me. well try now...

[602Sqn_Puff]

When I click download now it takes me to the main front page of Filefront

[WernerSobe]

ah yes i see.

I guess its because they check the new files for porn i.e. before you can download them.

[ubik]

My first post here, first of all, let me say thank you for an excellent mod that goes great with TM 1.5.


Now for the questions:

Will explosive rounds still be usable even if not penetrating the armour?

Is flamability considered in the damage model?

What are the present effects of a ship on fire? Pure eyecandy or can we expect some kind of continual damage to the object?

Is it possible for the damage control parties to put out a fire?



Thanks again for the hard work!

1. no, the shell must pass the hull or it does no damage. Its not finished yet i will fix it so the HE shells will penetrate all merchants.

2. not sure what you mean. But yes ships will catch on fire.

3. no its just an animated effect it doesnt add more damage over time. To be honest i doubt that its possible with sh4, anyway maybe there is a workaround that i dont know about but i think i can see the entire picture of the damage system already (i even dream of hex codes at night and know what they mean) and i havent found a way for damage over time.

4. fires will disappear on their own after a while.


Thanks for clarifying!

Anyway, since the HE rounds have a lesser penetration capability than the AP rounds will here be any instances where they are "better" to be used?

[CaptainCox]

Could be my connection at the mo, but is just sits there (blank page) loading...
Will try again in a min or 2.
Same when i try to load my stuff on FF...like I said will wait a bit.

[602Sqn_Puff]

Thanks for clarifying..looking forward to thie mod :)

[WernerSobe]

Anyway, since the HE rounds have a lesser penetration capability than the AP rounds will here be any instances where they are "better" to be used?

sure ill try to explain.

everytime you hit a ship (with anything) it must first pass the hull armor. The damage will only be applied if you can defeat the armor. HE rounds basicly do more damage but cannot penetrate thick armor. So they are useless agains strong armored ships but they are better agains weak targets. AP on the other hand can penetrate thick armor, but will do less damage. So they are good agains strong armored targets and not "that" good agains weak targets.

[Canonicus]

When I click download now it takes me to the main front page of Filefront

I get the same result...please look in to this.

[ubik]

Anyway, since the HE rounds have a lesser penetration capability than the AP rounds will here be any instances where they are "better" to be used?

sure ill try to explain.

everytime you hit a ship (with anything) it must first pass the hull armor. The damage will only be applied if you can defeat the armor. HE rounds basicly do more damage but cannot penetrate thick armor. So they are useless agains strong armored ships but they are better agains weak targets. AP on the other hand can penetrate thick armor, but will do less damage. So they are good agains strong armored targets and not "that" good agains weak targets.



Ok Werner, thanks for the info!

Being a modder myself (for a strategy game, not a simulation) I really value your dedication and commitment to something like this. Thank you for your time!

[WernerSobe]

download should work now pls confirm

[JackAubrey]

download should work now pls confirm

I click on download and get a "NSM30.zip" File which cannot be opened by doubleclicking. Winzip tells me the file is corrupt. Filesize is 175kb.
When opened with Winrar the NSM30.zip contains a compressed folder named:
"Programator simplu pentru PIC si EEPROM". I don´t speak that language and i do not need a tutorial on how to build an EEPROM Programmer, i want the mod! :rotfl:

I tried several times to download directly from your link, using the download button. And i tried to click on the file info first and download from there. Both times the same. I only get the "Programator" thing.

[CaptainCox]

Hm...Download works but I get a file called Programator simplu pentru PIC si EEPROM its packed in a file called NSM 30 but :p
Lucky Jack beat me to it ;)

[JackAubrey]

but Lucky Jack beat me to it ;) That´s why they call me "Lucky". It´s true when it comes to entering ships, but with downloading mods my luck seems to run out. Maybe i should ask Stephen M. :D

It´s the first time i have a problem downloading from there. All the other versions worked fine.

I tried clearing the Browser Cache and Cookies but it stays the same.

[jaketoox]

...not working...first got some different file and after that got corrupt or damaged file....:damn:

[Q3ark]

but Lucky Jack beat me to it ;) That´s why they call me "Lucky". It´s true when it comes to entering ships, but with downloading mods my luck seems to run out. Maybe i should ask Stephen M. :D

It´s the first time i have a problem downloading from there. All the other versions worked fine.

I tried clearing the Browser Cache and Cookies but it stays the same.

I am having the same problems. Looks like the wrong file was uploaded.:oops:

[Rockin Robbins]

I had already deleted 2.6 and got the Programator simplu pentru PIC si EEPROM. Yuk. Luckily I hadn't deleted the 2.6 zip file. I'll check back later.

[OmegaMan]

Hello. The link does not work.
Thanks

[Bluesub 6]

download should work now pls confirm
I click on download and get a "NSM30.zip" File which cannot be opened by doubleclicking. Winzip tells me the file is corrupt. Filesize is 175kb.
When opened with Winrar the NSM30.zip contains a compressed folder named:
"Programator simplu pentru PIC si EEPROM". I don´t speak that language and i do not need a tutorial on how to build an EEPROM Programmer, i want the mod! :rotfl:

I tried several times to download directly from your link, using the download button. And i tried to click on the file info first and download from there. Both times the same. I only get the "Programator" thing.
That´s Romanian language and a EEPROM Programmer (Hardware description).
But I want the MOD!:cry:

[AVGWarhawk]

Yeah, something really strange here. I get a diagram of a circuit board or something. I got to your filefront spot and it is there for downloading but it sure is not the sinking mod.:oops:

[Church SUBSIM]

download should work now pls confirm
I click on download and get a "NSM30.zip" File which cannot be opened by doubleclicking. Winzip tells me the file is corrupt. Filesize is 175kb.
When opened with Winrar the NSM30.zip contains a compressed folder named:
"Programator simplu pentru PIC si EEPROM". I don´t speak that language and i do not need a tutorial on how to build an EEPROM Programmer, i want the mod! :rotfl:

I tried several times to download directly from your link, using the download button. And i tried to click on the file info first and download from there. Both times the same. I only get the "Programator" thing.

This is the same thing I get ... really looking forward to this release! Thanks for the detailed effort you put into it ... makes everyones experience 1000% better when playing SHIV!

Church

[Canonicus]

Same result here, too :cry:

Hope this will be fixed soon.... as this is a MUST HAVE mod.

[AVGWarhawk]

Same result here, too :cry:

Hope this will be fixed soon.... as this is a MUST HAVE mod.

No question about it!!! I very selective of the mods I use and the reading on the OP has me very interested.:yep:

[jdkbph]

Brilliant stuff Werner!

Enjoyed your video tutorials as well.


JD

[sneekyzeke]

Download works for me; preparing to install. BTW, you modders are slipping lately.
Why, just yesterday I actually completed 1/2 of the 1st mission of the 89th campaign I've started this week before quitting, installing new mods, and repeating
ad nauseum.:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Thanx Werner!

[castorp345]

Download works for me;
really!?
certainly the link works, and it lets you dload a 495.32kb file that's called NSM3.0...
but the contents seem to be an eprom tutorial, unless you seem to know something the rest of us don't?
:doh:

[John Channing]

The download works fine, but the file you receive seems to be incorrect.

I would strongly advise waiting until Werner checks it out.

JCC

[castorp345]

I would strongly advise waiting until Werner checks it out.

unless, of course, you're into building eproms... :p

[billko]

Can't wait to downlaod this completely re-vamped work of art! Thanks for such an incredible mod!

Now go have a couple of beers and call it a day. ;)

Bill

[Rattail]

Thanks Werner!

However:
I also get the "Programator simplu pentru PIC si EEPROM" file. I then saw that the file was uploaded by "f4ufly (http://hosted.filefront.com/f4ufly)". So I clicked the link to f4ufly (http://hosted.filefront.com/f4ufly), saw a whole lot of NSM files, assumed it was your stuff, so I downloaded NSM30 from there. Still only get the same 175k file listed above... :cry: PLUS it says it's a bad zip file. :down:

HELP...?

[Rattail]

Download works for me; preparing to install. BTW, you modders are slipping lately.
Why, just yesterday I actually completed 1/2 of the 1st mission of the 89th campaign I've started this week before quitting, installing new mods, and repeating
ad nauseum.:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Thanx Werner!

Yo! Sneekyzeke! Did it really work for you? Tell us how? Please?? :hmm:

[sneekyzeke]

I would strongly advise waiting until Werner checks it out.

unless, of course, you're into building eproms... :p

Oops! Errrr, building e-whos? Nyuk Nyuk.:rotfl: Well, i'm 2 for 2 this morning. Think I'll just go back to bed.

[Digital_Trucker]

It's Christmas in August and April Fools Day all rolled into one!:damn:

:rock: Seriously, thanks for all the excellent work WernerSobe. I'll be sitting on my hands waiting for the download problem to be solved. I can't wait to get this into my MODS folder!

[Marko_Ramius]

Can't wait to download this so promising mod too :rock: ( I had the Eprom file as well..)



A word on your tutorial videos : I love them, i learn a lot with them :up:

[WernerSobe]

hmpf im sorry for that i dont know whats going on with filefront. I ve definely uploaded the right file. Ill check out for alternative host.

[cali03boss]

yea doesn't work.

[Killer-Carrot]

how about speedyshare.com for a temporary host ?

[WernerSobe]

ok guys try now and confirm the download is working and its a correct file please.

I guess there was already another file called nsm30 i dont know...

[602Sqn_Puff]

Yep...worked for me :) Many thanks mate!

[Misfit138]

Got the correct file now. Thanks! :)

[billko]

ok guys try now and confirm the download is working and its a correct file please.

I guess there was already another file called nsm30 i dont know...

Man, that's pretty primitive then... that means ALL the files just sit around in one huge pool and that each user doesn't have their own folder or something, and if you have a file that happens to be named the same as somebody else's file, it gets overwritten??? That's pretty weak...

Anyway, it works now, and than you so much for monitoring the thread so closely and taking care of the problem!

Now for some more sleepless nights... ;)

Bill

[Bando]

Works great :up:

Thanks a LOT for all your work :up:

[sneekyzeke]

(blinks back tears) *sniff* o could it be true at long last? Seriously, I'm gonna have to start "modders anonymous" if I keep this up. I have to have my daily mod fix or I get the shakes! WernerSobe, at your convenience, could you please share your graphics settings from the in-game page with me sometime? Your screenies look awesome and I just want to be sure I'm getting the full effect. I can always change my graphics card setting if need be. Thanks much, Zeke.

[cdrsubron7]

Thanks for all your efforts, WernerSoper. :up:



D/l working now. :rock:

[CaptainCox]

YAY! way to go :)

[mgbmike]

Many many thanks Werner. Now take a break, at least for a little while. :rock:

[Digital_Trucker]

Yeeeeeeeeeeehah! It's Christmas again! Muchos thanko!:up:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Nice work WS:up:


RDP

[Canonicus]

Downloaded correct file.... works just fine....
Now!.....we got the REAL deal! :rock:

Thanks WS...hope you get your t-shirt, real soon

[tater]

Very nicely done.

I did the sample mission, and had a very wide variety of sinking. The CA went down with 1 fish, the CV took a few. I let the BB sit for a day with 2 holes, she had a heavy list but went on---I bet in rougher seas she might have sunk, actually.

Werner, in your experiments, do you find that the crew quality matters? You'd think a higher AI skill might = better damage control, but I don't know if that is the case or not, I've never tested.

