Compressed Air.

Ducimus · 05-10-06, 08:13 PM

The following is a repost from the other SH3 forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_espo

I did a test of Compressed air. It seems that even though you get the message that supply is depleted, you still hear emergency blow sounds.

Also, regular orders to surface do not use up compressed air, torpedo launch does not either....

What function in game does emer surface do?? Is there any reason to monitor compressed air levels??

Good point and worthy of discussion in the mod forums. Launching torpedos should use compressed air.

Surfacing should most definatly use compressed air if your not moving foward with your E motors.

The argument there is the sub is at neutral boyancancy so using the hydroplanes should be sufficent until you break surface. At which point you'd need to blow the tanks dry to get the deck out of the water. If your standing still then you'd need positive boyance to rise. That means blowing some water out of the ballast tanks.

Ducimus · 05-11-06, 04:00 PM

Nobody's disturbed , bothered, or at the least bit intrested in why compressed air isn't used by the game except to emergency surface?

Although i could swear at one point surfacing without the use of your motors would use compressed air, but i havent seen that behavior in a long time. Maybe editing some variable in the sim or zon file effects this somehow?

Rosencrantz · 05-11-06, 04:13 PM

I'm not a modder but wondering what happend to compressed air when the game was build up? Everyone knows it's one of the most essential parts of every subsim. Well, in last months Devs must be busy, so maybe "we" changed compressed air to dynamic campaign?

:hmm:

-RC-

booger2005 · 05-11-06, 04:43 PM

This is one of those many little realism things where if I remember SHII was better at. But, if I remember firing torps did not significantly impact the amount of compressed air, ie you would by far run out of torpedoes before air even if you blew balast once or so.

I've blown ballast many times, but everytime the career/mission was not long for the world since I was damaged by DCs and then became cannon fodder on the surface. So, having enough compressed air to fire torps after a ballast blow hasn't been a problem...

Ducimus · 05-11-06, 04:54 PM

I dunno about anyone else, but the needle in my compressed air guage never budges, unless i press the "E" key for emergency surface.

Somethings not right about that.

Der Teddy Bar · 05-11-06, 06:56 PM

Ducimus,
Just saw this.

We are disturbed , bothered and intrested however it is just not possible to do anything about it as it is hard coded.

Cheers,

Teddy

Ducimus · 05-11-06, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

Ducimus,
Just saw this.

We are disturbed , bothered and intrested however it is just not possible to do anything about it as it is hard coded.

Cheers,

Teddy

I was afraid of that.

X 10

mike_espo · 05-11-06, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

Ducimus,
Just saw this.

We are disturbed , bothered and intrested however it is just not possible to do anything about it as it is hard coded.

Cheers,

Teddy

Awww..

Say it aint so.....

Alyebard · 05-12-06, 02:08 AM

Hard Coded

and the dev team never saw a really sub or ask about it

mike_espo · 05-12-06, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alyebard

Hard Coded

and the dev team never saw a really sub or ask about it

Yes..to a non programmer, it seems incomprehensible that sims are released as they are.

Its only thanks to talented modders that the game is as realistic as it is, but somethings are unfixable.

Der Teddy Bar · 05-12-06, 06:10 PM

Guys,
As a modder and someone who strives for a more realistic SHIII, I have nothing but admiration for the SHIII Dev Team.

Things are far from perfect, sometimes it is because of poor design, sometimes it is because of unseen behaviour, sometimes it is a time contrant and beyond thier control and in some places just bad code.

We have some things that are a massive step forward and ground breaking, we also have in some places taken a few steps back.

But... For the most part, as a package, SHIII is a great step forward. Could it have been better, most certainly... However, it is the best submarine simulation warts and all.

Jungman · 05-13-06, 02:02 AM

The compressed air use is not modelled very well.

It is possible to get the deck above water by using low pressure pumps to pump out the water from the ballast tanks once you break the surface somewhat as is done with modern subs.

Wether the Uboot used this method as was done later in more modern subs is unknown/ don't remember.

You can also move up and down (albeit quite slowly) without use of air released via bubbles permantely lost. Just use a high pressure pump to 'push' some of the water out of the smaller negative bouyancy tank to rise (the water volume replaced by low pressure air). Then you can pump the air back into the high pressure tank to go back to neutral bouyancy after a depth change.

This negative bouyancy tank is only about 10% the size of the main and was in the Uboot. Useful also for the that quick dive in cas of enemies. Thus the myth that the boot always 'sinks'. I think they did that on purpose. True neutral bouyancy with forward motion to stabilze the boat is quite a trick (so some forward motion was needed) other than that you would have to use pumps to constantly try to maintain the neutral boyouncy via the negative ballast tank. That proved to waste alot of precious battery power and such (mechanical wear), much better to just move forward just slightly with the hydroplanes.

But I do not think the old Uboot used those more modern inventions due to extra complexity. I read an article on this about year ago..the Uboot could do quite a bit without using up high pressure air -to a limit.

Of course it makes for more 'movie style' gameplay to use up alot more HP air . And using up HP air is the only way to make a FAST change in depth even for the more modern diesel subs.

If you wanteed to stay under in a real Uboot at a certain depth, you would run out of breathing air, or run out of electric power and/or HP air trying to maintain you depth. Eventually you would have to float up to surface or sink down a crush to death.

In game, you can stay under for a long until until your breathing air runs out. Even that is not modelled for the number of men on board. I should say you had alot a HP pressure air to release in to the Uboat for air to breath, but you had to have a way to get rid of the CO2 build up. So if you vented the bad air, the enemy destroyer may see your air bubbles. It was not good either way.

mike_espo · 05-13-06, 05:01 PM

Didn't mean to offend..

