TMA: tips and tricks

Sonoboy · 08-25-06, 02:05 AM

I realize that probably most people in the multiplayer community use auto TMA. I don't know if it's because they are not good at TMA, or just don't like the fun of working for a solution. I've met a couple people recently that have had little or no experience with TMA. I'm creating this thread so we can have a repository of tips and tricks to help them out.

I had the pleasure of teaching someone today who had never touched TMA before. His first ever solution had an error of 3.2nm for a target 20nm away. I consider that a big success for the first time, and I hope we can have that kind of impact here on newcomers.

So how bout it, people? Post your best tips and tricks.

I will probably create a tutorial video for the method I used. It's a bit hard for me to explain it in text.

Camaero · 08-25-06, 02:11 AM

Even though I am still trying to learn even the basic stations, I plan to study up on TMA soon. Any advice here would be great for me to come back and re-read when I stumble on something!

UglyMowgli · 08-25-06, 04:23 AM

do not change speed, course, depth when making the TMA
use all your PASSIVE sensors not only SONAR (ESM, peri, active intercept)
focus on maximum 3 targets at the same time
try to classify your target ASAP then determine his speed with the DEMON
do not use the first line on the TMA (you just need 3 lines to make your TMA) so in 8 minutes you can pinpoint the target (error < 250yards with some practice).

If you understand french take a look at this video (even if you don't you can watch it)
http://www.mille-sabords.com/forum/u.../TAM-Tuto.divx

Janus · 08-25-06, 04:33 AM

I'm not very into the tma station, I only finetune the autocrew's solution here and there. For example when I have determined a contacts speed via demon.
Sometimes I think I should learn how tma works as the autocrew sometimes blows the solution up badly (for example: master contact via passive intercept and broad- and narrowband - all three sensors indicated a very different bearing from the autocrews tma solution, so I had to fix it).

Will the autocrew change my solution when I turn it back on or will it just update as good as possible?

Camaero · 08-25-06, 05:02 AM

I am not sure if this question belongs in this thread, but how do you classify EXACTLY what a target is without doing it visually? The library usually gives you a few options of what the target could be. Is it possible to completely narrow it down to one possible classification? Or do you need to be that exact for TMA?

I am usually on an FFG. How different is being on a ship using TMA compared to sub?

Thanks for the replies!

UglyMowgli · 08-25-06, 06:34 AM

to identify a target use the narrowband, each lines ont the display give you a freequency so with 3 or more freq you can ID the target, you can also use the BraodBand+DEMON , you can get the number of blades, an another parameter for the ID.
It is easy to discriminate civilian from military and siub from surface ship after it s just your own practice and smart, for example: if you track a NATO carrier , the escort is not from Russia (in a coherent scenario) so in the NB between 2 ships on from NATO an another for the evil side, you choose the NATO.

Sonoboy · 08-25-06, 01:03 PM

Just a little info on what my tutorial video will be covering:

The video will take you from having a contact on only the towed array to creating a firing solution. Having a contact on only one array obviously presents the most challenge in TMA. I will show a little trick you can use to obtain a fairly accurate firing solution. With this trick, you can get an accuracy of within 1nm (to be safe) on a contact 35nm away.

The trick:

The trick involves running somewhat perpendicular to the bearing of the contact. You run perpendicular to it, wait for a few lines of bearing (LOBs) on the TMA plot, then make a U-turn and run perpendicular in the opposite direction and wait for a few more LOBs. A solution can be made from after this second turn, but in the video, I will be making a third turn so that people will be able to clearly see what is going on when I finally start working on the solution.

On the TMA screen, the dot stack in the upper left corner will be used to tell you the approximate range of the target. This is done by:

1. Make sure the time scale is set that you get all the LOBs recieved so far on the TMA screen (right click on the screen and select the time scale. 1 hour should be good.)

2. Take the ruler and span it across the LOBs so that you get a zig zag shape of dots on the dot stack.

3. Drag the ruler out along the LOBs until the dots in the stack form a line or a curve (as long as it isnt a zig zag anymore). At this point, you stop dragging the ruler outward.

4. Line up the ruler so the top dot on the stack is on the centerline.

5. Rotate the ruler to line up all the dots on the centerline.

There! You now have a solution on your target.

Hopefully I explained that well enough. Go try it, and report back here. I will make the video on Tuesday, as that is the only time I have time to do it.

Henson · 08-25-06, 04:05 PM

Beam-to-beam huh? Interesting.