BTW, what exact changes were made to torpedo.sim? I'd like to incorporate them into the hardcore torpedo mod, it's just too easy without a 70% failure rate, lol ;)

EDIT: I keep forgetting I have the coolest tool in the world now, S3D! Is the -3000 impulse the only change?


tater

[WernerSobe]

Very nicely done.

I did the sample mission, and had a very wide variety of sinking. The CA went down with 1 fish, the CV took a few. I let the BB sit for a day with 2 holes, she had a heavy list but went on---I bet in rougher seas she might have sunk, actually.

Werner, in your experiments, do you find that the crew quality matters? You'd think a higher AI skill might = better damage control, but I don't know if that is the case or not, I've never tested.

BTW, what exact changes were made to torpedo.sim? I'd like to incorporate them into the hardcore torpedo mod, it's just too easy without a 70% failure rate, lol ;)

tater

the reversed impulse is in that file. see detailed changelog.

[tater]

I realized a dumb question after I asked, lol.

BTW:

:rock:

[AVGWarhawk]

Ok, I got the files. I have a choice of two to use. Classic and Light. What is the difference?

[WernerSobe]

35% faster sink rates in light version. Well read the readme :-).

Anyway the sinking rates are also increased in classic version if you compare it to 2.6

[Florida Sailor]

WOW!:o

Great piece of work.
Thank you!

[AVGWarhawk]

35% faster sink rates in light version. Well read the readme :-).

Anyway the sinking rates are also increased in classic version if you compare it to 2.6

I did not see that in the readme.;) So is it 35% faster sinking than the classic version?

[WernerSobe]

yes. faster meaning they will flood faster but the damage system remains.

[AVGWarhawk]

Great! This is the one I selected. Let see how it goes and many thanks for working on this mod. Nice realistic addition. :rock:

[Misfit138]

Torpedo hardcore mod now compatible with NSM3

http://files.filefront.com/NSM3+hardcore+torpedo+modzip/;8297585;;/fileinfo.html

[tater]

Sunk a few ships.

:rock:


Oh yeah, this is a keeper.

Hit a DD that was running back to the TF (I could see the hazy form of a CV in the distance, maybe a CVE, and a Takao CA I think. No way I could catch them, and the DDs had kept me down--I dodged towards the TF, and 2 DDs were pounding water behind me (where I had been). They gave up and came back to TF. So I put one on his nose at minimum range., he keeps going at high speed. I watch him going away, and I notice he is down at the bow... he slowed after a while as his screws came out of the water, and down he went.

:D

tater

[billko]

Sunk a few ships.

:rock:


Oh yeah, this is a keeper.

Hit a DD that was running back to the TF (I could see the hazy form of a CV in the distance, maybe a CVE, and a Takao CA I think. No way I could catch them, and the DDs had kept me down--I dodged towards the TF, and 2 DDs were pounding water behind me (where I had been). They gave up and came back to TF. So I put one on his nose at minimum range., he keeps going at high speed. I watch him going away, and I notice he is down at the bow... he slowed after a while as his screws came out of the water, and down he went.

:D

tater

Way cool, tater! :)

Bill

[nattydread]

Do we still need the Taihosun maru CTD fix for this?

[tater]

No, this mod fixes the problem directly.

tater

[Rattail]

Wernersole for president!!! :rock:Thanks!!:rotfl::rotfl:

[nattydread]

oh happy day!!

[Tobus]

Torpedo harcore mod now compatible with NSM3

http://files.filefront.com/NSM3+hardcore+torpedo+modzip/;8297585;;/fileinfo.html

What exactly does this do? I can't find it in the incorporated readme.

[Misfit138]

Torpedo harcore mod now compatible with NSM3

http://files.filefront.com/NSM3+hardcore+torpedo+modzip/;8297585;;/fileinfo.html

What exactly does this do? I can't find it in the incorporated readme.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=113031&highlight=torpedo+hardcore

[Tobus]

Thanks Misfit! Don't think I'll use it though, my manual targeting is frustrating me enough as is :)

[leovampire]

I will be checking this out this week!

[tater]

Nothing make youfeel the love for BuOrd like finding a TF moving fast---towards you---firing every single tube, and having your only couple hits be duds.

Gotta love the hardcore torpedo mod.

[Seaman_Hornsby]

Christmas in August! Thanks for all the hard work, WernerSobe! I've been using 2.6 so I'm looking forward to testing the new and improved 3.0! :up:

Too bad I have to pine away the day at work until I can get home and try it out. :cry:

[Rockin Robbins]

I've just finished my first cruise with version 2.6. It was so much fun I risked my crew's lives hanging around to see how each ship sank in a totally individual way! I ended up using spread angles to try to sink ships by the bow, by the stern and rolling them over.

I noticed that much of the time there was no visible hole in the ship, however it sank like one was there. I didn't think ships took too much time to sink. I loved it.

Now 3.0 is out. I'm salivating here, helpless at work seeing that the online file is correct now. No light version for me though. I've learned to trust your judgment from the excellent version 2.6. Natural Sinking Mechanics is monsterously good!

[Schultzy]

Tried it, loved it, keeping it!

Thanks Werner, GREAT WORK!

[Ducimus]

Great work Wenersobe!

I really love your mod. I have one question and one observation for you.

Question:
Why is double torpedo damage neccessary? What do you think would happen if i ran your mod with normal torpedo damage?


Observation:
I noticed in the single mission you have set up, that the tanker, after about 20 mins or so, seems to spontaniously combust, all on its own.

[Wokcus]

I just wanted to add my thanks here to Werner for all his hard work. I downloaded this last night and tried it out. It's a huge improvement over the stock game and adds immensely to both the immersion and replayability. :up: Awesome job!

[Bluesub 6]

It work really fine!
Great Mod Werner:up:

[Fish40]

I'm useing RFB, and I'm afraid that this mod conflicts with some of the changes incorporated in RFB. Apparently, RFB also changes the damage files, as well as a torpedo file( JSGME warned of the conflict). What would happen if I overide the RFB changes with this mod?

[Misfit138]

I'm useing RFB, and I'm afraid that this mod conflicts with some of the changes incorporated in RFB. Apparently, RFB also changes the damage files, as well as a torpedo file( JSGME warned of the conflict). What would happen if I overide the RFB changes with this mod?

I made the torpedo file compatible with this mod. Used that RFB file as a base

http://files.filefront.com/NSM3+hardcore+torpedo+modzip/;8297585;;/fileinfo.html

[direland69]

WernerSobe, this is fantastic! I'm amazed at how your contribution has changed the mechanics of the game. If there ever is a SH5, UBI should be offering you a job.

Thank you so much for your efforts. I could never play SH4 without it now.

[C DuDe]

Great work Wenersobe!

I really love your mod. I have one question and one observation for you.

Question:
Why is double torpedo damage neccessary? What do you think would happen if i ran your mod with normal torpedo damage?


Observation:
I noticed in the single mission you have set up, that the tanker, after about 20 mins or so, seems to spontaniously combust, all on its own.


OK,

Going to DL it just after typing this :yep: .

Very nice stuff indeed WernerSobe, very nice!!! :up:

I was happy enough with the 25% increase in torpedo power but if I read the above quote correctly the damage increase is 100% more then the stock game.

I'm not complaining just wondering about it, if by any very slim chance I'd like to switch back to 25%, would that be a possibility?

:ahoy: :lurk:

[leovampire]

I just installed your mod and went to my sabe where I am working on my LBO rework in the east china sea and when I went to check my changes saw this:

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/l/leovampire/93141/ibfvyxazqf.thumb250.jpg (http://gallery.filefront.com/leovampire//716864/)

Why is there smoke in the middle of the ocean next to my sub?

[tater]

This was posted at the zoo of a dinsdale sinking using your mod:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s300/lane2512/dinsdale.jpg

[billko]

This was posted at the zoo of a dinsdale sinking using your mod:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s300/lane2512/dinsdale.jpg

Now *that's* what i call being blown out of the water! :rotfl:

Seriously, though - I'd trade an occasional oddity like this for everything else this mod does.

[Digital_Trucker]

Musta been one of them there "nuclear" torpeders!:rotfl:

Seriously, I agree with billko, this kind of oddity is well worth enduring to have the enjoyment/immersion provided by the mod.

Now, exactly how was that set up, I'd like to reproduce it (a couple thousand times).:huh:

[tater]

Maybe the subchaser has no mass?

[Digital_Trucker]

Sorry, couldn't resist, but maybe the cargo was helium?

[tater]

Hydrogen ;)

[leovampire]

try running it at stock levels tater then sink the dinsdale

[Digital_Trucker]

Hydrogen ;):rock: :rotfl:

[tater]

I did (that wasn't my pic by the way). When I sank her she blew up a fair bit, but nothing like that (I hit dinsdale with 2 of 3 fish at 2300 yards). Just with whatever stock TM has for damage.

I've sunk MANY subchasers, never seen one in the air like that.

[Digital_Trucker]

I'm guessing that the person who posted the pic was using a torpedo mod and the reason this only happened after the Natural Sinking Mechanics mod was applied is that NSM makes the sub jolt upwards (like it's supposed to) when struck by an exploding torpedo. Prior to NSM it probably went underwater rapidly then bobbed back up when struck with the sooperdoopertorpedo

[Ducimus]

Well, when said double torpedo damage, maybe i meant 25% - i was in a hurry when i asked the question. Just FYI, i have tried it with stock torpedo's, and didn't notice any difference, so i thought surely there was a reason im not seeing for the upped torepdo damage - hence i asked.

As for Dinsdale... wow. Did someone do a time warp and aquire a Mark 48 torpedo ? :lol:

[leovampire]

what is going on?

No matter where I go or how much time passes this smoke is fallowing me. As soon as one get's to the end of my visual range it reapears next to my sub on either side of it.

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/l/leovampire/93141/ucrjcpnfxw.thumb250.jpg (http://gallery.filefront.com/leovampire//717172/)

I have not droped a plane or sunk a ship in 14 game day's time.

[kv29]

thanks for you efforts, werner. the mod rocks.
is it just me or the holes on the ships look a little too big now?

[tater]

That's just weird, leo. I've not seen that at all.

tater

[WernerSobe]

Great work Wenersobe!

I really love your mod. I have one question and one observation for you.

Question:
Why is double torpedo damage neccessary? What do you think would happen if i ran your mod with normal torpedo damage?


Observation:
I noticed in the single mission you have set up, that the tanker, after about 20 mins or so, seems to spontaniously combust, all on its own.


1. Double damage is necessery because hitpoints for every zone has been doubled too. So basicly you will not notice the double damage. Ive done it to make the deckgun more challenging. In stock zones have a hitpoint range of 100-150. Meaning you need only a few shells to flood that zone and only about 15-20 shells for a ship when placed below the water line.

My first approach was reducing the gun damage. But that ended up in problems with armor penetration. Because this is based on damage and lower damage that its already is makes it impossible to penetrate even the lowest armor.

So ive increased the hitpoints for every zone. To make the torpedos still do the desired damage, and since the zone hitpoints has been doubled, they must also do double damage.

You should now need 40+ shells for a medium size ship. If you use lower torpedo damage, well not much will happen, you will need more torpedos to make the ship flood. You can do it if you like.


2. Realy? Well if its blows on its own without your action then its a bug ill look into it. It can however be turned on fire by ships exploding nearby. There is an explosion range of exploding ships that can damage other ships too. So maybe you have blown a ship next to it that turned the tanker wich is full of aircraft fuel on fire?

[tater]

Interesting. I did testing with NSM vs ramming by DDs.

My sub still takes no damage (that I SEE, guess I should look at hitpoints), but the DD takes no sudden damage.

