Removing renown and equipment

JScones · 06-05-06, 07:33 AM

This post in another thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdre Gibs

What I find totaly stupid is that you would never "BUY" any bit of equipment you would need to go to war with, ever. In all my years serving I only had to go to the Q store and say "I want a Rifle" or "Sign me out a Truck" or heaven forbid "I'll have 4 liners of 50Cal thx!" Or I'd take my bus ( thats my tank ) to the fitters an say "I need a new engine pack, old 1's shat its self" or "Change the Gun ring over, that 1's wonky". Now you notice something, I got everything for FREE!!! (Ok its still belong's to the Army but you get the idea, I dont pay for it ).

The only thing Renown should have been used for was you (the player) getting gongs and promo's and the same deal for your crew. Thats IT! All upgrades/sub hardware should be free of charge care of ol Donitz. So to that end I may every damn bit of equipment cost me a big fat Zero. I sign for bit's, I dont pay for it.

got me thinking...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

:hmm: Hmmm. I wonder whether a mod which a) removes all renown costs from all equipment upgrades AND b) randomises the availability of equipment to compensate for the resulting "easy" availability, would be a way to improve this big flaw in the game, plus providing a closer link to reality?

For example, it's 1944. You've removed all renown costs from all available equipment. Leaving it at this means a potential to create a quick and easy Uberboat, which, well, may appeal to some, but not to me.

So, offset this with the simulated effects of sabotage/factory bombings/train bombings and so on (the cause is irrelevant) so that certain equipment is not available at any given time.

"Damn. the shipment of Snorkels bound for St Nazaire were all lost in a train bombing."

Certainly more reflective of reality than the renown test. And certainly possible within SH3Cmdr.

What do people think?

and Hemisent too...

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEMISENT

I think this sounds great. As equipt becomes available you click on it and get a message about "temporarily unavailable" and a reason(multiple creative reasons randomly chosen).

Or going one better you pull into base after completing a mission with X amount of equipt. When you leave for your next patrol Commander randomly removes a piece(schnorkel, latest radar, RWR etc.)and reinstalls an older near obsolete model( or nothing at all) reason: Device removed for repairs-due to parts unavailability/lost in transit/damaged during repair, etc. boat is returned to service less the component in question. This way, the boat you brought back may be a bit different than the boat you take out.
Anyway, This is just another subtle idea to screw up your day.

What do others think of this whole concept?

@Hemisent. I can just imagine:
Kaleun: "Umm, Bernhard, where's the u-boat gone?"
Bernhard: "I don't know Kaleun, I swear I left it here! Maybe the repairmen pulled it apart and lost all the pieces? But it is a nice truck they've left us."

CB.. · 06-05-06, 07:42 AM

can't find the new thread--edit found it lol!!! so here's my two pennys worth

how about lowering the "price" of up-grades according to the players rank--renown total

[SPECIAL1]; anti radar coatings
DaysSpent=1
Nb=1
NameIdx0=1305
Year0=1944
Month0=1
NbSub0=4
Sub00=0
Sub01=1
Sub02=2
Sub03=3
Renown0=1500 <======editable?
Name0=Tarnmatte

this way the more renown you have the cheaper things get which kinda makes about the same amount of sense--at least this way you don't get demoted for up-grading the boat--

or as you say

randomly give the player an up-grade as his rank increases--automatically---not allways going to work out the way the player wants it-
perhaps give the player an editable list of upgrades he would like to be in line for getting--ie he can put in a formal request for anti sonar coatings--rather like a transfer request--and once his renown reaches a certain leevl --there's a good chance it will automatically be added to his boat at the next mission load--that possible?

U-Bones · 06-05-06, 07:49 AM

I like it, I have played with reduced or eliminated renown costs for quite some time. I typically combat the imediate uberness by simply not using some items... radar I hate, bold I have never used, sonar is good for causing CTD, deck armament upgrades are non important to my playstyle - I don't even like external torpedos...

Having availability randomly delayed/interrupted at a given base is I think a good thing. Should be a toggle though.

