Pop Quiz for trainee

Udi Hrant · 07-24-06, 10:38 AM

Still in training for my first campaign run. (I'm determned not to sail until I am able to do so under a fairly high degree of realism.) Toward that end if some patient old salt would check my following method and see if I'm on the right track I would appreciate it:

For manual torpedo targeting:
1- determine range by checking mast height of target
2 - determine angle on the bow by matching my course to target and then do 180-target bearing
3 - for now I want to 'guess' rather then track out the targets speed so...I switch to aiming calculator, switch off automatic targeting, enter guessed speed, switch auto target dial back on and then switch back to periscope
4 - aim periscope at target (to set current bearing)
5 - FIRE

Please let me know if that is a logical albeit rough and dirty technique to start with. Thanks.

bert8for3 · 07-24-06, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udi Hrant

Still in training for my first campaign run. (I'm determned not to sail until I am able to do so under a fairly high degree of realism.) Toward that end if some patient old salt would check my following method and see if I'm on the right track I would appreciate it:

For manual torpedo targeting:
1- determine range by checking mast height of target
2 - determine angle on the bow by matching my course to target and then do 180-target bearing
3 - for now I want to 'guess' rather then track out the targets speed so...I switch to aiming calculator, switch off automatic targeting, enter guessed speed, switch auto target dial back on and then switch back to periscope
4 - aim periscope at target (to set current bearing)
5 - FIRE

Please let me know if that is a logical albeit rough and dirty technique to start with. Thanks.

There's good discussion/explanation of manual targeting in the Wiki and the Newbie FAQ, both in the sticky threads. Also, if you run a search using the words manual and targeting, you'll get a bunch of good threads where this has been discussed. See e.g. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...nual+targeting and http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...nual+targeting and http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...nual+targeting .

If I understand your example, you're always lining up to match course with target, so that target's angle on the bow is always 180. But presumably from that you're lining up a stern shot, which is tough because target is narrow and going-away. You're best to line up a shot from ahead of 90 on target if you can. Don't forget that angle on the bow is target's relative bearing to uboat, in other words the bearing from target to uboat taking target's head (bow) as 0deg, regardless of actual (compass) heading.

NeonSamurai · 07-24-06, 04:21 PM

Ok some stuff.

1. Yep
2. Nope ill explain below
3. Use the 3 minute 15 second rule. With alot of expirence you can guess, but even then the 3 minute 15 second rule is best.
4. Umm sort of, ill explain below also
5. Yep

Ok for angle off bow, your uboat's course and speed are utterly irrelivant, AoB is the angle from the ship's perspective to your uboat using the bow (or ship's course) as 0 degrees. Here ill give you some rough AoB examples.

Code:

Now in this example the ship is going due east, the uboat north. The Angle on bow would be 45 degrees Right

Code:

         Target
           --X



             o-- Uboat

Here the uboat is going west, the angle on bow is now 90 degrees right

Code:

         Target
              X
             |
 
 
               o-- Uboat

Now the ship is going North, the angle on bow is 180 degrees

Code:

            Target
                   X--
 
 
        |
        o Uboat

Last example the ship is going west, and the uboat south, AoB is 45 degrees left

As you can see all that matters is the angle of the ship's bow to your position. The only factors are the target's course and position, and your own boat's position

Determining AoB can be done in 2 ways, either by visual estimate (looking at it and figuring out what it is), or by going to the map, pulling out the protractor, mark the first point with the protractor ahead of the ship on its course, the second point in the middle of the ship, and the last point in the middle of your sub. Then read off the angle and determine if your on the right side or left side of the target ship.

Determining speed is easy with the 3 minute 15 second rule, all you do is mark the ship where it currently is on your map, switch to the periscope or tdc, turn on the stopwatch, at 3 minutes 15 seconds mark were the ship is again. then pull out the ruler and mesure between the 2 points, and multiply the value you get by 10 to determine knots (so say the ruler reads 0.8km, the ship is then going 8 knots). This can also be done with out map contacts, but you have to learn to manualy plot, and plot the target out (see my newbie guide stickied here for a website that covers manual plotting).

Now as for shooting ill give some basic advice, which is always try to shoot so that your torpedo doesnt have to turn. ie your shot bearing should be 0 for forward shots, 180 for rear shots. Having the torpedo turn throws off the calculations some, the more it turns the more the path calculations are messed up.

Hueywolf123 · 07-24-06, 09:39 PM

Angle on bow, when you click on this, that little black circle that comes up on the note pad? well the ship in the middle is not you. you need to pretend you are standing on your target - looking back at your boat. Now, where abouts would you be visible from if your target could see you? This is your angle on bow

Udi Hrant · 07-25-06, 08:56 AM

Thanks VERY much guys! This must be stone boring for you but I can't wait to get home tonight, kiss the wife, kick the dog, and get starting choking off the British Empire!