I let one ram me 3 times, but I was crippled and had to surface (he did no ramming damage, but he DCed the living crap out of me each pass). So I surface, and start shooting (I'm dead in the water with the "all engines dead even though I show half my engines undamaged" bug). I hit the DD 2 times, and I get an "enemy unit destroyed" message.

Rafts appear in the water, and he steams off at high speed. After a few miles he stops dead, crew at guns. Another DD comes and after a while I am sunk.

I assume the periscope still does massive hitpoint damage to DDs even if they at least don;t explode. Still, better than before.

[WernerSobe]

You could have hit his ammo bunker with the deckgun? Actualy you can try to increase their armor rating in both zones.cfg and shipfile. They should become immune agains ramming at about 60 AP. But then they will also be immune agains 4" shells. Torpedoes can penetrate armor up to 90.

[Ducimus]

Great work Wenersobe!

I really love your mod. I have one question and one observation for you.

Question:
Why is double torpedo damage neccessary? What do you think would happen if i ran your mod with normal torpedo damage?


Observation:
I noticed in the single mission you have set up, that the tanker, after about 20 mins or so, seems to spontaniously combust, all on its own.


1. Double damage is necessery because hitpoints for every zone has been doubled too. So basicly you will not notice the double damage. Ive done it to make the deckgun more challenging. In stock zones have a hitpoint range of 100-150. Meaning you need only a few shells to flood that zone and only about 15-20 shells for a ship when placed below the water line.

My first approach was reducing the gun damage. But that ended up in problems with armor penetration. Because this is based on damage and lower damage that its already is makes it impossible to penetrate even the lowest armor.

So ive increased the hitpoints for every zone. To make the torpedos still do the desired damage, and since the zone hitpoints has been doubled, they must also do double damage.

You should now need 40+ shells for a medium size ship. If you use lower torpedo damage, well not much will happen, you will need more torpedos to make the ship flood. You can do it if you like.


2. Realy? Well if its blows on its own without your action then its a bug ill look into it. It can however be turned on fire by ships exploding nearby. There is an explosion range of exploding ships that can damage other ships too. So maybe you have blown a ship next to it that turned the tanker wich is full of aircraft fuel on fire?


Running the Light version, sans torpedo mods, and im still sinking ships with around the torpedo's cited. One idea that immediatly hit me, is removing the "target destroyed" message in the menu.txt file. It would put some guesswork back into it.

I beleive, and i could be wrong, that once a compartment is breeched, it WILL flood to 100%. How fast it will flood is probably dependant on the flood time, and the size/severity of the breech (IE size of hole)

In reference to this post:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=120328

I responded with the following:

"An idea that the NYGM team had, who i beleive ran accross the same problem, was simple.

Shorten the length of the keel zone so its a small area, not running the whole length of the ship. And then move the keel zone to different locations on each ship type to keep the player guessing on where the "sweet spot" is"


As per the Tanker exploding on its own. Unfortuantley i can confirm it is. If you run the single mission that comes with the mod, if you wait about 10-15 minutes (without firing a single shot), the ship will explode, break in two and sink. My guess is its something specific to that tanker model.

[WernerSobe]

what is going on?

No matter where I go or how much time passes this smoke is fallowing me. As soon as one get's to the end of my visual range it reapears next to my sub on either side of it.

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/l/leovampire/93141/ucrjcpnfxw.thumb250.jpg (http://gallery.filefront.com/leovampire//717172/)

I have not droped a plane or sunk a ship in 14 game day's time.

never seen something like that. Could be a compability problem with another mod? Have someone else seen that?

[leovampire]

I removed all files that yours would over write to make sure nothing got mixed up in there to create a problem. So I have no clue what is going on with that smoke bit. As soon as I enable your mod and go to my save game the smoke appears in a second or 2 then fallows me around and when I disable your mod and go to that save the smoke is gone.

So anyone's guess is as good as mine on the problem. When I get back to port I will enable the mod again and see if it stops. I will keep you informed on what I find WernerSobe.

[WernerSobe]

you should never install or remove mods on patrol savegames. That will always cause problems.

[leovampire]

because they cause crashes but I have done changes to the same files you reworked and added and subtracted them at will to do in game tests with no problems in the past this was a first for any strange anomolies. But it still dosn't make sence because it is acting like a ship or plane went down nearby and none did. As a matter of fact I am over 800nm from where I sunk my last ship.

I just make sure I do all testing in campaign mode because effects change from single mission to campaign mode so I base all work I do on campaign tests not single mission because that is where it matters most.

For some reason or another the game only takes what information it needs to make a single mission profile work the way it was set up but in campaign mode the game uses every single peace of info available in the files. The best way to see this is PC resorces used when the game is in single mission mode vs campaign mode. Put the game in a window setting and bring up something that shows PC resorces used to include ram and virtual memory and you will see a huge difference between both modes of game use of resorces.

[Anvart]

...
My guess is its something specific to that tanker model.
May be it's well (good) ...
Explosion of gasoline in tanks from a fire ...

[WernerSobe]

As per the Tanker exploding on its own. Unfortuantley i can confirm it is. If you run the single mission that comes with the mod, if you wait about 10-15 minutes (without firing a single shot), the ship will explode, break in two and sink. My guess is its something specific to that tanker model.

I will test it.

Anyway there is only one reason why it could happen.

Ive reduced crash depths for most compartments. Especialy the ballast in the front and the aft of the ships to make sure the flooding increases when the decks gets below water. Now the tankers are by nature sitting very low in water. It could be that when the ship is rocking in waves. Once one of these ballast starts flooding it will pull the bow or aft down under water and trigger crash depth destruction of zones filled with fuel...

So basicly it must be a problem with crush depth.

[WernerSobe]

because they cause crashes but I have done changes to the same files you reworked and added and subtracted them at will to do in game tests with no problems in the past this was a first for any strange anomolies. But it still dosn't make sence because it is acting like a ship or plane went down nearby and none did. As a matter of fact I am over 800nm from where I sunk my last ship.

I just make sure I do all testing in campaign mode because effects change from single mission to campaign mode so I base all work I do on campaign tests not single mission because that is where it matters most.

Well it realy makes no sence, i have no idea. I cannot do anything as there are no reports from others with that problem. I have ran a couple patrols with that mod and never seen that.

[Seaman_Hornsby]

As per the Tanker exploding on its own. Unfortuantley i can confirm it is. If you run the single mission that comes with the mod, if you wait about 10-15 minutes (without firing a single shot), the ship will explode, break in two and sink. My guess is its something specific to that tanker model.
I will test it.

Anyway there is only one reason why it could happen.

Ive reduced crash depths for most compartments. Especialy the ballast in the front and the aft of the ships to make sure the flooding increases when the decks gets below water. Now the tankers are by nature sitting very low in water. It could be that when the ship is rocking in waves. Once one of these ballast starts flooding it will pull the bow or aft down under water and trigger crash depth destruction of zones filled with fuel...

So basicly it must be a problem with crush depth.
I can confirm this one too, fellas. I fired up the test mission last night and was happily torpedoing away (nowhere near the tanker) when I suddenly discovered that the big guy had blown up, broken in two and sank. Never fired a shot near it, didn't hit any ships near him either, so it was definitely a case of spontaneous combustion.

[billko]

As per the Tanker exploding on its own. Unfortuantley i can confirm it is. If you run the single mission that comes with the mod, if you wait about 10-15 minutes (without firing a single shot), the ship will explode, break in two and sink. My guess is its something specific to that tanker model.
I will test it.

Anyway there is only one reason why it could happen.

Ive reduced crash depths for most compartments. Especialy the ballast in the front and the aft of the ships to make sure the flooding increases when the decks gets below water. Now the tankers are by nature sitting very low in water. It could be that when the ship is rocking in waves. Once one of these ballast starts flooding it will pull the bow or aft down under water and trigger crash depth destruction of zones filled with fuel...

So basicly it must be a problem with crush depth.
I can confirm this one too, fellas. I fired up the test mission last night and was happily torpedoing away (nowhere near the tanker) when I suddenly discovered that the big guy had blown up, broken in two and sank. Never fired a shot near it, didn't hit any ships near him either, so it was definitely a case of spontaneous combustion.

I think we can all agree that we're not dipleased with WernerSobe's efforts; in fact, we're in awe that one person not even affilliated with the developers of a game could so affect the playability of said game. What this thread spin-off points out is that no one person can ever do a thorough job of bug testing and it is our job to report such anomalies so he can fix them. He simply doesn't have the standing army of testers necessary to do the job, so he has to rely on us, the voluntary army, to help him out.

Thank you so much, WernerSobe, for your monumental efforts!

Bill

:up: :rock:

[Digital_Trucker]

For some reason or another the game only takes what information it needs to make a single mission profile work the way it was set up but in campaign mode the game uses every single peace of info available in the files. The best way to see this is PC resorces used when the game is in single mission mode vs campaign mode. Put the game in a window setting and bring up something that shows PC resorces used to include ram and virtual memory and you will see a huge difference between both modes of game use of resorces.

Leo, part of the reason it appears this way is that a single mission only deals with one little piece of the game's world, while the campaign mode has to deal with all the things that are happening in the entire game's world. That's part of the reason why you see a difference in resource usage. Why a particular mod should act differently in one or the other makes no sense, but then computers (and games) have a way of being that way:damn:

[raifg]

I have downloaded the 3.0 edition: it is very nice and more realistic than the SH4'S one. Thanks a lot for your contribution.
Just one question ?
Can you precise me the size of the area you have to stay in if you want to hit points when sinking a ship (I mean the radius for instance). Have I to follow the ship until she sinks ? ....

[WernerSobe]

I have downloaded the 3.0 edition: it is very nice and more realistic than the SH4'S one. Thanks a lot for your contribution.
Just one question ?
Can you precise me the size of the area you have to stay in if you want to hit points when sinking a ship (I mean the radius for instance). Have I to follow the ship until she sinks ? ....

I cant tell you the exact range but its about 40 miles. As long that vessel is rendered and sinks you score a kill. Actualy always try to kill them when they are in sight.

[Wilcke]

As per the Tanker exploding on its own. Unfortuantley i can confirm it is. If you run the single mission that comes with the mod, if you wait about 10-15 minutes (without firing a single shot), the ship will explode, break in two and sink. My guess is its something specific to that tanker model.

I will test it.

Anyway there is only one reason why it could happen.

Ive reduced crash depths for most compartments. Especialy the ballast in the front and the aft of the ships to make sure the flooding increases when the decks gets below water. Now the tankers are by nature sitting very low in water. It could be that when the ship is rocking in waves. Once one of these ballast starts flooding it will pull the bow or aft down under water and trigger crash depth destruction of zones filled with fuel...

So basicly it must be a problem with crush depth.

I can confirm the same behaviour here as well, last night I was testing the mod and 'lo and behold.....I was curious why the ship was burning and sinking without having put any torps into it...!

Is it just me or do the torpedoes seem more powerful in this version....probably just my perception. Thoroughly enjoy your awesome work!

Wilcke

[mgbmike]

As per the Tanker exploding on its own. Unfortuantley i can confirm it is. If you run the single mission that comes with the mod, if you wait about 10-15 minutes (without firing a single shot), the ship will explode, break in two and sink. My guess is its something specific to that tanker model.
I will test it.

Anyway there is only one reason why it could happen.

Ive reduced crash depths for most compartments. Especialy the ballast in the front and the aft of the ships to make sure the flooding increases when the decks gets below water. Now the tankers are by nature sitting very low in water. It could be that when the ship is rocking in waves. Once one of these ballast starts flooding it will pull the bow or aft down under water and trigger crash depth destruction of zones filled with fuel...

