Dismay and fury in the armed forces

[Skybird]

Dismay and fury

Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald discusses official Washington's continuing misapprehension and dhimmitude:

The army is full of officers and men who, even if they once were sturdily willing to do what they saw as their duty, after their second or third tour in Iraq have come away, despite their best efforts at times to remain quiet about it, disgusted with the waste and the stupidity of the effort. They are now full of justified loathing not only for the Sunni insurgents or the Mahdi army boys, but also for so many in the general population who clearly are collaborating with those trying to kill the Americans, and who do so little, so unwillingly, to defend their own "Iraq." So as the army becomes demoralized, more and more people are realizing that the Administration did not commit a few "mistakes" in the execution of the war, but rather misconceived the entire war as "a war on terror" -- rather than as a war of self-defense against Islamic jihad. To understand this would mean to understand that no Muslim state can be permitted to acquire weapons of mass destruction, and that Iraq was, despite all this "secularist" business, a Muslim state, its not unrepresentative regime infused with the attitudes and atmospherics of Islam in the version that we all "Pan-Arabism."
And so now many of the best young officers leave, and soldiers do not re-enlist, and the recruitment standards are dangerously lowered, and those who signed up for the Reserves or the National Guard in a burst of patriotism in 2002 and 2003 are disgusted by the behavior of so many of the generals who "do not get it" and keep prating about "winning hearts and minds" in Iraq, or Afghanistan. They are disgusted by leaders who are afraid to state clearly that not only did the Administration fail to identify the enemy, it also got Iraq entirely wrong. Those leaders miscomprehended the depth of the Shi'a resentment of Sunnis, which is not merely a result of Saddam Hussein, nor of the past 50 years (i.e., since the coup that overthrew the monarchy and Nuri as-Said) of Iraq's history, but of 1300 years of Sunnis and Shi'a being at each other's throats. They failed as well to realize that the Sunni Arabs will never reconcile themselves, whether in or out of Iraq, to the Land of the Two Rivers being dominated by Shi’ites. The Sunni Arabs will never be disabused of their crazed conviction that they constitute 42%, and not 19%, of the population.


Nonetheless, the Administration keeps chasing the will-o'-the-wisp of an "Iraqi" army and an "Iraqi" police force. It risks the lives of American soldiers who are told to train those "Iraqi" forces and even be embedded with them. But the notion that Sunni Arabs and Shi'a Arabs, and Arabs and Kurds, could fight in a cohesive unit, trusting one another with their lives, is nonsense. And the Americans there have no ability to detect the Muslim they can trust from the one they can't. They certainly cannot know which Sunni Arab will suddenly turn on his Shi'a fellows, or vice-versa, or both, at different times, or else will turn on the American whom equally they detest. All this is making officers and men sacrifice possibly their lives on the altar of Administration stupidity, timidity, cupidity, and obstinate refusal to see how wrong it is -- 180 degrees wrong – to decline to defend ourselves by exploiting, instead of trying against all odds to heal, those ethnic and sectarian fissures.
And now that the same madness is reflected in the State Department. Had Ambassador John Evans, the U.S. Ambassador to Armenia who was fired for referring to the Armenian genocide, not been forced to apologize for speaking the truth, had he not been forced to resign, had Turkish protests been met with steely indifference, it would have been good for American relations with Turkey. The Turks must in any number of ways be made to realize that a series of events has demonstrated that Turkey is not the ally that the United States thought it was. These include its refusal to allow the fourth division to enter Iraq from bases in Turkey, and the disgusting remarks of an important Turksih official declaring American soldiers in Iraq "worse than Nazis," and the Turkish film that became a box-office smash depicting those soldiers as Nazis (and with a Jewish doctor who harvests organs from Iraqis supposedly murdered at Abu Ghraib prison). Then there was the best-sellerdom of Mein Kampf in Turkey. All of this shows that the Turkey of the Ankara generals (it just a few years ago that both Douglas Feith and Richard Perle were registered agents of Turkey) is a thing of the past under Erdogan. Kemalism is transient; Islam is forever. That is the lesson of Turkey. And if Islam is not bound hand and foot, as Ataturk tried to do, it will keep coming back, like Rasputin.