I just think a sim is only as good as the AI. Escort AI is lacking somewhat. Then never do a ASDIC sweep after losing contact. Which is a major oversight.

Also, compressed air and damaged systems still work unless destroyed. I have no problems surfacing or changing depth even when bowplanes are damaged, or not working, or if compressed air is depleted.....Bold also works even if launcher is destroyed.

I should think these should have been addressed before release.

Jungman · 05-15-06, 04:24 PM

On that note mike_espo, I totally agree.

Simple little things I think they could have fixed.

05-12-06, 02:08 AM	#9
Alyebard Medic Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Girona - Catalunya Posts: 164 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Hard Coded and the dev team never saw a really sub or ask about it __________________ Navigare necesse est, vivere non est necesse Navegar 'es necessari. Viure no

05-11-06, 04:00 PM	#2
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Nobody's disturbed , bothered, or at the least bit intrested in why compressed air isn't used by the game except to emergency surface? Although i could swear at one point surfacing without the use of your motors would use compressed air, but i havent seen that behavior in a long time. Maybe editing some variable in the sim or zon file effects this somehow?

05-11-06, 04:13 PM	#3
Rosencrantz Grey Wolf Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 758 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 0	I'm not a modder but wondering what happend to compressed air when the game was build up? Everyone knows it's one of the most essential parts of every subsim. Well, in last months Devs must be busy, so maybe "we" changed compressed air to dynamic campaign? :hmm: -RC-

05-11-06, 04:43 PM	#4
booger2005 Engineer Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Akron Ohio Posts: 204 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	This is one of those many little realism things where if I remember SHII was better at. But, if I remember firing torps did not significantly impact the amount of compressed air, ie you would by far run out of torpedoes before air even if you blew balast once or so. I've blown ballast many times, but everytime the career/mission was not long for the world since I was damaged by DCs and then became cannon fodder on the surface. So, having enough compressed air to fire torps after a ballast blow hasn't been a problem...

05-11-06, 04:54 PM	#5
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I dunno about anyone else, but the needle in my compressed air guage never budges, unless i press the "E" key for emergency surface. Somethings not right about that.

05-11-06, 06:56 PM	#6
Der Teddy Bar Blade Master Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,388 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Ducimus, Just saw this. We are disturbed , bothered and intrested however it is just not possible to do anything about it as it is hard coded. Cheers, Teddy

05-12-06, 06:10 PM	#11
Der Teddy Bar Blade Master Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,388 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Guys, As a modder and someone who strives for a more realistic SHIII, I have nothing but admiration for the SHIII Dev Team. Things are far from perfect, sometimes it is because of poor design, sometimes it is because of unseen behaviour, sometimes it is a time contrant and beyond thier control and in some places just bad code. We have some things that are a massive step forward and ground breaking, we also have in some places taken a few steps back. But... For the most part, as a package, SHIII is a great step forward. Could it have been better, most certainly... However, it is the best submarine simulation warts and all.

05-13-06, 02:02 AM	#12
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The compressed air use is not modelled very well. It is possible to get the deck above water by using low pressure pumps to pump out the water from the ballast tanks once you break the surface somewhat as is done with modern subs. Wether the Uboot used this method as was done later in more modern subs is unknown/ don't remember. You can also move up and down (albeit quite slowly) without use of air released via bubbles permantely lost. Just use a high pressure pump to 'push' some of the water out of the smaller negative bouyancy tank to rise (the water volume replaced by low pressure air). Then you can pump the air back into the high pressure tank to go back to neutral bouyancy after a depth change. This negative bouyancy tank is only about 10% the size of the main and was in the Uboot. Useful also for the that quick dive in cas of enemies. Thus the myth that the boot always 'sinks'. I think they did that on purpose. True neutral bouyancy with forward motion to stabilze the boat is quite a trick (so some forward motion was needed) other than that you would have to use pumps to constantly try to maintain the neutral boyouncy via the negative ballast tank. That proved to waste alot of precious battery power and such (mechanical wear), much better to just move forward just slightly with the hydroplanes. But I do not think the old Uboot used those more modern inventions due to extra complexity. I read an article on this about year ago..the Uboot could do quite a bit without using up high pressure air -to a limit. Of course it makes for more 'movie style' gameplay to use up alot more HP air . And using up HP air is the only way to make a FAST change in depth even for the more modern diesel subs. If you wanteed to stay under in a real Uboot at a certain depth, you would run out of breathing air, or run out of electric power and/or HP air trying to maintain you depth. Eventually you would have to float up to surface or sink down a crush to death. In game, you can stay under for a long until until your breathing air runs out. Even that is not modelled for the number of men on board. I should say you had alot a HP pressure air to release in to the Uboat for air to breath, but you had to have a way to get rid of the CO2 build up. So if you vented the bad air, the enemy destroyer may see your air bubbles. It was not good either way.

05-13-06, 05:01 PM	#13
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Didn't mean to offend.. I just think a sim is only as good as the AI. Escort AI is lacking somewhat. Then never do a ASDIC sweep after losing contact. Which is a major oversight. Also, compressed air and damaged systems still work unless destroyed. I have no problems surfacing or changing depth even when bowplanes are damaged, or not working, or if compressed air is depleted.....Bold also works even if launcher is destroyed. I should think these should have been addressed before release.

05-15-06, 04:24 PM	#14
Jungman Samurai Navy Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Iowa, USA Posts: 596 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	On that note mike_espo, I totally agree. Simple little things I think they could have fixed.