JScones · 06-05-06, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

I typically combat the imediate uberness by simply not using some items... radar I hate, bold I have never used, sonar is good for causing CTD, deck armament upgrades are non important to my playstyle

:rotfl:

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

Having availability randomly delayed/interrupted at a given base is I think a good thing. Should be a toggle though.

Yeah. I don't think I'd make this a part of standard SH3Cmdr cause it may break mods like NYGM TW. I suspect it would be a d/l add-on.

CB's ideas are pretty cool too. I like them, especially the "auto-upgrade" concept.

Totenkopf · 06-05-06, 08:08 AM

The way I see it, Renown should be called "Favor" realy. It is a measure of "hey! he did a lot of cool things so lets give him more". When you serve you certainly get the "typical" kit and any grunt can sign for a gun, but to get the top of the line, fresh out of R&D materials, only the best commanders recieved those merrits. Tonnage is fine but if you get one commander who sank 50,000 tons in 5 patrols
or another who sank 50,000 in 1, chances are the veteran who weathered 5 war cruises would be picked for not only a good score, but his RENOWN of combat experience.:hmm:

Personaly, I like to set renown back up for ranks and rewards alone, the "shopping" is just fun hell I even give G7e's a cost.

CB.. · 06-05-06, 08:18 AM

cheers--once you have got the renown system stabilised- so it's not going up and down like a yo-yo---you could then use it for something much more usefull---

having different patrol zones for differing renown levels--
have a system where by you keep an average expected renown figure for the period of the war (either taking into account the players start date--or by adding renown to the start renown figure)

if the player falls below this figure by a certain degree --he gets transfered-back to Wilm' in a type II for a while--simulate being assigned to a training role for couple of patrols--
or even brought up before a disciplinary council (as we know happenned late war) and has a 50/50 per cent chance of being shot for "cowardice" or similar

--

loads of stuff--could then be directly linked to the players renown total
you could even alter all the escorts in the game to a higher/lower crew rating according to the players renown--(gameplay job that rather than realism--if it could be done without major surgery--that'd be dynamic- from a purely gameplay point of view)

i dunno..

JScones · 06-05-06, 08:26 AM

Yes. I was just thinking about the possibilities that could be opened by just having renown accrue with no decrease.

It could be used to apply any "favour" (for example if +10% over the "average renown figure " concept) or "penalty" (-10%). I think a lot could be done...

CB.. · 06-05-06, 08:33 AM

it's good stuff--you could even add in specail missions---such as the take this load of sensitive material to brazil etc---strip out all the players torps and send him on a cargo haul job--

massive stuff all round!

Georg_Unterberg · 06-05-06, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

This post in another thread...

got me thinking...

and Hemisent too...

What do others think of this whole concept?

@Hemisent. I can just imagine:
Kaleun: "Umm, Bernhard, where's the u-boat gone?"
Bernhard: "I don't know Kaleun, I swear I left it here! Maybe the repairmen pulled it apart and lost all the pieces? But it is a nice truck they've left us."

Great idea! I'd love to see that in SH3Cmdr. I was waiting for the Cmdr 2.6 to do this myself by randomizing the basic.cfg renown values with a little chance that a value like 99999 would appear to make an upgrade unavailable. (I imagine this would be possible with 2.6).

It would look way better to get a message box at the start of SH3: "Items X and Y are unavailable for upgrades due to supply problems" the same as with crew transfers.
But I would beg Jscones to please make the whole thing optional as some may don't like it - and the randomizations should be configurable (in a cfg) so that we can change the odds if we like to.

All in all a fantastic idea - strong support here

HawkerT · 06-05-06, 08:53 AM

Absolutely fantastic ideas Gentlemen!

Being assigned missions and patrol areas not directly sub combat related sounds like a fantastic idea and holds an immense amount of appeal if you ask this armchair admiral.

Stuff like inserting and extracting special ops forces, transporting stuff to far regions of the world, doing special survailance of priority targets like important ports or maybe find and observe/kill priority enemy fleet assets etc.

Absolutely wonderfull stuff Gentlemen. If you can make this happen you will once again have taken this game to a new level.

Excellent ideas Gentlemen!