So basicly it must be a problem with crush depth.
A second reason...maybe someone removed all the NO SMOKING signs on the ship!!! :rotfl:

Great work Werner! I enjoy it immensely! :rock:

[chris455]

WernerSobe,
First SUPERB JOB on the mod- It truly adds to the emersion factor. I do have one observation to make- I use RFB 1.31. In the Torpedo Practice scenario, I just expended 10 Mark X torpedoes to sink the Mogami. All ten hit, all ten exploded, but that damn CA wouldn't go down until the last torp hit.
Is this to be expected as "normal" now?
Again, GREAT job & keep up thr good work!
Chris

[raifg]

I have downloaded the 3.0 edition: it is very nice and more realistic than the SH4'S one. Thanks a lot for your contribution.
Just one question ?
Can you precise me the size of the area you have to stay in if you want to hit points when sinking a ship (I mean the radius for instance). Have I to follow the ship until she sinks ? ....
I cant tell you the exact range but its about 40 miles. As long that vessel is rendered and sinks you score a kill. Actualy always try to kill them when they are in sight.

Thank you for your approximation.
I try to stay close to sips I have "torped" but it's a bit difficult to wait for a battle ship sinking with many destroyers... And since I want to maximize my torps, I need to use the minimum ( do a lot with nothing, like in my office :88)...)
That is why I wanted to know how far can I wait safely ...:know:

[leovampire]

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/l/leovampire/93141/rxfspqqgzj.thumb250.jpg (http://gallery.filefront.com/leovampire//719129/)

Every tanker was on fire and sinking.

[kikn79]

Ive reduced crash depths for most compartments. Especialy the ballast in the front and the aft of the ships to make sure the flooding increases when the decks gets below water. Now the tankers are by nature sitting very low in water. It could be that when the ship is rocking in waves. Once one of these ballast starts flooding it will pull the bow or aft down under water and trigger crash depth destruction of zones filled with fuel...

So basicly it must be a problem with crush depth.

Firstly, Thank You!! WernerSobe for all your work. This mod is absolutely fan-dam-tastic!! I absolutely love the realism factor it creates. Great work!!!!

I believe you are correct about the crush depth. Just wanted to add my observations for an anomoly I found last night. I'm using TM1.5 and Tater's latest campaign (.76 I believe. I will post this on his thread, also) I ran across a single tanker @ 129Deg E X 27Deg N on Dec. 26, 1942 heading North at around 5 kts. Shortly after I spotted him, he started slowing down and came to a stop. When I got closer and looked at him, he was sitting so low in the water that waves were splashing over the deck. It took me around 30 game minutes to reach a good firing position and at no time did he start smoking before I put a few fish into his hull. The seas were pretty calm, so that may contribute to why he was not damaged enough to burn, but I wanted to post it so you could get a point of reference if needed.

Thanks again for such a fantastic mod!!!

Chuck

[WernerSobe]

yes there is an issue with tankers. will be fixed soon

[chris455]

Wernersobe,
Well,
After playing the Torpedo tutorial featuring HIJMS Mogami about a dozen times now with NSM 1.3 it takes no fewer than 10 torpedoes to put her down, sometimes 12- that's a full loadout in a sugar boat. I admit this is better than seeing a CA go down every time after 1-2 hits (stock game) but........I hope that this can be tweaked. If memory serves, 10 torpedos put down Shinano.
Can someone else confirm?
I do believe overall that NSM is a great improvement over stock- but this newfound toughness in CA's should be dumbed down just a bit, methinks.:yep:

[tater]

Must be that model, in the test mission I sank Takao with 1 fish.

(I'm assuming all the torpedoes were modded to do damage the right way, not just mk14s)

[chris455]

Hi Tater-
I'm using RFB1.31, so the tutorial has been modded to use an S class boat equipped w/ Mk Xs.
I know the Mk X had a smaller warhead, but I think 10-12 torps to take down a Mogami may indicate a problem. I'm not talking about single instances, I'm on my 13th try with it now, same result.
It could be any number of issues, it would be nice if someone else using the latest iteration of RFB could give it a try-
Thanks for the reply;)

[leovampire]

looking forward to seeing it.

[Wokcus]

what is going on?

No matter where I go or how much time passes this smoke is fallowing me. As soon as one get's to the end of my visual range it reapears next to my sub on either side of it.

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/l/leovampire/93141/ucrjcpnfxw.thumb250.jpg (http://gallery.filefront.com/leovampire//717172/)

I have not droped a plane or sunk a ship in 14 game day's time.
never seen something like that. Could be a compability problem with another mod? Have someone else seen that?
I'm seeing this now as well. The behavior is pretty much the same as Leo describes. I'm not running very many mods: NSM3 Classic, Living Breathing Ocean, the green lamp mod, and a bearing plotter mod (puts a compass thing around your boat on the nav map).

I installed NSM during a career, but while I was in port. I didn't see this smoke problem at all the first two days I played with NSM. I don't know if this maters, but last night I took some depth charge damage (to the deck gun and AA). I got away, and the crew repaired it, so I didn't think anything of it. Today when I loaded my game, the crew announced "we're taking damage" which I thought was pretty odd. (No damage showed on the Damage management screen). I was mostly in the nav map initially, so I didn't notice if the smoke was there when I started the game. However, I ran across a couple of merchants, torpedoed them, and got the ship sank message. I went to the free cam to enjoy the view of the sinking ships as the sun set when I noticed the smoke behind me, and quite far from the action.

I didn't think anything of it, but I've continued on and the smoke follows me everywhere just as Leo describes. On the surface or submerged it doesn't matter. :confused:

Hope this helps.

[Wokcus]

Here's a little more info on the problem with the smoke column following me around.

Everytime I load my latest save I get the "we're taking damage" message. I had recalled reading about "invisible" damage, so I downloaded the damage analyzer program. Under "Deck Watch" this program reported:

Aft Gun Deck
small leaks

The damage bar for that section was at about 25%. This made me wonder if the smoke was related to this static damage. I loaded a game from before my depth charge encounter. Unfortunately, the smoke was still there.

I loaded a save game from when I was in base, and went out on patrol and the smoke was gone. I also loaded a game from a previous patrol and no smoke.

So, I thought that it might have been the damage, but that doesn't seem to be the case. :hmm: It seems associated with that particular patrol, although I'm pretty sure I didn't have the smoke on that patrol last night.

In any event, just thought I'd toss out some more info for people to consider.

[Seaman_Hornsby]

Hi Tater-
I'm using RFB1.31, so the tutorial has been modded to use an S class boat equipped w/ Mk Xs.
I know the Mk X had a smaller warhead, but I think 10-12 torps to take down a Mogami may indicate a problem. I'm not talking about single instances, I'm on my 13th try with it now, same result.
It could be any number of issues, it would be nice if someone else using the latest iteration of RFB could give it a try-
Thanks for the reply;)
I tried the tutorial mission last night (not using RFB) and found that it took about 5-6 Mark XIVs to sink the Mogami. Four hits spread along the hull would stop her, but she'd just lay there with a list and no indication of sinking anytime soon. One or two more torpedoes would then increase flooding and after a few more minutes waiting, she'd finally roll over and go down. Given that I sank the Takao in the NSM test mission with only two Mark XIVs, and the number of Mark Xs you used, this would seem to suggest that the Mogami is a much tougher bird than some of the other warships.

Sidenote: I played the tutorial three times to test this and on the first try I hit the target with three torpedoes and the fourth struck my after torpedo room following a circular run. This is the second one I've encountered, and the first fatal one. Oddly enough, the aft torpedo room was destroyed (100/100 damage) yet the crew there were only mildly injured. I put the damage control boys to work, but the bulkhead was wiped out and the boat was doomed. We lasted several minutes before I got the spinning death screen. Naturally, Tang (http://www.csp.navy.mil/ww2boats/tang.htm) and Tullibee (http://www.csp.navy.mil/ww2boats/tullibee.htm) came to mind.

[ReallyDedPoet]

I'm seeing this now as well.
This is a strange one, I have not come across it yet.


RDP

[Wokcus]

So I finished my patrol last night. The smoke followed me throughout, all the way back to Freemantle. When I went out on the new patrol (after being in the base) the smoke was gone.

I was thinking about what was different about that particular patrol that may have triggered the problem. :hmm: As I described above, I initially thought that it might be the hidden "static" damage, but that doesn't appear to be the case. The only other thing I could think of that was different was that I sank a fishing boat, and a junk with the deck gun. I usually don't bother with them, but I'd went out of my way to investigate a radar contact, and the seas were calm so I took a little target practice.

Unfortunately, I don't have a save from before I sank those two boats, so I can't easily check this. On my current patrol I'm keeping an eye out for similar craft, but of course now that I actually want to find some I can't. :damn:

I'll post again if I find anything interesting.

[WernerSobe]

the interestning thing about it, i havent touched the damage model for the sub in no way. Ive left the sub damage portion in zones.cfg untouched and aswell didnt change anything with sub files.

And then, i have ran a couple of patrols now and also been damaged and it seems not to happen to me. Thats a problem because how could i fix it if it doesnt trigger on my machine?

Ive also sank fishing boats and junks with the deckgun. No smoke. Well let me know if you can find out what triggers the smoke for you.

[tater]

Wonder if the devs used a ship zone for a sub someplace and didn't tell us...

BTW, werner, did you see DTB's post in your thread in the general forum? Very interesting.

[wovik]

Wokcus

Sounds like you had a GHOST SHIP following you around :D

[PANTERA999]

Hi i have problem with gun is very strong i sink ships like med cargo with 5-6 shots in wather line. i use mod v 2.6 and instal 3.0 the torp are exelent and sinking ships :o :o

[Wokcus]

Thats a problem because how could i fix it if it doesnt trigger on my machine?
Oh, believe me I understand that. (I'm a EE in real life.) It wasn't my intent to complain or demand a fix. I was just posting the info where others could see it. So far it seems that leovampire and I are the only ones experiencing this problem; but if others have the same problem and read my posts maybe it will help someone figure out what's going on. My goal was simply to share info.

For now the smoke is gone, and it's a great mod. Thanks again for all your hard work. If I do figure out how to trigger that behavior, I'll be sure to post that info.

[Wulfmann]

The Shinano was sunk by 4 evenly spaced torpedo hits (USS Archerfish fired a spread of six) but the ship was incomplete and many watertight doors were left open and her skeleton crew was inexperienced.

It likely would have taken 10 torpedoes to sink the ship in true battle conditions had she been attacked fully worked up. She was on her way to the inland sea to pick up her air group and begin training and had left Tokyo for fear of her safety

Wulfmann

[Wulfmann]

Tater,
I am beginning to do a check of RND files for accuracy, particularly the task force groups.
They are way off
Japs ran a decent navy and like most grouped ships by class.
With rare exceptions battleships and cruisers and even destroyers traveled with their sisters.
In the RND files Ise, Fuso and Kongo are mixed.
Didn't happen.
I changed that so it could not.
While there were rare occasions when heavy cruisers were mismatched (Savo Island Chokai led the 6 gun Aoba type cruisers) they normally stuck together.
I am also re-dating the roster so Maya is added to Takao until her damage and modding when she re-enters as a single class Maya.( I have added the names to Takao class as well as Kongo in the roster)
I have moved Mogami to enter in Jan 43.
However, in my TF groups I have left type 7s with no name so others could still see the inaccurate variation but no generic type 7 is anything but a single ship. No double Mogami or Maya groups.
I have also redone the escorts to be the more modern DDs that would have escorted such TFs.
I have eliminated multi CVEs as they were not in service in 42 save one.
As for DDs
The Minekazes and Musukis were converted to fast transports so could never have been TF escorts but I have made them the primary convoys escorts (ships used are missing from SH4) plus the fast transport roll is not done in the game as it was in real life in the Solomons.
I have no intention to offer mods in SH4 (Other games have taught me well enough the grief) but will be happy to send the stuff for you to look at and use or consider parts of in your mods.
I mean this with no disrespect. I do not care if they are not used. I will mod my version to suit history within practical limits but my intention is to play and enjoy SH4 not become a mod provider so will not be offended if nothing I make is used by anyone.
However, as it sits now 1942 is so far off it begs correction, at least in my rig.