Does this work well in game? I would be concerned with a NB tonal winding up on the same relative bearing it was on before the turn...how does that solve bearing ambiguity? In game it might work with subs, but the fig is right outta luck.

Sonoboy · 08-25-06, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henson

Beam-to-beam huh? Interesting.

Does this work well in game? I would be concerned with a NB tonal winding up on the same relative bearing it was on before the turn...how does that solve bearing ambiguity? In game it might work with subs, but the fig is right outta luck.

You don't have to make a complete 180 degree turn, just off to the side. It's meant to give you the maximum bearing change in a period of time.

Just got back with testing out the FFG TMA. It seems really useless when the LOBs only go out about 7-8nm. Useless to do TMA on surface ships because they are within visual range, and you can use your active sonar for subs.

azreark1 · 08-27-06, 04:10 PM

i can make the basic TMA ok, LOB's and everything but my problem is getting the range...i cant figure out how to get my range right...i crated my own mission with just my sub and a civillian ship on a steady course and what i'm trying to do is get the range with just the sonar.

SeaQueen · 08-27-06, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azreark1

i can make the basic TMA ok, LOB's and everything but my problem is getting the range...i cant figure out how to get my range right...i crated my own mission with just my sub and a civillian ship on a steady course and what i'm trying to do is get the range with just the sonar.

That's sort of the whole point of doing TMA.

The easiest way to get the range is to get DEMON on the target, and plug it into your solution. Anything else requires you to be a little more sophisticated.

Sonoboy · 08-27-06, 06:34 PM

SeaQueen, you will be surprised at how simple my method actually is.

I've shot all the footage for my video. I just need to do the narration.

I have one problem. YouTube has very bad resolution (you need to be able to see the dot stack). So, I need to know a good place to upload it.

The video is currently 8.5mb, which should go up a little more once narration is in there.

I will probably re-write the directions for my method to be as clear and concise as possible.

I have to admit that I'm new to this method, just figured it out last Wednesday.

All in all, I am very excited about bringing this to the community.

Henson · 08-27-06, 07:48 PM

Turn from a lag to an overlead (or vice versa). You'll have both the min and the max range. That's good enough to shoot on usually.

SeaQueen · 08-27-06, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonoboy

SeaQueen, you will be surprised at how simple my method actually is.

Not necessarily. By "sophisticated" I mean that it requires one to actually think a bit instead of just plug in numbers.

Quote:

I have one problem. YouTube has very bad resolution (you need to be able to see the dot stack). So, I need to know a good place to upload it.

Send it to Bill at subguru.com

Sonoboy · 08-27-06, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Send it to Bill at subguru.com

Thank you, SeaQueen. I'll be sure to do that when I'm done.

I'll probably make a word document with pictures for those who don't want to watch the video.

08-25-06, 02:05 AM	#1
Sonoboy Planesman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: United States, CA Posts: 195 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	TMA: tips and tricks I realize that probably most people in the multiplayer community use auto TMA. I don't know if it's because they are not good at TMA, or just don't like the fun of working for a solution. I've met a couple people recently that have had little or no experience with TMA. I'm creating this thread so we can have a repository of tips and tricks to help them out. I had the pleasure of teaching someone today who had never touched TMA before. His first ever solution had an error of 3.2nm for a target 20nm away. I consider that a big success for the first time, and I hope we can have that kind of impact here on newcomers. So how bout it, people? Post your best tips and tricks. I will probably create a tutorial video for the method I used. It's a bit hard for me to explain it in text.

08-25-06, 02:11 AM	#2
Camaero The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA, Massachusetts Posts: 1,477 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Even though I am still trying to learn even the basic stations, I plan to study up on TMA soon. Any advice here would be great for me to come back and re-read when I stumble on something! __________________

08-25-06, 04:23 AM	#3
UglyMowgli Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 784 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	do not change speed, course, depth when making the TMA use all your PASSIVE sensors not only SONAR (ESM, peri, active intercept) focus on maximum 3 targets at the same time try to classify your target ASAP then determine his speed with the DEMON do not use the first line on the TMA (you just need 3 lines to make your TMA) so in 8 minutes you can pinpoint the target (error < 250yards with some practice). If you understand french take a look at this video (even if you don't you can watch it) http://www.mille-sabords.com/forum/u.../TAM-Tuto.divx __________________ Modern Naval Warfare Community Manager Last edited by UglyMowgli; 08-25-06 at 04:25 AM.