Umfuld · 06-05-06, 08:53 AM

Whether it's called renown, prestisge, favor, it's all the same. And it's used in many war games.

I like it, and don't consider it a 'flaw' at all. You aren't 'buying' anything. Renown doesn't equal money, it equals renown. I'm trying to get NYGM 2.0 running now. But for my first mod I picked GW because I don't understand what they were saying about a tonnage system being more realistic than the renown system. That makes no sense to me.

Ever see the movie Patton? There was a constant battle between him and Monty over fuel. And Monty usually got it, because he had more renown, or 'favor.'

But having said that, I wouldn't mind SH3 Cmdr or something else giving me the abiltiy to tinker with those settings.

Ducimus · 06-05-06, 08:58 AM

Heh, one of the first things i ever did when i started tinkering with SH3 was get rid of all renown costs. With no decrease in renown, next thing i did was skyrocket the costs of medals and promotions.

Overall, i think the most intresting use of renown has been done with NYTM tonnage war. It's an intresting idea, and so simple to implement its almost sinful. All they did was make any given ship award the same renown as its tonnage, change the gameplay settings so your at 100% realism (thereby always getting 100% "renown" for sinkings), and then change the game menu from "career renown" to "career tonnage". Then remove renown costs for equipment and jack up renown costs for medals and promos like i had done myself.

Four changes, easilly made. Although i think the foundation of all that was the ship damage mod. Now that was only one idea of using renown, and it was a good one. How else can you use/manipulate that useless renown? I honestly can't think of any. The only other variable to play is how many days a piece of equipment takes to install on your boat.

CB.. · 06-05-06, 08:59 AM

this is exciting stuff...going a bit over the top here..but here goes--

write special scripted layers containing "specail events" such as a blockade runner heading in from africa/indian ocean--and assign the player a patrol zone along it's path with an order to find it and escort it into port--

not sure wether the triggers options for missions allows for rendevous or keeping a certain ship alive etc but if it was available you could tack those triggers into the scripted layer (if they work in scripted layers?) and bingo--
very over the top i know but as a team effort this sort of thing could be revoltionary---

allowing for unlimited custom scenarios within the normal campaign gameplay--swopping the custom SCR layer into the game as and when the player hits a specific renown percentage above below the averaged level
if the triggers option doesn't work for scripted layers so you can't add specific triggers radio message etc--then i suppose a custom campaign radio message file could be used for that mission--allowing for clear instructions to be given for that particular mission-- the stock one being restored when the mission is completed--or a custom amount of renown being awarded for that mission--negating the need for accumalating tonnage or the normal patrol zone renown requirements--

have to be a major team effort that stuff --but it's good fun to imagine what is do-able with SH3 comander like this

06-05-06, 10:21 AM

I side with Totenkopf and Umfuld on this issue. I've always looked at renown as just that, and I agree that getting the latest and greatest equipment, or even a new boat, is a function of how much pull you have with the Powers That Be. I very rarely upgrade anything, and when I do having it come with a price makes me feel special. On the other hand, I also agree that once you get something you don't become less famous or less liked, so mayby renown shouldn't decrease.

On the other other hand:

Me: "I'd also like to get..."
BdU: "You've had your special treatment for this month; now get out there and kill something!"

Ducimus · 06-05-06, 11:08 AM

I wonder if its somehow possible to tie in rank and decorations with equipment availablity without having to use renown to "purchase" equipment.

For example, you start in a B model sub, the C model just becomes avialble, or is maybe in a "prototype" stage, and the kreigsmarine is looking for somone to "field test" the new gear before its "offically" made avialable. Seems to me they'd be looking for an experienced, decorated officer for that sort of "test" work.