It was important to signal to both Armenia and Turkey that the genocide would be called what it is. It was important for Ambassador Evans to be celebrated. It was even more important to begin to tell the Turkish government and people that they have to face up to this history, and in so doing, should put the blame right where it belongs: not on some fault inherent in Turks, but on Islam, which made Muslim Turks willing to massacre Christian Armenians whom they deemed in violation of their dhimma. In that way, secularist Turks can claim that in taming or distancing themselves from Islam, they have tried to tame the ideological source for those mass murders in 1894-96 and then the later genocide (in its intent and scope, by many of those involved) of 1915-1920.

In the State Department, among the decent, there must be dismay. And at the European desks, there must be alarm at how the islamization of Europe proceeds without any signaling from the American government that it understands this problem, and a sentiment that NATO must meet (without Turkey) to discuss this matter, that it cannot wait.

Dismay among the soldiers. Dismay among the diplomats.

And fury, absolute fury, among the American people who watch the idiocy continue.

[squigian]

I bet you a Type XXI that Iraq will descend into a fully fledged civil war within 5 years of troops leaving, and end up with a dictator again. I also bet that Iran will invade again using the excuses of Japan invading Manchuria in twenty years.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by squigian

I bet you a Type XXI that Iraq will descend into a fully fledged civil war within 5 years of troops leaving, and end up with a dictator again. I also bet that Iran will invade again using the excuses of Japan invading Manchuria in twenty years.

Over a year ago I had a debate with someone where I argued that it already IS in a state of civil war. Lots of laugther back then. Don't hear any laughter anymore today. I also received sarcastic comments in the last three years when i wrote topics dealing with the psychological consequences for the single and maybe traumatized soldier (of which there are many tens of thoisuands, you better believe that), and the loss of faith and trust inside the armed forces that had to be expected once the real dimension of the lies and the foolish illusions of the leaders gets realized by the men and women in uniform.
And today I dare to make another prediction: that the loss of trust in this critical phase of history will have longer-lasting and more hurting consequences for America and the West than it was like after Vietnam. The army's spirit will feel for many many years what this adminsitration has done to them. I call it - and other details of the acting of this administration - high treason, and I mean it exactly like that. We are confronted with the most dangerous and greatest enemy maybe of all human history, Islam, who only knows one goal: to bring down all civilization that is not its's own cult. America in special and the West in general simply cannot afford such unscrupulous and incompetent idiots in office. But they keep popping up like mushrooms, in all capitals.

Do the crowds in the street never get tired of all this...??? Is there no revolutionary spirit left in anyone...??? No understanding of the need to rise and pick up a fight, which essentially is for nothing else than our survival...??? Is TV and vanilla cream in the refrigerator so much more important...???

[The Avon Lady]

I don't see the problem in Iraq as being so much a potential civil war as it will be a Shi'ite Sha'ria state in alliance with Iran.

The Iraqi Sunnis were a major minority to begin with and apparently any of them with half a brain and the money are emigrating to anywhere that will take them.

So, even if a civil war does break out, I believe it will be relatively shortlived, as I would expect the Shi'ite majority will waste no time in massacring the Sunnis.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

I don't see the problem in Iraq as being so much a potential civil war as it will be a Shi'ite Sha'ria state in alliance with Iran.

The Iraqi Sunnis were a major minority to begin with and apparently any of them with half a brain and the money are emigrating to anywhere that will take them.

So, even if a civil war does break out, I believe it will be relatively shortlived, as I would expect the Shi'ite majority will waste no time in massacring the Sunnis.

A year ago I would've argued against that. Not now.