08-25-06, 05:02 AM	#5
Camaero The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA, Massachusetts Posts: 1,477 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	I am not sure if this question belongs in this thread, but how do you classify EXACTLY what a target is without doing it visually? The library usually gives you a few options of what the target could be. Is it possible to completely narrow it down to one possible classification? Or do you need to be that exact for TMA? I am usually on an FFG. How different is being on a ship using TMA compared to sub? Thanks for the replies! __________________

08-25-06, 06:34 AM	#6
UglyMowgli Grey Wolf Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 784 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	to identify a target use the narrowband, each lines ont the display give you a freequency so with 3 or more freq you can ID the target, you can also use the BraodBand+DEMON , you can get the number of blades, an another parameter for the ID. It is easy to discriminate civilian from military and siub from surface ship after it s just your own practice and smart, for example: if you track a NATO carrier , the escort is not from Russia (in a coherent scenario) so in the NB between 2 ships on from NATO an another for the evil side, you choose the NATO. __________________ Modern Naval Warfare Community Manager

08-25-06, 04:33 AM	#4
Janus XO Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 434 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	I'm not very into the tma station, I only finetune the autocrew's solution here and there. For example when I have determined a contacts speed via demon. Sometimes I think I should learn how tma works as the autocrew sometimes blows the solution up badly (for example: master contact via passive intercept and broad- and narrowband - all three sensors indicated a very different bearing from the autocrews tma solution, so I had to fix it). Will the autocrew change my solution when I turn it back on or will it just update as good as possible?

08-25-06, 01:03 PM	#7
Sonoboy Planesman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: United States, CA Posts: 195 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Just a little info on what my tutorial video will be covering: The video will take you from having a contact on only the towed array to creating a firing solution. Having a contact on only one array obviously presents the most challenge in TMA. I will show a little trick you can use to obtain a fairly accurate firing solution. With this trick, you can get an accuracy of within 1nm (to be safe) on a contact 35nm away. The trick: The trick involves running somewhat perpendicular to the bearing of the contact. You run perpendicular to it, wait for a few lines of bearing (LOBs) on the TMA plot, then make a U-turn and run perpendicular in the opposite direction and wait for a few more LOBs. A solution can be made from after this second turn, but in the video, I will be making a third turn so that people will be able to clearly see what is going on when I finally start working on the solution. On the TMA screen, the dot stack in the upper left corner will be used to tell you the approximate range of the target. This is done by: 1. Make sure the time scale is set that you get all the LOBs recieved so far on the TMA screen (right click on the screen and select the time scale. 1 hour should be good.) 2. Take the ruler and span it across the LOBs so that you get a zig zag shape of dots on the dot stack. 3. Drag the ruler out along the LOBs until the dots in the stack form a line or a curve (as long as it isnt a zig zag anymore). At this point, you stop dragging the ruler outward. 4. Line up the ruler so the top dot on the stack is on the centerline. 5. Rotate the ruler to line up all the dots on the centerline. There! You now have a solution on your target. Hopefully I explained that well enough. Go try it, and report back here. I will make the video on Tuesday, as that is the only time I have time to do it.

08-25-06, 04:05 PM	#8
Henson Planesman Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 185 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	Beam-to-beam huh? Interesting. Does this work well in game? I would be concerned with a NB tonal winding up on the same relative bearing it was on before the turn...how does that solve bearing ambiguity? In game it might work with subs, but the fig is right outta luck.

08-27-06, 04:10 PM	#10
azreark1 Watch Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denison, TX Posts: 23 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	i can make the basic TMA ok, LOB's and everything but my problem is getting the range...i cant figure out how to get my range right...i crated my own mission with just my sub and a civillian ship on a steady course and what i'm trying to do is get the range with just the sonar. __________________ Ens Devon "Azrearl" Hathaway VMC CO USS Dallas (SSN 700) Last edited by azreark1; 08-27-06 at 04:53 PM.

08-27-06, 06:34 PM	#12
Sonoboy Planesman Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: United States, CA Posts: 195 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	SeaQueen, you will be surprised at how simple my method actually is. I've shot all the footage for my video. I just need to do the narration. I have one problem. YouTube has very bad resolution (you need to be able to see the dot stack). So, I need to know a good place to upload it. The video is currently 8.5mb, which should go up a little more once narration is in there. I will probably re-write the directions for my method to be as clear and concise as possible. I have to admit that I'm new to this method, just figured it out last Wednesday. All in all, I am very excited about bringing this to the community. Last edited by Sonoboy; 08-27-06 at 11:14 PM.

08-27-06, 07:48 PM	#13
Henson Planesman Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 185 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	Turn from a lag to an overlead (or vice versa). You'll have both the min and the max range. That's good enough to shoot on usually.