06-05-06, 07:42 AM	#2
CB.. Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,278 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	can't find the new thread--edit found it lol!!! so here's my two pennys worth how about lowering the "price" of up-grades according to the players rank--renown total [SPECIAL1]; anti radar coatings DaysSpent=1 Nb=1 NameIdx0=1305 Year0=1944 Month0=1 NbSub0=4 Sub00=0 Sub01=1 Sub02=2 Sub03=3 Renown0=1500 <======editable? Name0=Tarnmatte this way the more renown you have the cheaper things get which kinda makes about the same amount of sense--at least this way you don't get demoted for up-grading the boat-- or as you say randomly give the player an up-grade as his rank increases--automatically---not allways going to work out the way the player wants it- perhaps give the player an editable list of upgrades he would like to be in line for getting--ie he can put in a formal request for anti sonar coatings--rather like a transfer request--and once his renown reaches a certain leevl --there's a good chance it will automatically be added to his boat at the next mission load--that possible? __________________ the world's tinyiest sh3 supermod- and other SH3/SH2 stuff http://www.ebort2.co.uk/ The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B.Yeats Last edited by CB..; 06-05-06 at 07:48 AM.

06-05-06, 08:08 AM	#5
Totenkopf Loader Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 85 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The way I see it, Renown should be called "Favor" realy. It is a measure of "hey! he did a lot of cool things so lets give him more". When you serve you certainly get the "typical" kit and any grunt can sign for a gun, but to get the top of the line, fresh out of R&D materials, only the best commanders recieved those merrits. Tonnage is fine but if you get one commander who sank 50,000 tons in 5 patrols or another who sank 50,000 in 1, chances are the veteran who weathered 5 war cruises would be picked for not only a good score, but his RENOWN of combat experience.:hmm: Personaly, I like to set renown back up for ranks and rewards alone, the "shopping" is just fun hell I even give G7e's a cost. __________________ Tötenkopf Torpedos LOS!

06-05-06, 08:18 AM	#6
CB.. Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,278 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	cheers--once you have got the renown system stabilised- so it's not going up and down like a yo-yo---you could then use it for something much more usefull--- having different patrol zones for differing renown levels-- have a system where by you keep an average expected renown figure for the period of the war (either taking into account the players start date--or by adding renown to the start renown figure) if the player falls below this figure by a certain degree --he gets transfered-back to Wilm' in a type II for a while--simulate being assigned to a training role for couple of patrols-- or even brought up before a disciplinary council (as we know happenned late war) and has a 50/50 per cent chance of being shot for "cowardice" or similar -- loads of stuff--could then be directly linked to the players renown total you could even alter all the escorts in the game to a higher/lower crew rating according to the players renown--(gameplay job that rather than realism--if it could be done without major surgery--that'd be dynamic- from a purely gameplay point of view) i dunno.. __________________ the world's tinyiest sh3 supermod- and other SH3/SH2 stuff http://www.ebort2.co.uk/ The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B.Yeats

06-05-06, 08:26 AM	#7
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Yes. I was just thinking about the possibilities that could be opened by just having renown accrue with no decrease. It could be used to apply any "favour" (for example if +10% over the "average renown figure " concept) or "penalty" (-10%). I think a lot could be done... Last edited by JScones; 06-05-06 at 08:29 AM.

06-05-06, 08:33 AM	#8
CB.. Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,278 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	it's good stuff--you could even add in specail missions---such as the take this load of sensitive material to brazil etc---strip out all the players torps and send him on a cargo haul job-- massive stuff all round! __________________ the world's tinyiest sh3 supermod- and other SH3/SH2 stuff http://www.ebort2.co.uk/ The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B.Yeats

06-05-06, 07:49 AM	#3
U-Bones Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Treading Water Posts: 847 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	I like it, I have played with reduced or eliminated renown costs for quite some time. I typically combat the imediate uberness by simply not using some items... radar I hate, bold I have never used, sonar is good for causing CTD, deck armament upgrades are non important to my playstyle - I don't even like external torpedos... Having availability randomly delayed/interrupted at a given base is I think a good thing. Should be a toggle though.

06-05-06, 08:53 AM	#10
HawkerT Swabbie Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 10 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Absolutely fantastic ideas Gentlemen! Being assigned missions and patrol areas not directly sub combat related sounds like a fantastic idea and holds an immense amount of appeal if you ask this armchair admiral. Stuff like inserting and extracting special ops forces, transporting stuff to far regions of the world, doing special survailance of priority targets like important ports or maybe find and observe/kill priority enemy fleet assets etc. Absolutely wonderfull stuff Gentlemen. If you can make this happen you will once again have taken this game to a new level. Excellent ideas Gentlemen!

