AI escort search tactics

mike_espo · 05-04-06, 04:54 PM

I am starting to see a pattern....It seems escorts first run in, with Active sonar pinging away, attack vigorously, then they just listen.

Then after 30-45 minutes or so, they lose contact, do not try to regain contact by using Active sonar, and leave....

I usually dive to 180m. Never hear pinging again. Scenario is in summer 1943

Is there a way to edit the sim. cfg or sensors. cfg. to alter the way escorts search? Kinda unrealistic.....

I have RuB 1.45, SH3 Commander 2.5 and various sound mods.

Ducimus · 05-04-06, 05:01 PM

Lower the wave factor, or attunement, i forget which.

See thread in mod forum on, "getting rid of pinpoint drops".

(edit: AH HAH, found it! I did alot of testing on AI passive and posted my results in it)

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45370

AI doesnt normally start active sonar unless they had a passive contact first.

The AI's Passive contact is like....... by default.. nearly deaf. . How large the waves are plays a BIG factor in their detection.

gouldjg · 05-04-06, 05:12 PM

I was reading that contact was checked for 15 minutes in realife and if lost the DD then went into search pattern mode i.e. 4 mile circular sweeps etc. I think the devs had no time to fully install a search pattern into the games DD.

All that can be done at the moment,

1. extend lost contact time, sh3 commander already has this randomised to a max of 45 min. Some say that the convoy will be left unguarded if longer.

I have set mine to be between 25 - 60 min and altered my sensors so that hydro is quite sensitive as well as having different arcs set and beams. I make it a rule not to chase a convoy if I am hunted by the DD whilst attacking it.

It is the only compromise I could think of.

With randomised events, you can set it so occasionally you have a better DD on your tail i.e. he can look further and possibly deeper.

There is currently no way to make the DD behave smarter without compromising the historical events.

Heibges · 05-04-06, 05:47 PM

Can you increase AI Hydrophone Sensitivity in

SH3/Data/CFG/Sim

Nightowl · 05-04-06, 06:23 PM

[quote="mike_espo"]I am starting to see a pattern....It seems escorts first run in, with Active sonar pinging away, attack vigorously, then they just listen.

Then after 30-45 minutes or so, they lose contact, do not try to regain contact by using Active sonar, and leave....

I usually dive to 180m. Never hear pinging again. Scenario is in summer 1943

Maybe you're hiding under a warm/cold (Thermal Layer) of water and don't realise it? -Nightowl

Ducimus · 05-04-06, 07:18 PM

Seriously guys, alot of this has been beaten to death in that above linked thread in my last post. Alot of good reading and ideas in there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heibges

Can you increase AI Hydrophone Sensitivity in

SH3/Data/CFG/Sim

THis might answer your question, but im reposting this primarly for myself, cause im gonna edit my sim.cfg when i get home

If i remember correctly, i was thinking of these in terms of squelch and RF gain.

Quote:

my two favorite sim.cfg setings:

Here is my understanding of them. Lets imagine thse are knobs you can turn on a peice of equipment like a stereo.

Quote:

Noise factor:(stock setting is 1.0)
1+---------------------0.5---------------------0
Low volume-----------middle-----------------Full blast!
DEAF---------------------------------------------UBER

Quote:

Wave factor:(stock setting is 0.5)
0------0.001------------------0.5--------------------1
Off------Low volume-------------------------Full blast!
DEAF------------------------middle ---------------UBER

edit: looking over my own "chart" id try 0.8 to 0.75 noise factor and maybe like, 0.6 to 0.65 wave factor, or leave it alone entirely.

That should turn up the AI's passive detection, but not make them too uber. Remember the calmer the weather, the harder it is to evade.

mike_espo · 05-04-06, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

AI doesnt normally start active sonar unless they had a passive contact first.

Wow! that sounds backwards.

I am reading a book U-boat Killer by Donald MaGyntire: an Ex RN escort group commander. He states they never used hydrophones..as it was a throwback to WW1...ASDIC was always the preferred method for detecting U-boats.