Wulfmann

[tater]

Better in my thread, but yeah, many of the groups have not been tweaked yet. The stock uses things like 80% chance 1xgeneric DD times 10, so I haven't gone through and changed all to 4x Same at x% chance.

I usually use minekaze for TBs and ODD substitutes as well.

As for 'TFs" remember that in game a TF is just a group that has a warshiop as the leader. I make some "convoys" in the TF layers if that seems appropriate. Ie: truk to marshalls, etc.

Haven't really gotten to "real" TFs yet, those will be scripted and based on the TROMs.

As I said in the readme, the campaign is not historical, just slightly more so, with reduced, zig-zagged traffic. It;s a practice run for a real campaiign to be built completely from scratch with more attention to TROMs etc

tater

[chris455]

Update on Mogami issue w/ NSM and RFB:
I installed Bandos torpedo tweak, and now Mogami will go down with as few as 4 MK 10s.
The only problem I have now, is that I am being chased by a column of smoke.
I hope we can track this bugger down ;)

[leovampire]

because the Dev's made it so ships and planes now react to seeing smoke from a distance after patch 1.3 so they will come take a look until it is gone or they sink you I found that out the hard way.

[WernerSobe]

because the Dev's made it so ships and planes now react to seeing smoke from a distance after patch 1.3 so they will come take a look until it is gone or they sink you I found that out the hard way.

youve got something new about smoke bug?

i still couldnt trigger it on my machine. So everyone who happen to see it please try to remember what you did when it appeared. I must figure out what triggers it.

[chris455]

I am getting this too- (what Leovampire is reporting below)
is it fixable ?
It is a real immersion-killer. I love RSM but if this can't be removed, I won't be able to continue using it:shifty:

what is going on?

No matter where I go or how much time passes this smoke is fallowing me. As soon as one get's to the end of my visual range it reapears next to my sub on either side of it.

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/l/leovampire/93141/ucrjcpnfxw.thumb250.jpg (http://gallery.filefront.com/leovampire//717172/)


I have not droped a plane or sunk a ship in 14 game day's time.

[leovampire]

it only seems to happen when you load a saved game and have some kind of damage to the sub that gets reported by the crew right at the begining of the game loadup when they say "Were taking damage Sir". Never saw it at any other time so far. But I promise to keep you informed one way or the other on all observations of it.

[chris455]

I have not noticed that aspect of it- I was enegaged in a convoy battle off Luzon- I am unaware that I took any damage but I was under fire. I do not recall the crew reporting that we had taken damage. Yet after sinking two CLs and an troopship, I sprouted smoke, and it followed me all the way back to Manila.

[leovampire]

and actualy found some slight damage around the deck gun area of the sub with some minor leaks at least that is what the tool says. It is the type of damage that dosn't show up in game and can not be fixed until you return to base. But werner said he didn't touch the sub effects so I don't know why they would interrelate. So maybe there is something else going on.

[Frederf]

I've picked up now a second following plume of smoke. I think it is tied to shooting down aircraft and some merchant encounters.

[leovampire]

I just downed a plane and the smoke is fallowing me around now.

http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/l/leovampire/93141/echesrcuge.thumb250.jpg (http://gallery.filefront.com/leovampire//727610/) http://static.filefront.com/images/personal/l/leovampire/93141/apliqnvink.thumb250.jpg (http://gallery.filefront.com/leovampire//727612/)

downed the plane at 17:11 still with me at 17:14 moving at ahead standard
in a differn't direction. just keeps reapearing close to the sub then once it
is out of visual range it reapears. And 2 plus hours lator still there so it
must be the planes.

I did find a way to make it go away though. Do a save game then load that save
and it stops. But it is still a glitch non the less.

[Lt. Staumeier]

Nopes, it's not the planes. I've had this happen when there was nothing but destroyers around. I sank 5 of them with some cowboy shooting, and after I loaded my game I have this smoke plume following me around too. I'm damaged to some extent, but not badly.

[kv29]

send your savegames to werner, ASAP

[Wokcus]

I saw the posts from leovampire and others discussing the problem where smoke follows you around. Since others are seeing this now I thought I'd give an update on my experiences.

I screwed up last night and took some depth charge damage again. Seeing Leo's post about the hidden damage being a possible trigger I was curious to see if I would have the problem when I loaded my save today. When I loaded I got the dreaded "we're taking damage sir!" message so I popped to the free camera for a look. Sure enough there was smoke, but instead of persisting and following me around, it stopped after just a few seconds. Also the smoke seemed to be coming more from the sub than my previous experience where it initially appeared off to one side a little. I used the damage analyzer to see if the damage was different than that previous time, but the analysis was exactly the same ... aft gun deck, minor leaks.

Also I loaded a save from before this damage, and I didn't see any smoke (either transient or persistent). I had previously thought that the damage was a red herring, but given Leo's posts and this experience it does seem to be related somehow, I just don't see the pattern yet.

If I gather any more info, or have an epiphany I'll be sure to post. :)

[leovampire]

Okay if you look at the Zone's file where you list flooding times and effects of explosions. At the top of it there is a passage:

"It'a advisible to edit the values for parameters using the Zones Properties
; Editor. Note that the Editor doesn't provide the feature to add/delete a zone
; from [Zones List], therefore before edit the parameter for a new zone, one must
; manually add it in [Zones List] section then start the Zones Properties Editor.

That editor is in the main root directory of the game before you even go into the Data file. It is a ACT file so it will take a special program to open it one that handles that code and no HEX editor can adjust the file the way it is coded as far as I can read and tell.

All the damge and zon and zone's file's are tied to that one thing. If something is adjusted beyond the paramiters it is set for or to understand it can and probably will cause the effects that are now being experienced.

[WernerSobe]

Okay if you look at the Zone's file where you list flooding times and effects of explosions. At the top of it there is a passage:

"It'a advisible to edit the values for parameters using the Zones Properties
; Editor. Note that the Editor doesn't provide the feature to add/delete a zone
; from [Zones List], therefore before edit the parameter for a new zone, one must
; manually add it in [Zones List] section then start the Zones Properties Editor.

That editor is in the main root directory of the game before you even go into the Data file. It is a ACT file so it will take a special program to open it one that handles that code and no HEX editor can adjust the file the way it is coded as far as I can read and tell.

All the damge and zon and zone's file's are tied to that one thing. If something is adjusted beyond the paramiters it is set for or to understand it can and probably will cause the effects that are now being experienced.

Ive took this in account ive payed attention to correct IDs. Although we have no zone editor, i doubt it can do anything more then hex can do.

I think it has something to do with the effect generators. Ive added effect generators like fires and smokes to many zones. I havent touched the sub zones but it could be that the sub is also dealing with ship zones. It is not unusual, ive seen ships dealing with zones from other ships (i.e. fubuki destroyer was using zones from battleships).

Can someone who sees that again do me a favor and use the ext cam to find out where the smoke is coming from. Find the source if possible, thanks.

[Hawk_345]

I want to try this mod, but im waiting for a fix on that smoke effect folowing u around, have you made any headway on finding and fixing that problem?

[l3th4l]

Can someone who sees that again do me a favor and use the ext cam to find out where the smoke is coming from. Find the source if possible, thanks.
next time i get this i'll take some screens - when i had this bug before i went looking for a source but there was nothing to be found where the smoke was originating... it just came out of the water one or two hundred meters away from the sub.

[Digital_Trucker]

I want to try this mod, but im waiting for a fix on that smoke effect folowing u around, have you made any headway on finding and fixing that problem?

Not everyone who uses the mod experiences the problem. I've been using it since it came out and have yet to see smoke following me around. I do, however, enjoy the more realistic sinking effects.

[sneekyzeke]

Same here; no smoke following me.

[Hawk_345]

well i guess i will give it a try, i hope i get the same result you guys did.

[CaptainCox]

I want to try this mod, but im waiting for a fix on that smoke effect folowing u around, have you made any headway on finding and fixing that problem?

Not everyone who uses the mod experiences the problem. I've been using it since it came out and have yet to see smoke following me around. I do, however, enjoy the more realistic sinking effects.Same here, never seen it...yet. I am not playing 24/7 but I do have a like 10-15h with this mod, and so far nada.

[Rockin Robbins]

I want to try this mod, but im waiting for a fix on that smoke effect folowing u around, have you made any headway on finding and fixing that problem?

Don't wait! This mod is sooooooooooooo good and I haven't had the smoke effect in several hours and five ships sunk. It really isn't worth worrying about a low percentage problem to give up all the benefits the mod gives. And the workaround is out a couple of posts ago. You can always update when Werner fixes it, but it's great even now.

[Hawk_345]

Well.....................ok:-?

no really i am going to try it, ive been wanting to try it for a while now i was just waiting for a fix, but since you guys give so good of reviews i will try it now.:up:

[Rattail]

"..dum dum dum....dumdum du dum... smoke on the water!":rotfl:

hahaha!! It's cool smoke 'n all! (Would be nice to have it gone though):lol:

[C DuDe]

Hiting a ship at same spot over and over again will not increase its sinking rate. Flooded compartments cannot be flooded more.

This is what bothers me a bit... I can imagine when 1 torpedo hits the ship and makes a hole to the side, the other torpedo fired at the same spot should infact dubble the damage inside the vessel which in turn should help the vessel sink faster cause of more damage to bulkheads and internal structure. (flodding compartments to the left & right)

What I did when I started SHIV was to set torp's to different hights and not really change the angle at all (vessel draft: 24 _ torp's set to 12,15,18) in order to rip the vessel open and make the biggest hole possible top to bottum and damaging the interior as much as possible.

Or am i wrong about this?

[WernerSobe]

UPDATE: Latest Version 3.1

fixed issues with large tanker. It will no longer sink without taking damage.


attempted to fix the following smoke bug.


I cannot say sure if the fix on smoke bug worked because it doest trigger for me so i need your reports. Please report when you still happen to see it.

Use the link on first page

[leovampire]

will down load and check ASAP nice of you to work on it more and apreciated.

[CaptainCox]

YAY! Cheers WernerSobe :up: Thanks for all the work on this one.

[Ducimus]

UPDATE: Latest Version 3.1

fixed issues with large tanker. It will no longer sink without taking damage.


attempted to fix the following smoke bug.


I cannot say sure if the fix on smoke bug worked because it doest trigger for me so i need your reports. Please report when you still happen to see it.

Use the link on first page


:ahoy: :()1: :up:

[chopped50ford]

Again, thanks for the hard work.

DL now.

[tater]

Bump, in my sleepiness last night I missed this!

tater

[Rattail]

Thanks Mate! Please tell me one thing though... must I be in harbour to load this, or can I still be out on patrol?

Thanks again!:up:

[WernerSobe]

Thanks Mate! Please tell me one thing though... must I be in harbour to load this, or can I still be out on patrol?