I'm starting to get the same kind of nerd buzz I used to get when I could feel my way around my F16 cockpit.....

Udi Hrant · 07-25-06, 11:05 AM

It has occured to me to ask -

why not make my 3.5 minute marks on the map FIRST in order to get speed of target and then do a quick distance and AOB reading before snapping off my shot? That way his distance and AOB will not have much time to change.

Also the reason I was thinking of 'matching my heading to his was so that these reading would change less as I was taking his temperature compared to, say, moving at right angles to him.

Anyway - thanks again.

bigboywooly · 07-25-06, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udi Hrant

Thanks VERY much guys! This must be stone boring for you but I can't wait to get home tonight, kiss the wife, kick the dog, and get starting choking off the British Empire!

I'm starting to get the same kind of nerd buzz I used to get when I could feel my way around my F16 cockpit.....

Strange man - must be a newly wed
I kick the wife and kiss the dog

Udi Hrant · 07-25-06, 11:08 AM

you've never met my dog!

bigboywooly · 07-25-06, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udi Hrant

you've never met my dog!

You havent met my wife :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Oh :rotfl: she'll kill me

bert8for3 · 07-25-06, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udi Hrant

It has occured to me to ask -

why not make my 3.5 minute marks on the map FIRST in order to get speed of target and then do a quick distance and AOB reading before snapping off my shot? That way his distance and AOB will not have much time to change.

Also the reason I was thinking of 'matching my heading to his was so that these reading would change less as I was taking his temperature compared to, say, moving at right angles to him.

Anyway - thanks again.

Uh ... I don't see how you can mark the 3.5 minutes first since the object is to find out his speed/course, and you have to take range and bearing to target on 3.5 minutes then mark that on the chart and get his speed from that.

NeonSamurai · 07-25-06, 12:19 PM

Assuming your not using map contact updates though, if you are you can just mark it, of course if you have map contact updates enabled you can get all your mesurments from the chart if you wanted.

I will say this though you have a fairly wide margin for error with aob, less so with range and speed. Of course the further the target the smaller the margin for error becomes

As for taking the shot, its more important to position yourself in a good position to take the shot, then trying to quickly get the shot off. Idealy you calculate the speed and just before shooting you update the range and AoB. The TDC will update the Aob based on bearing information from the sighting insturment (but it always assumes the target is continuing on the exact same course, and your own ship's motion can throw it off). It wont update the range though.

If your trying to manualy plot out the ship (no contact update), you need to get the range and bearing, start the stopwatch, plot it out then take the second reading of range and bearing at 3 minutes 15 seconds (thats 3.25 minutes). and plot it out. with those 2 points you now know its course, speed, and position, and using the protractor you can get a pretty exact AoB reading.

Joe S · 07-25-06, 09:08 PM

Are you on the right track? I would say yes. However, there are other methods. Realism is a relative concept. I like to simulate the existence of a fire control party by having the map show the targets that have been spotted. When a target is spotted I set the TDC range manually to 2,000M. I set the aob dial to 90 deg right or left depending on the situation. I open all tube doors and set all torps to the fastest speed. I then use the map marker to mark the current location of the target and start my timer. I use my watch or a cooking timer for this. After one, or two or three minutes, depending on the situation, I make another observation and mark the target's position on the map. Then I measure the distance travelled in the time period,(one minute usually,) to arrive at meters per minute and use a chart that I compiled to set the target speed in the TDC
Next I take the map marker and extend a line through the two last target ship positions and draw a line forward to show the targets course. I then manuver the boat to a position between 1,000 and 1,500 meters from the target's course and at 90 Deg to the target's course. I take brief periodic observations as time allows to make sure the target doesn t change course and to confirm the speed. When the target is at or near 0 deg relative bearing I shoot. With a little practice you get quite good at it. You can use the scope to estimate the range in your observations to make sure your target plot is accurate, and use can estimate the AOB just before firing if you enjoy doing it. But if you have marked the course correctly on the map and manuvered your boat to the correct position, you really dont need to do it. My method may not give you the impression of "realisme " that you like best, in which case you can modify the procedure to suit your preferences. I hope you find this information usefull. JOe S

P_Funk · 07-26-06, 12:29 AM

This should answer all your questions: http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/

A very comprehansive guide to how not to miss everything you shoot at.

Also this helps:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961

Enjoy.

bert8for3 · 07-26-06, 07:53 AM

Where it gets hairy is with convoys, not that I have a whole lot of experience having just had my first convoy encounter. Apart from the stunning visual of it all, which makes me realize I've only scratched the surface of this game, set up and targeting is a whole new deal.