What would happen if in the SIM.cfg file, you were to edit the hydrophone speed factor? What would that do?

Also, what about changing the Sonar parameters? What does Detection time and lose time mean?

thanks

Ducimus · 05-04-06, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_espo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

AI doesnt normally start active sonar unless they had a passive contact first.

Wow! that sounds backwards.

I am reading a book U-boat Killer by Donald MaGyntire: an Ex RN escort group commander. He states they never used hydrophones..as it was a throwback to WW1...ASDIC was always the preferred method for detecting U-boats.

Well in a way it makes sense. Not much point in banging away with active sonar when your not even sure a subs in the area to begin with. Now if they knew there was a uboat in the area, then ya, active sonar all the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_espo

What would happen if in the SIM.cfg file, you were to edit the hydrophone speed factor? What would that do?

Hydrophone speed factor is the maximum speed at which a escort can hear things with passive sonar. For example if your hydrophone speed factor is say..... 10, then at 10 knots or below he can hear. 11 kts and above he can't. Increase speed factor to 25-30 and he'll never be deaf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_espo

Also, what about changing the Sonar parameters? What does Detection time and lose time mean?

thanks

Detection time im unsure of. Probably the amount of time that has to transpire for him to see you. Say, if you leave your periscope up for X amount of time.

Lost contract time is the amount of time that has to transpire that he hasnt detected you before he'll give up and go home. In otherwords if your lost contact time is 15.. you have to hide from him for 15 mins before helll leave. An intresting note here is that when a ship detects a uboat, it automatically sends out a signal to every thing in i think a 20 KM radius. Anything in the area will respond. but it will stop that response after the lost contact time if it hasnt found you.

For example out of 5 escorts, 4 go back to the convoy and one remains. He regains contact. The other 4 escorts will come back to rejoin the fight. However if your lost contact time is 5 mins, and your more then 5 mins away.. they'll give up and rejoin the convoy after 5 mins.

Personnaly i have my lost contact time set at 45 mins. So if im detected any nearby ship or plane will come to find me.

45 mins gives them plenty of time. its the 10-15 lost contact time is why you can cruise up and down the coast with relative impunity.

mike_espo · 05-04-06, 08:32 PM

Hey Ducimus, I tried to edit the SIM. CFG file, it won't let me....

Keeps changing back to original values.

I am using notepad.....

Keelbuster · 05-04-06, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_espo

I am starting to see a pattern....It seems escorts first run in, with Active sonar pinging away, attack vigorously, then they just listen.

Then after 30-45 minutes or so, they lose contact, do not try to regain contact by using Active sonar, and leave....

I usually dive to 180m. Never hear pinging again. Scenario is in summer 1943

Is there a way to edit the sim. cfg or sensors. cfg. to alter the way escorts search? Kinda unrealistic.....

I have RuB 1.45, SH3 Commander 2.5 and various sound mods.

ever been caught? They'll flip you, they'll flip you for real.

I played RuB 1.45 for at least 2 campaigns, both of which ended violently.

Detection is a binary thing - if you are detected, then there's a good chance they won't lose you (especially in 1943) and you will be sunk. If they don't detect you, you will most likely escape.

Do you want it to be more gamey?

Kb

Ducimus · 05-04-06, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_espo

Hey Ducimus, I tried to edit the SIM. CFG file, it won't let me....

Keeps changing back to original values.

I am using notepad.....

Your in the
sh3/data/cfg directory ?
or the
sh3/mod/data/cfg directory ?

The former works right away, the later, you have to disable, and renable in JSGME if thats what your using.

If not using JSGME, then edit it, and then set the file to read only so the game can't write to it.

mike_espo · 05-04-06, 08:54 PM

Thanks!

That is why....

Regarding the "lose time" setting in the sim .cfg....the value is 30sec... is yours at 15min?

Ducimus · 05-04-06, 09:01 PM

I could be mistaken but i think the Lostcontact time is in minutes not seconds.