PD

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Do the crowds in the street never get tired of all this...??? Is there no revolutionary spirit left in anyone...??? No understanding of the need to rise and pick up a fight, which essentially is for nothing else than our survival...??? Is TV and vanilla cream in the refrigerator so much more important...???

After all those years of intense effort to make the population docile and stupid?

Originally Posted by Skybird

Because of that kind of reasonable thinking about the current situation, we currently get overrun. Islam is not communism. Islam is not the Cold War.You cannot tame Islam. As long as it is there, it will keep coming again and again and again, until it all is it's own. We are braking. We give ground. We have run out of time. We are loosing. We are the prey. And you continue to philosophize, like so many others. Alea jacta est. It's hopeless, then.

Another important difference: most of those who came to us from communist countries did it because they wanted to get away from communism and thought our society was superior. The opposite is the case for many muslim immigrants.


By the way, would it be possible to give links to the original source of the article when you post one?

[Skybird]

Since I have quoted often from Dhimmiwatch now, I assumed that to be general knowledge, especially since it also is identified in the headline

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Since I have quoted often from Dhimmiwatch now, I assumed that to be general knowledge, especially since it also is identified in the headline

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Since I have quoted often from Dhimmiwatch now, I assumed that to be general knowledge, especially since it also is identified in the headline

And I did find it there (after first searching the jihadwatch main page), but it's just nice to have an immedate link to the source. I'm also thinking about the newcomers to your posts

[TteFAboB]

If George W. Bush would receive me, I could tell him he could actually be spreading Democracy and Freedom instead of using that only as a slogan, and be remembered by future generations as one of the greatest leaders of the 21st century. Soldiers would not die for Xiites, but for all people, money would not be wasted in a waste-land, but in regions where richness is growing and has the potential to expand beyond the horizon. Easy, quick wars, against oppositions less numbered than Saddam's deserters alone, no Urban nightmare, no terrorism, no Al Qaeda. Why, why Iraq instead of this?! He could embark on missions that would give him RESULTS in enough time to rub in the face of his opponents before leaving office! Sure it's great to kill Saddam and put a Democracy in Iraq, but killing Saddam is easy, the latter could only, possibly, in theory and with all the good decisions and opportunities taken, become real in what, perhaps, 20 years? You can't even consider general elections, before anything remotely close to an election you need 2 terms of Ataturk ruling, or more, not because an enlightened despot is tolerated, but because there is no alternative, a Democracy doesn't blossom naturally, especially not from the ashes of Islam, it must be constructed and then maintained.

Damned be the Islamists who monopolize the attention of the globe. They are only important because they are a threat, not because anyone should care. But in truth, they are a strong enemy, so strong that it can't be defeated by the American army and the little Allies alone. The first step to defeating Islam is not even military, but a strike against the disinformation media and academy, we'll only have a chance when most of us know what we're dealing with.

[CCIP]

I think defeating Islam is too lofty a goal. The idea of defeating a religion/social structure is a bit too extreme in the modern world. Even with the Cold War, the key word was not defeating communism but containing it. Nor was it defeated, but, as in the case of China, it's not exactly an immediate danger.

I think it's all too obvious to say that America can't defeat it or even legitimize attempts to do so under its moral ideology. On the other hand, containing it is a more realistic goal, and something that could be done - not with troops, perhaps, but with realistic policies nonetheless. You've learned to live with a billion communists by adapting a pragmatic approach to them and pressuring them where needed; perhaps likewise, if it's recognized as a similarly-conflicting ideology, you can live with a billion Muslims too.

I'm not a fan of Islamic fundamentalist values, but I'm not a fan of "let's bomb them", either.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I think defeating Islam is too lofty a goal. The idea of defeating a religion/social structure is a bit too extreme in the modern world. Even with the Cold War, the key word was not defeating communism but containing it. Nor was it defeated, but, as in the case of China, it's not exactly an immediate danger.