I had to trail the convoy waiting for dark and then work around the left flank and the escort off the flank. For a lot of the time, closest ship was the escort, so this is the only report I was getting (on manual). Getting a range on the stadimeter is tough, at least with seas running fairly high. A little variation in where you put the stadimeter can give you very different ranges. I had convoy course and speed from trailing previously, but with the ranges to my two targets (choosing the leader in the nearest two rows) possibly off, I had a hard time telling how close to optimum firing point I was. The way I ended up, I was too close to the nearest target's course line, let fly with two torps at the further target, then had to turn in to get a decent firing bearing to the second. I think I also messed up the AoB's, I think the more you are off a 90deg AoB, the more critical the AoB estimate becomes (?? - from now on will try a protractor for AoB, but time becomes an issue also). So the two salvos missed their targets, but one torp blunders into a light cruiser in the middle of the convoy and sinks it. Go figure. ... what a game!

07-24-06, 10:38 AM	#1
Udi Hrant Watch Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 19 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Pop Quiz for trainee Still in training for my first campaign run. (I'm determned not to sail until I am able to do so under a fairly high degree of realism.) Toward that end if some patient old salt would check my following method and see if I'm on the right track I would appreciate it: For manual torpedo targeting: 1- determine range by checking mast height of target 2 - determine angle on the bow by matching my course to target and then do 180-target bearing 3 - for now I want to 'guess' rather then track out the targets speed so...I switch to aiming calculator, switch off automatic targeting, enter guessed speed, switch auto target dial back on and then switch back to periscope 4 - aim periscope at target (to set current bearing) 5 - FIRE Please let me know if that is a logical albeit rough and dirty technique to start with. Thanks.

07-24-06, 04:21 PM	#3
NeonSamurai Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Socialist Republic of Kanadia Posts: 3,044 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Ok some stuff. 1. Yep 2. Nope ill explain below 3. Use the 3 minute 15 second rule. With alot of expirence you can guess, but even then the 3 minute 15 second rule is best. 4. Umm sort of, ill explain below also 5. Yep Ok for angle off bow, your uboat's course and speed are utterly irrelivant, AoB is the angle from the ship's perspective to your uboat using the bow (or ship's course) as 0 degrees. Here ill give you some rough AoB examples. Code: Target --X o Uboat \| Now in this example the ship is going due east, the uboat north. The Angle on bow would be 45 degrees Right Code: Target --X o-- Uboat Here the uboat is going west, the angle on bow is now 90 degrees right Code: Target X \| o-- Uboat Now the ship is going North, the angle on bow is 180 degrees Code: Target X-- \| o Uboat Last example the ship is going west, and the uboat south, AoB is 45 degrees left As you can see all that matters is the angle of the ship's bow to your position. The only factors are the target's course and position, and your own boat's position Determining AoB can be done in 2 ways, either by visual estimate (looking at it and figuring out what it is), or by going to the map, pulling out the protractor, mark the first point with the protractor ahead of the ship on its course, the second point in the middle of the ship, and the last point in the middle of your sub. Then read off the angle and determine if your on the right side or left side of the target ship. Determining speed is easy with the 3 minute 15 second rule, all you do is mark the ship where it currently is on your map, switch to the periscope or tdc, turn on the stopwatch, at 3 minutes 15 seconds mark were the ship is again. then pull out the ruler and mesure between the 2 points, and multiply the value you get by 10 to determine knots (so say the ruler reads 0.8km, the ship is then going 8 knots). This can also be done with out map contacts, but you have to learn to manualy plot, and plot the target out (see my newbie guide stickied here for a website that covers manual plotting). Now as for shooting ill give some basic advice, which is always try to shoot so that your torpedo doesnt have to turn. ie your shot bearing should be 0 for forward shots, 180 for rear shots. Having the torpedo turn throws off the calculations some, the more it turns the more the path calculations are messed up. __________________ SH3 Newbie Guide Links and other helpfull stuff

07-25-06, 08:56 AM	#5
Udi Hrant Watch Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 19 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Got it! Thanks VERY much guys! This must be stone boring for you but I can't wait to get home tonight, kiss the wife, kick the dog, and get starting choking off the British Empire! I'm starting to get the same kind of nerd buzz I used to get when I could feel my way around my F16 cockpit.....

07-25-06, 11:05 AM	#6
Udi Hrant Watch Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 19 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It's all starting to click now but . . . It has occured to me to ask - why not make my 3.5 minute marks on the map FIRST in order to get speed of target and then do a quick distance and AOB reading before snapping off my shot? That way his distance and AOB will not have much time to change. Also the reason I was thinking of 'matching my heading to his was so that these reading would change less as I was taking his temperature compared to, say, moving at right angles to him. Anyway - thanks again.