Whats the default, like 10 or 15? (assuming the sim.cfg is vanilla and unmodded) If so, just put in a 45. If not, just assume im full of crap and put in something else :P

But im pretty sure its in minutes, ive used a lostcontact time of 5 for testing purposes in the u505 mission and it seemed to be about 5 mins before the AI gave up after it lost contact with me.

05-04-06, 04:54 PM	#1
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	AI escort search tactics I am starting to see a pattern....It seems escorts first run in, with Active sonar pinging away, attack vigorously, then they just listen. Then after 30-45 minutes or so, they lose contact, do not try to regain contact by using Active sonar, and leave.... I usually dive to 180m. Never hear pinging again. Scenario is in summer 1943 Is there a way to edit the sim. cfg or sensors. cfg. to alter the way escorts search? Kinda unrealistic..... I have RuB 1.45, SH3 Commander 2.5 and various sound mods.

05-04-06, 05:12 PM	#3
gouldjg Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 881 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I was reading that contact was checked for 15 minutes in realife and if lost the DD then went into search pattern mode i.e. 4 mile circular sweeps etc. I think the devs had no time to fully install a search pattern into the games DD. All that can be done at the moment, 1. extend lost contact time, sh3 commander already has this randomised to a max of 45 min. Some say that the convoy will be left unguarded if longer. I have set mine to be between 25 - 60 min and altered my sensors so that hydro is quite sensitive as well as having different arcs set and beams. I make it a rule not to chase a convoy if I am hunted by the DD whilst attacking it. It is the only compromise I could think of. With randomised events, you can set it so occasionally you have a better DD on your tail i.e. he can look further and possibly deeper. There is currently no way to make the DD behave smarter without compromising the historical events. __________________ My Mods Gouldjg's Crew Ability Balancing Mod for SH5 1.2 http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=169630

05-04-06, 05:47 PM	#4
Heibges Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 1,633 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Can you increase AI Hydrophone Sensitivity in SH3/Data/CFG/Sim __________________ U.Kdt.Hdb B. I. 28) This possibility of using the hydrophone to help in detecting surface ships should, however, be restricted to those cases where the submarine is unavoidably compelled to stay below the surface. http://www.hackworth.com/

05-04-06, 06:23 PM	#5
Nightowl Mate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bushnell, FL Posts: 60 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Re: AI escort search tactics [quote="mike_espo"]I am starting to see a pattern....It seems escorts first run in, with Active sonar pinging away, attack vigorously, then they just listen. Then after 30-45 minutes or so, they lose contact, do not try to regain contact by using Active sonar, and leave.... I usually dive to 180m. Never hear pinging again. Scenario is in summer 1943 Maybe you're hiding under a warm/cold (Thermal Layer) of water and don't realise it? -Nightowl

05-04-06, 05:01 PM	#2
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Lower the wave factor, or attunement, i forget which. See thread in mod forum on, "getting rid of pinpoint drops". (edit: AH HAH, found it! I did alot of testing on AI passive and posted my results in it) http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=45370 AI doesnt normally start active sonar unless they had a passive contact first. The AI's Passive contact is like....... by default.. nearly deaf. . How large the waves are plays a BIG factor in their detection.

05-04-06, 08:32 PM	#9
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Hey Ducimus, I tried to edit the SIM. CFG file, it won't let me.... Keeps changing back to original values. I am using notepad.....

05-04-06, 08:54 PM	#12
mike_espo Sonar Guy Join Date: May 2005 Location: Chicago, USA Posts: 396 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Thanks! That is why.... Regarding the "lose time" setting in the sim .cfg....the value is 30sec... is yours at 15min?

05-04-06, 09:01 PM	#13
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I could be mistaken but i think the Lostcontact time is in minutes not seconds. Whats the default, like 10 or 15? (assuming the sim.cfg is vanilla and unmodded) If so, just put in a 45. If not, just assume im full of crap and put in something else :P But im pretty sure its in minutes, ive used a lostcontact time of 5 for testing purposes in the u505 mission and it seemed to be about 5 mins before the AI gave up after it lost contact with me.