I think it's all too obvious to say that America can't defeat it or even legitimize attempts to do so under its moral ideology. On the other hand, containing it is a more realistic goal, and something that could be done - not with troops, perhaps, but with realistic policies nonetheless. You've learned to live with a billion communists by adapting a pragmatic approach to them and pressuring them where needed; perhaps likewise, if it's recognized as a similarly-conflicting ideology, you can live with a billion Muslims too.

Because of that kind of reasonable thinking about the current situation, we currently get overrun. Islam is not communism. Islam is not the Cold War.You cannot tame Islam. As long as it is there, it will keep coming again and again and again, until it all is it's own. We are braking. We give ground. We have run out of time. We are loosing. We are the prey. And you continue to philosophize, like so many others. Alea jacta est. It's hopeless, then.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Because of that kind of reasonable thinking about the current situation, we currently get overrun. Islam is not communism. Islam is not the Cold War.You cannot tame Islam. As long as it is there, it will keep coming again and again and again, until it all is it's own. We are braking. We give ground. We have run out of time. We are loosing. We are the prey. And you continue to philosophize, like so many others. Alea jacta est. It's hopeless, then.

It's quite unlike you to suggest that "unreasonable thinking" would lead to a better solution here.

There's perfectly reasonable solutions to this even if you reject any parallels with the Cold War. You can't tame it, alright, but what's the solution here? Again, "Bomb Muslims" should be neither justifyable nor practical. And even strong, assertive action should be reasonable. Otherwise, we become nothing but the bloodthirsty fanatics we so oppose.

You know my stance on this, but losing ground or not, we aren't living in a world where we can suddenly raise a banner of "Clash of Civilizations: Mortal Combat" and feel perfectly right about it. There's perfectly political, economic, and other conservative means to scale down the actual growing power of this threat; the biggest first step would be recognizing it as such and then acting out of reason.

I'm not going to go out to war against extreme Muslims, thank you, I had to leave one country already to avoid doing just that.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CCIP

There's perfectly political, economic, and other conservative means to scale down the actual growing power of this threat; the biggest first step would be recognizing it as such and then acting out of reason.

All right then. In fourty years the majority of French population will be Muslim, the simple charming mathematics of birth rates. some time later, the European countries will follow. In a hundred years, at the latest, Europe will be Muslim by majority. Some time later it will be completely Muslim - Islam does not tolerate coexistence with seconds. european culture will vanish, the social system will collaps, the values our ancestors have bitterly suffered and fought for to overcome in a cutting of the power of the churches, braking the power of the feudal system, enforcing a time of enlightenment, overcoming kings and empires - all this will have been in vain. When this will happen, guys like you already will have gone much earlier, for you will have not have had the freedom to think like you do since much earlier. All you do is winnig time - for them.It is a bit less-academical, but you saw the text I linked to short ago?http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...p?t=93702There is a reason why the last world war against tyranny and totalitarianism was fought. That reason today is forgotten, or perverted for some local stupid adventures like Iraq or Afghanistan.The sad thing is that some people think they still know more about islam even if islam's representatives tells them directly and without any hiding: "We will turn your laws against you, and we will rule you because of your own laws. your land and your life is Allah'S land and Allah'S life, that is why we rightfully demand to possess you. There cannot be muslim life without complete sub,misson to quran and sharia." Okay, let's be smart. Be reasonable and calm. Let's try to outthink them. Our leaders think in a ruling term's length, their decimal system ends with "three", than it is campaign year. Islams thinks in centuries. and while we think our calm and educated and reasonable thoughts, Muslim communities slowly but surely breed us to death. We philosophize - they act. That's a decent way to fall. Calm, and reaonable. The melancholy in it is sweet and bitter like dandelion wine. And it has style. No aggression, please. No uproar, and please stoip yelling, that noise helps noone. Remember, the string quartett is said to have played during the sinking of the Titanic until the end.BTW, where did I say: bomb the Muslims...? I figure you give that phrase only to make it easier for you to blame me.