07-25-06, 12:19 PM	#11
NeonSamurai Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Socialist Republic of Kanadia Posts: 3,044 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Assuming your not using map contact updates though, if you are you can just mark it, of course if you have map contact updates enabled you can get all your mesurments from the chart if you wanted. I will say this though you have a fairly wide margin for error with aob, less so with range and speed. Of course the further the target the smaller the margin for error becomes As for taking the shot, its more important to position yourself in a good position to take the shot, then trying to quickly get the shot off. Idealy you calculate the speed and just before shooting you update the range and AoB. The TDC will update the Aob based on bearing information from the sighting insturment (but it always assumes the target is continuing on the exact same course, and your own ship's motion can throw it off). It wont update the range though. If your trying to manualy plot out the ship (no contact update), you need to get the range and bearing, start the stopwatch, plot it out then take the second reading of range and bearing at 3 minutes 15 seconds (thats 3.25 minutes). and plot it out. with those 2 points you now know its course, speed, and position, and using the protractor you can get a pretty exact AoB reading. __________________ SH3 Newbie Guide Links and other helpfull stuff

07-24-06, 09:39 PM	#4
Hueywolf123 Bosun Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: gosford, Australia Posts: 68 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Angle on bow, when you click on this, that little black circle that comes up on the note pad? well the ship in the middle is not you. you need to pretend you are standing on your target - looking back at your boat. Now, where abouts would you be visible from if your target could see you? This is your angle on bow

07-25-06, 11:08 AM	#8
Udi Hrant Watch Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 19 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	you've never met my dog!

07-25-06, 09:08 PM	#12
Joe S XO Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 409 Downloads: 28 Uploads: 0	Are you on the right track? I would say yes. However, there are other methods. Realism is a relative concept. I like to simulate the existence of a fire control party by having the map show the targets that have been spotted. When a target is spotted I set the TDC range manually to 2,000M. I set the aob dial to 90 deg right or left depending on the situation. I open all tube doors and set all torps to the fastest speed. I then use the map marker to mark the current location of the target and start my timer. I use my watch or a cooking timer for this. After one, or two or three minutes, depending on the situation, I make another observation and mark the target's position on the map. Then I measure the distance travelled in the time period,(one minute usually,) to arrive at meters per minute and use a chart that I compiled to set the target speed in the TDC Next I take the map marker and extend a line through the two last target ship positions and draw a line forward to show the targets course. I then manuver the boat to a position between 1,000 and 1,500 meters from the target's course and at 90 Deg to the target's course. I take brief periodic observations as time allows to make sure the target doesn t change course and to confirm the speed. When the target is at or near 0 deg relative bearing I shoot. With a little practice you get quite good at it. You can use the scope to estimate the range in your observations to make sure your target plot is accurate, and use can estimate the AOB just before firing if you enjoy doing it. But if you have marked the course correctly on the map and manuvered your boat to the correct position, you really dont need to do it. My method may not give you the impression of "realisme " that you like best, in which case you can modify the procedure to suit your preferences. I hope you find this information usefull. JOe S

07-26-06, 12:29 AM	#13
P_Funk Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 2,537 Downloads: 129 Uploads: 0	This should answer all your questions: http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/ A very comprehansive guide to how not to miss everything you shoot at. Also this helps:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961 Enjoy. __________________

07-26-06, 07:53 AM	#14
bert8for3 Ace of the Deep Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 1,124 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	Where it gets hairy is with convoys, not that I have a whole lot of experience having just had my first convoy encounter. Apart from the stunning visual of it all, which makes me realize I've only scratched the surface of this game, set up and targeting is a whole new deal. I had to trail the convoy waiting for dark and then work around the left flank and the escort off the flank. For a lot of the time, closest ship was the escort, so this is the only report I was getting (on manual). Getting a range on the stadimeter is tough, at least with seas running fairly high. A little variation in where you put the stadimeter can give you very different ranges. I had convoy course and speed from trailing previously, but with the ranges to my two targets (choosing the leader in the nearest two rows) possibly off, I had a hard time telling how close to optimum firing point I was. The way I ended up, I was too close to the nearest target's course line, let fly with two torps at the further target, then had to turn in to get a decent firing bearing to the second. I think I also messed up the AoB's, I think the more you are off a 90deg AoB, the more critical the AoB estimate becomes (?? - from now on will try a protractor for AoB, but time becomes an issue also). So the two salvos missed their targets, but one torp blunders into a light cruiser in the middle of the convoy and sinks it. Go figure. ... what a game!