06-05-06, 08:53 AM	#11
Umfuld Captain Join Date: May 2006 Location: USA Posts: 503 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Whether it's called renown, prestisge, favor, it's all the same. And it's used in many war games. I like it, and don't consider it a 'flaw' at all. You aren't 'buying' anything. Renown doesn't equal money, it equals renown. I'm trying to get NYGM 2.0 running now. But for my first mod I picked GW because I don't understand what they were saying about a tonnage system being more realistic than the renown system. That makes no sense to me. Ever see the movie Patton? There was a constant battle between him and Monty over fuel. And Monty usually got it, because he had more renown, or 'favor.' But having said that, I wouldn't mind SH3 Cmdr or something else giving me the abiltiy to tinker with those settings. __________________ Type VIIB = The Truth

06-05-06, 08:58 AM	#12
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Heh, one of the first things i ever did when i started tinkering with SH3 was get rid of all renown costs. With no decrease in renown, next thing i did was skyrocket the costs of medals and promotions. Overall, i think the most intresting use of renown has been done with NYTM tonnage war. It's an intresting idea, and so simple to implement its almost sinful. All they did was make any given ship award the same renown as its tonnage, change the gameplay settings so your at 100% realism (thereby always getting 100% "renown" for sinkings), and then change the game menu from "career renown" to "career tonnage". Then remove renown costs for equipment and jack up renown costs for medals and promos like i had done myself. Four changes, easilly made. Although i think the foundation of all that was the ship damage mod. Now that was only one idea of using renown, and it was a good one. How else can you use/manipulate that useless renown? I honestly can't think of any. The only other variable to play is how many days a piece of equipment takes to install on your boat.

06-05-06, 08:59 AM	#13
CB.. Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,278 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	this is exciting stuff...going a bit over the top here..but here goes-- write special scripted layers containing "specail events" such as a blockade runner heading in from africa/indian ocean--and assign the player a patrol zone along it's path with an order to find it and escort it into port-- not sure wether the triggers options for missions allows for rendevous or keeping a certain ship alive etc but if it was available you could tack those triggers into the scripted layer (if they work in scripted layers?) and bingo-- very over the top i know but as a team effort this sort of thing could be revoltionary--- allowing for unlimited custom scenarios within the normal campaign gameplay--swopping the custom SCR layer into the game as and when the player hits a specific renown percentage above below the averaged level if the triggers option doesn't work for scripted layers so you can't add specific triggers radio message etc--then i suppose a custom campaign radio message file could be used for that mission--allowing for clear instructions to be given for that particular mission-- the stock one being restored when the mission is completed--or a custom amount of renown being awarded for that mission--negating the need for accumalating tonnage or the normal patrol zone renown requirements-- have to be a major team effort that stuff --but it's good fun to imagine what is do-able with SH3 comander like this __________________ the world's tinyiest sh3 supermod- and other SH3/SH2 stuff http://www.ebort2.co.uk/ The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. W.B.Yeats

06-05-06, 10:21 AM	#14
Sailor Steve Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I side with Totenkopf and Umfuld on this issue. I've always looked at renown as just that, and I agree that getting the latest and greatest equipment, or even a new boat, is a function of how much pull you have with the Powers That Be. I very rarely upgrade anything, and when I do having it come with a price makes me feel special. On the other hand, I also agree that once you get something you don't become less famous or less liked, so mayby renown shouldn't decrease. On the other other hand: Me: "I'd also like to get..." BdU: "You've had your special treatment for this month; now get out there and kill something!"

06-05-06, 11:08 AM	#15
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I wonder if its somehow possible to tie in rank and decorations with equipment availablity without having to use renown to "purchase" equipment. For example, you start in a B model sub, the C model just becomes avialble, or is maybe in a "prototype" stage, and the kreigsmarine is looking for somone to "field test" the new gear before its "offically" made avialable. Seems to me they'd be looking for an experienced, decorated officer for that sort of "test" work.