Thanks again!:up:

It should work on patrol, but its highly recomended to change mods only in harbor to avoid unexpected problems.

[Rattail]

Thanks! Will do!

[Bluesub 6]

Thanks Werner:ahoy:

[Digital_Trucker]

Nice work, Werner.:rock: Thanks.:up:

[Wokcus]

Werner, thanks for your hard work on this newest version. I'll download it an try it out as soon as I can.

[WernerSobe]

ok bad news. Smoke bug still accurs and it triggered for me finely.

Looks like its triggered when loading a saved game after being damaged. It doesnt make sence, absolutely. I have not touched anything dealing with the sub itself, only shipfiles. :damn:


Ive now looked at subfiles, they seem to be alright. They are using only sub zones which i didnt touch. And it acts very strange. There is no source, the smoke seems to be dropped from the sub and remains on surface until its maximum visual range is reached. Then its dropped again. So wtf is that? :doh:

[wovik]

ok bad news. Smoke bug still accurs and it triggered for me finely.

Looks like its triggered when loading a saved game after being damaged. It doesnt make sence, absolutely. I have not touched anything dealing with the sub itself, only shipfiles. :damn:


Ive now looked at subfiles, they seem to be alright. They are using only sub zones which i didnt touch. And it acts very strange. There is no source, the smoke seems to be dropped from the sub and remains on surface until its maximum visual range is reached. Then its dropped again. So wtf is that? :doh:

I can't answer this but are you and others who have this problem using any other mod which might do this? There are some out there that changed the smoke. Perhaps this is related some how?

[Rattail]

Hi Werner
I noticed the following: I was blasting away at a junk with my deck gun (well, the gun crew was!). At that time, there was no smoke. As soon as the "enemy destroyed message" appeared, the smoke appeared of my port stern.

If it helps....


cheers!

[tater]

Drops in the water, then you drive away and it stays there... like an oil burning effect some ships have? They sink, and there is fire/smoke on the surface.

I know you didn't mod the effects. but perhaps the sub calls a certain damage effect that links to something else?

Did you look at all the conning tower zones? what about deck guns? Any of those share stuff with ships?

tater

[wovik]

Drops in the water, then you drive away and it stays there... like an oil burning effect some ships have? They sink, and there is fire/smoke on the surface.

I know you didn't mod the effects. but perhaps the sub calls a certain damage effect that links to something else?

Did you look at all the conning tower zones? what about deck guns? Any of those share stuff with ships?

tater

You know, you might have something here. If his fuel tank is leaking it would still be leaking later but how is it igniting again?

[Digital_Trucker]

You know, you might have something here. If his fuel tank is leaking it would still be leaking later but how is it igniting again?

Check to see if the smoking lamp was lit when it reignited?

[leovampire]

The SHZoneEditor that is in the games main root directory is the problem and what we need is a program that opens and alows you to adjust an ACT file wich is what it is. If you alter the Zon's on just the correct ship that is situated next to the sub damage file in that Editor program it effects the next zone sector sometimes or the one before it.

The only thing I can sugest is seeing if with a Hex editor you can find out what ship is placed in there right next to the zone's for the subs then put that 1 ship back to normal and see if it solves the problem.

[Ducimus]

:cry: Oh well.

I was blasting away at a junk with my deck gun (well, the gun crew was!). At that time, there was no smoke. As soon as the "enemy destroyed message" appeared, the smoke appeared of my port stern.

Come to think of it, i beleive thats when i noticed it too in the previous version, but im not sure if i remember exactly what my actions were.

[GT182]

Werner, I'm using the previous verion of this mod, 3.0 I believe seeing 3.1 is now up. And have had this I've nailed a large merchant( Old Salt something or other) with 4 torpedo hits along it's side leaving large gaping holes, but she would not sink. Only the 5th fish made "Ship Destroyed" come up. But again she didn't sink. I've only seen this happen the one time. Anyother ship that stayed afloat after 4 torpedo hit would sink, and if not the 5th would put her down.

Did this newest version fix this? I've downloaded it but can't use it until I end this patrol. BTW. It might be frustrating they take awhile to go to the bottom, but it sure adds great realism.

[WernerSobe]

ive started reverse engineering to find the problem and ive already surrounded it. It is definetely in zones.cfg. Removing all effects from every zone made the smoke disappear in a bugged savegame. So all i have to do now is to reactivate the effects one by one until i find the one that is responsible for that bug.

so now i know how to trigger it and where the problem comes from. Give me some time and ill fix it.

[leovampire]

glad I wasn't losing my mind being one of the only ones seeing this LOL!!

;)

[WernerSobe]

ok fixed. The ammo bunker for the deckgun was responsible for the bug when it was damaged.

use the link on first page to download the latest version 3.2

[Ducimus]

Thanks for all your hard work! :up:

[Digital_Trucker]

:up: Thanks for the fast resolution, Werner:rock:

[panzer 49th]

I love this mod makes it much more realistic

YAY!!!!! 3.2 a new version

[leovampire]

way to go

[tater]

Wow, nice job!

I DLed 3.1 right away but never got the tiem to try it, now I can go straight to the definitive version.

Maybe I'll finish the TF layer I am currently tweaking and just PLAY for a while.

(though I'm having fun trying to reskin some ships to add some more variability)

tater

[wovik]

ok fixed. The ammo bunker for the deckgun was responsible for the bug when it was damaged.

use the link on first page to download the latest version 3.2

Is the Zones.cfg file the only change from version 3.1?

[sneekyzeke]

Thanx WernerSobe! :rock:

[LukeFF]

Thanks, Werner! Your support for this mod has been stellar.

[WernerSobe]

ok fixed. The ammo bunker for the deckgun was responsible for the bug when it was damaged.

use the link on first page to download the latest version 3.2

Is the Zones.cfg file the only change from version 3.1?

yes. you can just replace this file

[chopped50ford]

I just want to make sure before I overlay this:

Im getting this from JSME, any significant effect this will cause?

"Zones.cfg" has already been altered by the "REL_Trigger_Maru_1-5" mod.
"NDD_Fubuki.zon" has already been altered by the "REL_Trigger_Maru_1-5" mod.
"NDD_Shiratsuyu.zon" has already been altered by the "REL_Trigger_Maru_1-5" mod.
"NKSCS_Taihosan.zon" has already been altered by the "REL_Trigger_Maru_1-5" mod.

Thanks, just want to be sure.



http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c144/chopped50ford/SH4%20Patrol%20Picts/2Torpedoes.jpg

[leovampire]

Why don't you just post a download link for the Zone's file if that is all that is needed over the last fix for the Natural Sinking Mechanics.

Just a sugestion.

[WernerSobe]

Why don't you just post a download link for the Zone's file if that is all that is needed over the last fix for the Natural Sinking Mechanics.

Just a sugestion.

Well look there are maybe new players who didnt install the previous versions. Didnt want to confuse them with another extra download. And after all the mod is only 500kb, better to keep it in one piece.

[WernerSobe]

I just want to make sure before I overlay this:

Im getting this from JSME, any significant effect this will cause?

"Zones.cfg" has already been altered by the "REL_Trigger_Maru_1-5" mod.
"NDD_Fubuki.zon" has already been altered by the "REL_Trigger_Maru_1-5" mod.
"NDD_Shiratsuyu.zon" has already been altered by the "REL_Trigger_Maru_1-5" mod.
"NKSCS_Taihosan.zon" has already been altered by the "REL_Trigger_Maru_1-5" mod.

Thanks, just want to be sure.



zones.cfg is the heart of this mod. It contains the flooding parameters. But it also contains zone proparties for planes and your sub. TM 1.5 changed some zone proparties a little bit. But you wont miss them because the entire damage system is replaced one by one.

the other files are ship files. That ships were bugged and TM 1.5 contained fixed files. This mod is also fixing that ships so of course you get that message. However the ship files in this mod are different because there are more bugs fixed and the compartment layouts were reworked.

So you can install this mod over TM you aint losing anything. But id suggest you to get new version of triger maru. Triger Maru 1.6 now has Natural Sinking Mechanics included.

[billko]

ok fixed. The ammo bunker for the deckgun was responsible for the bug when it was damaged.

use the link on first page to download the latest version 3.2

OMG, dude, you spend WAY too much time on this stuff! Get some rest! I appreciate the relentelss pursuit of the bug and squashing it. Also, thanks to everyone here for their valuable input. With several key witnesses with sharp-as-tacks recall and a few good advisors, the problem was solved!

:up:

Bill

[Wokcus]

ok fixed. The ammo bunker for the deckgun was responsible for the bug when it was damaged.

use the link on first page to download the latest version 3.2
Awesome job Werner! :rock:Thanks again for all your hard work on this great mod.

[Seadogs]

Question: The fixed issue for the large tanker, was this the issue where it's draft was so low it looked like it was taking on water to begin with? If so I just noticed some wierdness inport Okinawa (can't remember the port name, the one just south of Naha) where I have cargo ships almost fully sunk sitting in port. I can post screenies if you like later today.

Using the version embedded into TM 1.6 by the way.

[Ducimus]

Shipping doing wierd things in a port is a stock bug from SH3 thats carried over into SH4. The game doesnt really save positions of objects, it just places them, and they do what they want according to the waypoint information they have assigned (if any) . So if you reload a game that is saved in or near a port, weird things can happen.

[Seadogs]

Shipping doing wierd things in a port is a stock bug from SH3 thats carried over into SH4. The game doesnt really save positions of objects, it just places them, and they do what they want according to the waypoint information they have assigned (if any) . So if you reload a game that is saved in or near a port, weird things can happen.

Roger, thanks!

[switch.dota]

Found a pretty annoying issue today:

I was engaging a taskforce led by a Mogami. I got a textbook spread of three directly into his port side. By textbook I mean 1 midship hit, one aft and one fore, pretty evenly spread across the length. The ship listed heavily to port and stopped dead in the water but did not sink, even after 6 hours. I fired another torpedo directly into the starboard midsection. 20 minutes later the ship was low in the water, no longer listing. I fired my last torpedo at the rear section of the vessel.

So after 2 hours and 5 Mk XIV torpedo hits (evenly spread across the ship's length on both sides), a Mogami Heavy Cruiser is dead in the water with no intention of sinking.

Now comes my question: is such a behaviour normal for a Mogami? I am currently using TM 1.6 and the included version of NSM.

[Ducimus]

Just FYI to avoid any confusion, for anyone using TM 1.6 and are directing questions to Werensobe:

- TM 1.6 is using NSM Light.

- TM 1.6 does not include any torpedo modifications.


Its worth noting that Wernersobe included a torpedo modifcation that doubled torpedo damage, which i opted not to use. Primarly because (in laymans terms) once a compartment starts to flood, it will always flood to 100%. How fast depends on how much damage is done. This, in conjunction with not using wernersobe's torpedo modification, is why i used the LIGHT version instead of the classic version.

[WernerSobe]

Its worth noting that Wernersobe included a torpedo modifcation that doubled torpedo damage, which i opted not to use. Primarly because (in laymans terms) once a compartment starts to flood, it will always flood to 100%.

I realy cant say for sure but i think thats not true. It need to be tested. However i have discovered that its not true for the deckgun. Ive been running tests with the deckgun which was primary the reason why i have increased both, zone hitpoints and torpedo damage.

From my expirience i can damage compartments very slowly with a deckgun. They are not flooding to 100% but just a little bit according to how much damage is done with the deckgun. Setting very high zone hitponits and very low shell damage required more shots to flood that zone to 100%.

As for mogami. That ship was always a problem. It is harder to sink then any other CL, but it is possible even with two torpedoes (placed right). However making it weaker would make all other CL to weak thats the problem.

If i may give you some hints how to sink warships with the new damage system. Expect them being very hard to sink by just flooding. You have better chances to sink them by destabilisation. Make holes on same side, dont try both sides because that will balance the list as you have seen. Instead try to increase the list and capsize the vessel. Try to destabilise the ship by hitting it just below high and heavy superstructures, the high center of mass will cause greater list. Also keep in mind (attention: ace trick!) all warships have pitch stability ballast tanks which are located in front (bow) and back (stern) of the vessel. They are usualy filled with water but once the ship takes damage and is thretened by pitch destabilisation they can be blown. Destroy the right ballast tank and fill it again with water that will greatly reduce the stability and cause the vessel to "dive" below crush depth and basicly crush more compartments one by one.

[Ducimus]

>>I realy cant say for sure but i think thats not true. It need to be tested.

Well i left out some information. Der Teddy Bar's pretty knowledgable on this subject.

Once a zone starts to flood it will to 100%, always. That is, once a zone has had more HP damage than the value of HitPoints * Critic Flotation / 100 then it will always flood to 100%.


He made a pretty informative post here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=622637&postcount=34

[leovampire]

if you fixed the other DD's like you did the Asashio you did a good job because now they sink from a bow shot just fine. No damage can be seen but they do sink. I had one comming straight at me from the stern and did a head on shot with an aft tube. It took off but started to go down and the props lifted out of the water until it finaly sank 1/2 hour lator. So great work.

And I am not using your torpedo mod to sink the ships just the light vs of your natural sinking mechanics so all is working well so far!!!!

[chopped50ford]

Anyone have a link to this Torpedo mod that people are referring to?

Has there been a fix to the "Influence" trigger on the torpedo's or are we stuck with full contact only?

[Seadogs]

[quote=Ducimus]

(attention: ace trick!) all warships have pitch stability ballast tanks which are located in front (bow) and back (stern) of the vessel. They are usualy filled with water but once the ship takes damage and is thretened by pitch destabilisation they can be blown. Destroy the right ballast tank and fill it again with water that will greatly reduce the stability and cause the vessel to "dive" below crush depth and basicly crush more compartments one by one.

Heheh, yes I saw this first hand the other day. One fish under the bridge and one dead under the bow caused a DD to put along straight under as if she had dive planes. Was quite amusing, looked like she was going under to find me.

[switch.dota]

As for mogami. That ship was always a problem. It is harder to sink then any other CL, but it is possible even with two torpedoes (placed right). However making it weaker would make all other CL to weak thats the problem.

If i may give you some hints how to sink warships with the new damage system. Expect them being very hard to sink by just flooding. You have better chances to sink them by destabilisation. Make holes on same side, dont try both sides because that will balance the list as you have seen. Instead try to increase the list and capsize the vessel. Try to destabilise the ship by hitting it just below high and heavy superstructures, the high center of mass will cause greater list. Also keep in mind (attention: ace trick!) all warships have pitch stability ballast tanks which are located in front (bow) and back (stern) of the vessel. They are usualy filled with water but once the ship takes damage and is thretened by pitch destabilisation they can be blown. Destroy the right ballast tank and fill it again with water that will greatly reduce the stability and cause the vessel to "dive" below crush depth and basicly crush more compartments one by one.

I tried 8 (eitght) torpedoes evenly spread along the Mogami's port side. The first spread of three torpedoes knocked out the engines and the following 5 torps were fired at 4 hr intervals. The killing blow was a torpedo directly behind the rear-most turret. The CL sank due to the ammo bunker going kaboom.

[vindex]

I tried the sample mission with the "classic" mod. Because of the enhanced torpedo power (2x?) all of the ships I hit blew up and sank on the first hit. If I hit it smack in the middle they invariable cracked in two. Even one I hit off-center had a hole so large it eventually keeled over and sank. Granted they sank in much more interesting ways, but I found they sank easier than vanilla. Is this the way this mod is intended to work?

[WernerSobe]

>>I realy cant say for sure but i think thats not true. It need to be tested.

Well i left out some information. Der Teddy Bar's pretty knowledgable on this subject.

Once a zone starts to flood it will to 100%, always. That is, once a zone has had more HP damage than the value of HitPoints * Critic Flotation / 100 then it will always flood to 100%.


He made a pretty informative post here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=622637&postcount=34

interestning found. ive set critic flotation everywhere to 0 because i didnt exactly know how it is taken in account. It seems to block the flooding in some cases and makes balancing very difficult.

Lets assume that is true. Then there is also a sideeffect. If a certain amount of damage is done but not enough to beat critic flotation. There is no flooding at all. That would explain odd behavier of critic flotation on some zones. So there is a threeshold when the zone start flooding and if it does it is flooding up to 100%.

However that doesnt match my tests with the deckgun. Assuming that every single shot would fill the zone it hits to 100% because they are all set to 0% critic flotation.

I need to run more tests with torpedo and deckgun damage agains zone hitpoints and critic flotation.

[Ducimus]

Just an FYI, ive started tinkering with it. A preliminary test with changing instances of criticalflotation=0.0 to 0.3 seems the help in regards to instant reports of sinkings even though the target ship is still afloat. Now im not getting the report until the ship is starting to acutally roll over and go down.

[Frederf]

Just an FYI, ive started tinkering with it. A preliminary test with changing instances of criticalflotation=0.0 to 0.3 seems the help in regards to instant reports of sinkings even though the target ship is still afloat. Now im not getting the report until the ship is starting to acutally roll over and go down.

It would seem that the criticalfloatation value is at what fraction flooding that the crew bails and considers all lost? Setting it to 0.3 would indeed have a happy effect of fewer insta-deaths by crew opinion but they'd wait a while until the water got up to their knees instead of wetting their socks.

[WernerSobe]

Same story. In 2.6 the crew was leaving the ship much later. So people started talking that it could not be real that a ship that is almost entirely under water is still not considered sank, "there is no hope" they said. Well in this version ive made the crew leave the ship sooner. That was intended. And i bet making the ship counted sank later will bring up those voices again.

[Ducimus]

Well to quote DTB again:
If HitPoints for a zone (are set) to 400 and Critic Flotation to 0.1 (10%), then once 41HP damage had been done then the zone will flood to 100%. But it will take a very long time as the flood rate is determined by the % of damage against the FloodingTime value.


So if a compartment has 340 HPs, with a crit float of 0.3 then once 102 points of damage have been done, it will flood to 100%. What was the damage range on torpedo's again?

[Ducimus]

Same story. In 2.6 the crew was leaving the ship much later. So people started talking that it could not be real that a ship that is almost entirely under water is still not considered sank, "there is no hope" they said. Well in this version ive made the crew leave the ship sooner. That was intended. And i bet making the ship counted sank later will bring up those voices again.

Im looking at it from a mroe practical view. Personally i thnk the point of any sink mod, is to make ships sink more realistically, but also to reduce tonnage people reap. With the ship being given up so soon, people know exactly when its considered sunk, and will use no more ordinance to dispatch it. But when a ship is sinking, and they dont know for certain, they'll use more ordinance to dispatch it, thereby helping to reduce tonnage to more realistic levels.

[WernerSobe]

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/9880/sh42007070816235674xm0.jpg

this is how it was in 2.6. This ship has not been abandoned yet, it is sinking but not count destroyed. Its crew is even shooting back with their deckgun.

However its not critic flotation its crush depth. Set higher crush depth and the ships will keep going even with decks awash. Actualy that being my taste but there were just to many complains that it couldnt be realistic ships not being destroyed in such state.

[kikn79]

this is how it was in 2.6. This ship has not been abandoned yet, it is sinking but not count destroyed. Its crew is even shooting back with their deckgun.

However its not critic flotation its crush depth. Set higher crush depth and the ships will keep going even with decks awash. Actualy that being my taste but there were just to many complains that it couldnt be realistic ships not being destroyed in such state.

Great pic!! I would prefer this. If you were on a ship and were still able to fire, wouldn't you? Read The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors they were still firing until the last. Most of they guys were barely away when the ships went under.

Chuck

[vindex]

Any reply on my question about 1-hit sinkings in the sample mission? Anyone else think the torpedoes may be over-powered? I realize I can switch them back quite easily, just interested in other people's (and Werner's) thoughts on the correct game balance.

[switch.dota]

When a Mogami needs 3 torps to stop and another 4 to sink... I can say that the 2x damage mod IS needed.

[vindex]

Okay, but why do medium/large merchant vessels sink so easily in the sample mission?

[WernerSobe]

Any reply on my question about 1-hit sinkings in the sample mission? Anyone else think the torpedoes may be over-powered? I realize I can switch them back quite easily, just interested in other people's (and Werner's) thoughts on the correct game balance.


Because there are only 3 tankers all full filled with aircraft fuel. It was not intended ive been just testing the problems with tankers and when ive fixed them i forgot to put the cargo ships back.

Dont worry its just fuel or ammo cargo that will destroy a ship in one hit so that being realistic. In campaign you will come across normal cargo way more often. If you want to test "normal" ships anyway just edit the sample mission with the mission editor and put in some.

[DyingCrow]

i came across weid situation regarding gunboats, (and others like armed trawalers and minesweepers, but ill use gunb. as exemple), in which such of them were hit by 2 torpedoes and remained intact, didnt even sink. i checked the original hitpoint amount for the stock version (50) and your modded version (20480):hmm: that is the same as destroyers:o i suggest you check this out (if theres a dock or base within the 200 mn patrol radius its always good to check it out, gunboats trawlers and stuff are always good to add to the amount of sunk metal), as i dont think such small thing would withstand an amount of punishment:-? delivered by a torpedo. same for the 2 other examples, 2 torpedoes for a trawler and 3 for a minesweeper (???!!!!!!!). those things are made of wood... its excellent how you managed to give such a realistic sinking behaviour to floating things, but hitpoint suggest structural integrity as well, and that shouldnt be abandoned, at least for small ships that would break for sure.
k,k, they were all bad shots, i admit:roll:...

[WernerSobe]

i came across weid situation regarding gunboats, ...

i checked the original hitpoint amount for the stock version (50) and your modded version (20480):hmm: that is the same as destroyers:o i suggest you check this out

you didnt read the first page nor the readme did you? There is enterely new damage system, its no longer based on hitpoints. Hitpoints do not matter at all anymore. Well just read the mod description.

And if you have installed the mod properly i promise that anything smaller then 3000 tons will not survive a single torpedo hit. If its not the case you have conflicts with some other mods.

[DyingCrow]

"Ships will no longer sink by hitpoints but only by physical action, such is flooding and losing bouyancy or balance.."
this works like a charm for all but the examples above, because their structure is just too weak to survive a torpedo. sink by flooding, only if i could gun one down (bad idea gunning a gunboat), even then, i doubt it would survive more them 10 .50 shells wherever they hit (it does), because its only protected against low cal. rounds just like any other coastal/river patrol boat. its kinda like a raft surviving a deck gun round, i dont believe thats possible unless you miss.
if you dont think this is an issue it doesnt matter, because it seems like im the only one that noticed it (maybe im the only raiding ports for sitting ducks :P) overall, your system is perfect. a superb exemple i witnessed was a jap plane tender that sustained heavy damage on the bow after midway, and sailed about 10-15 miles more till it finally went down. merchant ships that before required a lot of shots to be killed, can now be sunk with a few snipes on the waterline, exactly as you intended and how it is supposed to be.
as for mods im only using tmaru (which gladly has the NSM included), so theres no conflicts.

[WernerSobe]

so why are you confused about high hitpoints then? the readme explained why all ships are set above 20000.

Im currently running clean install with just tm 1.6. Shouldnt be the problem. I havent seen small crafts taking more then one torpedo yet. Works as intended. Very small crafts like sampans and fishing boats were not touched by the way. They sink like in stock. It starts with gunboats and small merchants.

[Digital_Trucker]

but i also thought you raised the ships hp to such values so they could only be sunk by loosing floatability, not by just gunning them down. but even gunning them down is effective, if done correctly, as i noticed that a few well placed shots on the waterline, under different compartments, sometimes do the trick, and this is really good.

What you are describing (deck gun shots at the waterline under different compartments) causes flooding in multiple compartments, which reinforces the fact that the mod is achieving the desired result and does not indicate that there is something wrong with it.

I've been using it since day one and, other than the occasionally stubborn large vessels (more of a patience problem with me than any problem with the ship) and the shortlived tanker problem, it's been working wonderfully for me.

[tater]

Werner,

I did a patrol last night using NSM classic (latest version). I managed to get a Minekaze DD mad at me, and he charged me. I fired down the throat and the 2 fish missed.

I was diving as soon as the fish were away rudder over, but he made a pass over my stern and shacked me with 2 DCs. Dead in the water, down at the stern, I figured waiting for a 2d run was certain death, so I blew tanks and surfaced.

That was the back story, lol, here's the part related to NSM.

I'm getting hit by fire the moment I surface, but I man the 3" deck gun, fire 1 shot at the DD... and get an enemy destroyed message. We didn't collide, he hadn't damaged himself with his own DCs. 1 shot, waterline, MOT, and that was it. He took a LONG time to sink. I'm all for critical damage sometimes, but with a 3" shell?

I suppose I should set up minelazes and test it, but I thought I'd let you know just in case.

tater

[WernerSobe]

Werner,

I did a patrol last night using NSM classic (latest version). I managed to get a Minekaze DD mad at me, and he charged me. I fired down the throat and the 2 fish missed.

I was diving as soon as the fish were away rudder over, but he made a pass over my stern and shacked me with 2 DCs. Dead in the water, down at the stern, I figured waiting for a 2d run was certain death, so I blew tanks and surfaced.

That was the back story, lol, here's the part related to NSM.

I'm getting hit by fire the moment I surface, but I man the 3" deck gun, fire 1 shot at the DD... and get an enemy destroyed message. We didn't collide, he hadn't damaged himself with his own DCs. 1 shot, waterline, MOT, and that was it. He took a LONG time to sink. I'm all for critical damage sometimes, but with a 3" shell?

I suppose I should set up minelazes and test it, but I thought I'd let you know just in case.

tater

ill look at it

[Ducimus]

I beleive its because of the critical flotation settings. I know ive said that before, and i dont mean to sound like a broken record, nor critical of your excellent work, but im 100% positve on the critical flotation variable.

[switch.dota]

Werner,

I did a patrol last night using NSM classic (latest version). I managed to get a Minekaze DD mad at me, and he charged me. I fired down the throat and the 2 fish missed.

I was diving as soon as the fish were away rudder over, but he made a pass over my stern and shacked me with 2 DCs. Dead in the water, down at the stern, I figured waiting for a 2d run was certain death, so I blew tanks and surfaced.

That was the back story, lol, here's the part related to NSM.

I'm getting hit by fire the moment I surface, but I man the 3" deck gun, fire 1 shot at the DD... and get an enemy destroyed message. We didn't collide, he hadn't damaged himself with his own DCs. 1 shot, waterline, MOT, and that was it. He took a LONG time to sink. I'm all for critical damage sometimes, but with a 3" shell?

I suppose I should set up minelazes and test it, but I thought I'd let you know just in case.

tater

ill look at it
That happends due to the abandon ship algorithm: once X compartments receive critical damage and the ship is going to sink for certain, the crew will abandon it. If your first shot flooded 2 or more compartments then if the 3" shell breached another, the game would realise that sinking is inevitable and abandon the vessel.

I usually get this often when shooting merchants. A 3-torp spread on one side, vessel doesn't sink, even after a lot of hours. Move to the other side, fire ONE shell below the waterline: enemy destroyed mesage.

[WernerSobe]

i agree critic flotations should be altered. At the moment im short on time to take care of it, if you cant wait just increase critic flotation to 0.3 - 0.5 everywhere.

[tater]

My first shot was my ONLY shot. 1 hit, 1 kill.

tater

[LukeFF]

I'm getting hit by fire the moment I surface, but I man the 3" deck gun, fire 1 shot at the DD... and get an enemy destroyed message. We didn't collide, he hadn't damaged himself with his own DCs. 1 shot, waterline, MOT, and that was it. He took a LONG time to sink. I'm all for critical damage sometimes, but with a 3" shell?

I had the same thing happen to me with the Small Modern Composite Freighter. Fired three 4" shells into him, and instantly I got the sinking notification message (I'm using the deck gun values from RFB).

[Ducimus]

I'm getting hit by fire the moment I surface, but I man the 3" deck gun, fire 1 shot at the DD... and get an enemy destroyed message. We didn't collide, he hadn't damaged himself with his own DCs. 1 shot, waterline, MOT, and that was it. He took a LONG time to sink. I'm all for critical damage sometimes, but with a 3" shell?

I had the same thing happen to me with the Small Modern Composite Freighter. Fired three 4" shells into him, and instantly I got the sinking notification message (I'm using the deck gun values from RFB).


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=635510&postcount=772

If critical flotation =0.0 then

340 hp * 0.0 = 0.

which means that the very first shot, regardless of damage number, will start the compartment to flood. With nohting to scale against (IE min damage threshhold) to establish a flood rate percentage, the sinkings are nearly instantanous.

[Jhereg]

Yeah the Small Modern Composite is particularly vulnerable to this, my last few run ins with them have been one to the bow, mid, and stern waterline and poof.

ALLLLLAAAAAAAAAARMMMM!!!! abandon ship:arrgh!:

I sure hope the developers are watching these boards and seeing how quickly and ingeniously the modders on this forum are finding fixes to all probs.

SH5 should be about perfect.....

Thanks for the mod Werner!

[switch.dota]

Yeah the Small Modern Composite is particularly vulnerable to this, my last few run ins with them have been one to the bow, mid, and stern waterline and poof.

ALLLLLAAAAAAAAAARMMMM!!!! abandon ship:arrgh!:

I sure hope the developers are watching these boards and seeing how quickly and ingeniously the modders on this forum are finding fixes to all probs.

SH5 should be about perfect.....

Thanks for the mod Werner!
They've come to RELY on modders to finish their game for them :nope:

[Ducimus]

They've come to RELY on modders to finish their game for them :nope:

I disagree. My understanding of it is this:

Theres two parties responsible for Sh4. The developers, and the publisher. The publisher is Ubisoft, the developers are ultimatly at the whims of the publisher. The publisher is the guy with the cigar in his mouth, worried only about the bottom line. To minimize his expenditures, and maximize his profits. Anything else to the publisher, is not important.

The developers on the otherhand, are the guys who make these games because they love these games. If left to their own devices, SH4 would probably still be in development, and would be released in alot better condition. However, the publisher, mr suspender man with the chomping on his cigar, didn't quite leave them alone to do their magic and imposed deadlines to meet. Sh3 was given 2+ years of development time, SH4 was only given, what... 11 months, if that?

If i was to point fingers, id point them at the Publisher. The developers who cruise this forum, are not the cause, they're in the same boat as we are.

[Rattail]

I think the developers should reward them in some way for their hard efforts. I would have given up on this game long ago if it wasn't for the good work the modders have put into it! Thanks guys! (and gals?)

[billko]

They've come to RELY on modders to finish their game for them :nope:

I disagree. My understanding of it is this:

Theres two parties responsible for Sh4. The developers, and the publisher. The publisher is Ubisoft, the developers are ultimatly at the whims of the publisher. The publisher is the guy with the cigar in his mouth, worried only about the bottom line. To minimize his expenditures, and maximize his profits. Anything else to the publisher, is not important.

The developers on the otherhand, are the guys who make these games because they love these games. If left to their own devices, SH4 would probably still be in development, and would be released in alot better condition. However, the publisher, mr suspender man with the chomping on his cigar, didn't quite leave them alone to do their magic and imposed deadlines to meet. Sh3 was given 2+ years of development time, SH4 was only given, what... 11 months, if that?

If i was to point fingers, id point them at the Publisher. The developers who cruise this forum, are not the cause, they're in the same boat as we are.

I see you have the mindset of a developer. If left to my own devices, I'd *never* release any code that I'd written because there's always something you could fix, something you could do better, or some cool new feautre you could add. But pressure from the powers that be can make you release something that you have to hang your head about. I've been there, done that.

Bill

[tater]

Werner,

I was checking the NSM torpedo.sim so I could use your changes in the hardcore torpedo mod, and I noticed the mk14 still has the impulse set to -3000.

All the other torpedos have positive values, however.

What were you thinking of doing with them?

tater

[DeepIron]

If i was to point fingers, id point them at the Publisher...
I'd certainly agree with Ducimus... Over the years I've developed code on a number of projects for clients and it's pretty much the same story... DEADLINE = MORE $$$ whether or not it's "finished" production quality code...

But be the devil's advocate, I think that sometimes the dev bite off more than they can chew and are too optimistic about delivering the goods... This is most evident in the gaming industry where playability generally loses out to eye candy... Got to get out there with the biggest viusal "WOW" factor it seems.

Thank goodness that SH4 is SO incredibly modable... :cool:

Just my 0.02...

[WernerSobe]

Werner,

I was checking the NSM torpedo.sim so I could use your changes in the hardcore torpedo mod, and I noticed the mk14 still has the impulse set to -3000.

All the other torpedos have positive values, however.

What were you thinking of doing with them?

tater

youre talking about standalone NSM or that in TM? NSM in TM differs a little bit. However impulse should be -3000 for all torpedoes. It makes ships being pushed up uppon impact instead of being sucked down.

[tater]

I was looking at stand alone classic. I haven't messed with it at all, I was just checking it vs the hardcore torp mod to make a NSM compatible .sim file.

I think the values I saw for the others was 2000.

I'd check, but my folks are in town and right now my game machine is in the guest room.

tater

[billko]

I was looking at stand alone classic. I haven't messed with it at all, I was just checking it vs the hardcore torp mod to make a NSM compatible .sim file.

I think the values I saw for the others was 2000.

I'd check, but my folks are in town and right now my game machine is in the guest room.

tater

Sounds like you should switch bedrooms! ;)

Bill:rotfl:

[WilhelmTell]

[...] However impulse should be -3000 for all torpedoes. It makes ships being pushed up uppon impact instead of being sucked down.
Sometimes small ships like fishing boats are flying like 200 meters up in the air upon impact. Maybe that's why the devs wanted the suck down effect ?

http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/7742/nsmtorpimpactpe1.th.jpg (http://img470.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nsmtorpimpactpe1.jpg)

Nevertheless it is a great mod !

[LukeFF]

Sometimes small ships like fishing boats are flying like 200 meters up in the air upon impact. Maybe that's why the devs wanted the suck down effect ?

You aren't supposed to use torpedoes against small craft. ;)

[Seadogs]

Sometimes small ships like fishing boats are flying like 200 meters up in the air upon impact. Maybe that's why the devs wanted the suck down effect ?

You aren't supposed to use torpedoes against small craft. ;)

Great screen shot though! :up: