Depth charge's maximum depth.

[Ducimus]

I was just looking into this and according to this site:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMUS_ASW.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_ASW.htm

It would seem the most commonly used depth charges were the US's Mark 6/7 and GB Mark 7 depth charges? That is, if im reading their usage/production notes correctly.

If thats the case, then the maximum depth on these cans was about 183 meters if this is a credible source.

So if this is the realistic maximum depth, shouldn't that be what their maximum depth is? If so, the next question taht jumps into my mind, is explosion radius? what would be realistic? in SH3 terms, ive heard around 12-15 meters. (default is 40)


After those two question, the next one, really jumps into my mind, Is it fun? I mean, seriously, if an VII boat can crawl down to around 230 meters or more, wouldnt that make the depth charge, in SH3 terms, a moot point? Go to just above crush depth, and creep away with impunity (err that is, until Hedge hogs arrive on the scene. )

The only way i can think to put the bite back into the DC bark would be to increase their sink rate and have their explosion radius a bit more?

Thoughts?

[HEMISENT]

Ducimus
I've read in a number of books how the allied early war DC's were set to explode at a certain depth which was much shallower than U boats were capable of diving to. I think if memory serves correct this was during the winter 40/41.
The Brits simply did not believe that the boats were able to evade safely by going deeper. After the capture and interrogation of a U boat crew this information came out and the DC's were set to compensate for the newly discovered depth capabilities.

Would this be immersive gameplay to just dive down and evade-no
Would this be historically accurate-yes

How about something in the middle? We find those statistics, plug them into SH3 Commander Randomized Events and set a 50/50 mix of historically accurate vs default settings-that way the player has no clue what he will run up against.
Just a thought.

Cheers!

[mike_espo]

I am reading a book: U-Boat Killer by Captain Donald Macintyre RN
British intellegence estimated the max diving depth of U-boats to be about 350 ft, or 105m.

He states that by the fall of 1941, most front line escort commanders suspected that U-boats could dive much deeper, and that DCs of the light variety that could explode at around 500ft or 150m were woefully inadequate for the task. But Navies being the Bureaucratic entities they are, did not believe the information and not until actual U-boats were captured in 1942 and later did Heavies become the norm in British escorts. These could be set to 800ft or 250m depth.

He also stated that British escorts carried two types of DC: Light and heavy: in fact, he states that he had to have one of his Corvettes which was part of his escort group to prosecute the U-boat for he did not have any heavy DCs left.

As to the SH3 issue: I raised it a month or so ago. Nobody really had a solution to the problem. I agree that early war, it really is boring that if you have more than 200m of depth, you are virtually safe from damage.

It would be awesome to have a random chance of depth for DCs...would solve the problem of lack of certainty of survival early war.

[Ducimus]

Random thoughts:

- As stated, i agree that accurate historical modding in this regard would result in boring gameplay. I have always been of the realism mixed with gameplay philosphy.

- One key problem is that theres only ONE type of DC in the game. One universal ashcan. Can't differentiate between early and late war.

- Has anyone found where DC depth can be modded?
You can use some of TT's tools (tweaker i beleive) and modify the detionation depth and depth accuracy. On Hedge hogs for example by modding thse you can set them to detionate at 200 meters, or by increasing the depth accuracy to say 25 you can have them detionate randomly between 175 meters and 225 meters.

However, the same variables, do not seem to behave the same way with depth charges. I suspect its related to the same reason why depth charges magially disappear when they hit 300 meters. As an experiment, you can mod a boat to crush at 350 meters, cruise at 325, and watch the DC's just "POOF" without explosion at 300 meters.

[gouldjg]

So there must be a number showing the 300 mtr limit somewhere within either the zon or sim files or somewhere hidden (I will do a search in the files to see if anything can be tweaked to give slighly better results). It is like you say, if we go to the realism extreme it will make the game predictable & boring so a bit of variation will be the best way.

If this can be found, great as it can be set to be year specific with commander but still cause damage if above the 150 mtrs.

[irish1958]

Vary the crush depths of the subs more via SH3 CMDR. That way you won't be able to sneak away at large depths as it might be fatal, and you will never know how deep you can safely go.
irish1958

[Ducimus]

One thought ive had throughout all this, is the combination of

- 18o-190 ish maximum depth setting on DC.s (debatble, out of hat numbers)

- Randomize the accuracy so they can randomly reach down to say 225 meters ( just an out of the hat example)

- Experiment with explosion radius so that....

- Subs with tweaked max depth can get under the DC's, but not out of their shockwaves. So theyl get rattled by them something good. Ideally id love to see alot of damage machinery, and flooding.. such that...

- it makes maximum depth a razors edge tighrope walk safe from hull rupture, but not safe from crushing. DC's shockwaves should encourage the boat to be crushed if hammered enough by explosion radius.


My "big picture" perspective so to speak. This is what i would like to achieve.

edit:
one side effect i think however would be that it would encourage max depth divinig. With the increased explosion radius, being DC'ed any other depth could be a real killer. Dunno, needs testing :hmm:

edit:
on the other hand you could always make the escorts less accurate with the pin point drops. So that an "in the vacinity" is enough to make you crap your pants.

[gouldjg]

Dumicus

I am at this moment testing the subs at very low hp levels with all shells bombs etc made to compensate (collisions will soon mess you up pretty bad and so will DD hits) As far as battle ships are concerned, I would not dare pop my head up.

In fact, though it may take a week or so, I am trying to rebuild the whole damage system and have it editable with one text file that overwrites any other system apart from the NYGM as it has re edited zones.

The DC will be worked on to grind you down but not be too extensive, the hedgehogs will have a probability of being somewhat close to being unrecoverable from as set by probability request.

Your crush speeds will vary so you may try and pop under you max depth but you just will not know how fast your boat will pop lol.

This will try and be achieved without the instant death screen but in some cases i.e. a ramming, you have to expect to be dead.

What are your thoughts,

stick to a slightly unrealistic model but have the gamey dealing with floods etc.

Go close to real and make ramming a death sentance as well a duelling DDs.

[Ducimus]

What are your thoughts,

stick to a slightly unrealistic model but have the gamey dealing with floods etc.

Go close to real and make ramming a death sentance as well a duelling DDs.

One thing ive always tried to achieve with my own game, is what id call a "das boot experience". I want stuff breaking, i want to have to prioritize repairs, to have to make decisions, the wrong one meaning an out of contol or ruptred boat, So from that perspective, i like to have a gamey feeling dealing with flooding etc.

I think dueling DD's should be a death sentence, but Ramming, i think should utterly trash the boat, but not outright kill it. A ramming i think should smash equipment and drop the H.I to like 20% or something. Surviable, but unable to dive. However that point is probably moot since the DD would then just blow you out of the water with its guns.

U-333 was rammed and survived. Rare occurance, but it happened.

http://uboat.net/boats/u333.htm
http://www.submariners.co.uk/Dits/Articles/U333.htm

[gouldjg]

I would not mind some info on just how long a sub can be expected to survive under DD fire.

In some cases I recall people saying one or two shots did the job and others saying subs were quite resilient IRL.

My vote goes for 4 shots and your dead meat down to 10% hp and proably flloding to your crush depth.

[Ducimus]

THe realistic answer is

Was the pressure hull or the main induction ripped open?

Ive read accounts where a shell smashed the superstructure, but owing to the angle, deflected off the pressurehull. Once you got a hole in the pressurehull your done.

Another intresting example is U505. It was acutally bombed, and survived, but the superstructure absorbed all the damage. Blew the 3.7 mm platform clean off. Ive acutally had this happen to me in game. IE deck gun or AA guns absorbe what otherwise would have been a fatal hit.





In regards to shells, im of the opinion, 1 or 2 hits from a DD or DE should make you unable to dive. Which means an H.I of aobut 10-20% or so. The lower the H.I the less your crush depth. at 20% you cant go much deeper then like 40 meters or so if i remember correctly. That would need testing.

[mike_espo]

I wrote a thread stating that in my type IXB career, was rammed by a C3 and no H.I. damage. Took all of 10 seconds to repair....

Did a test with a IX and a C3, let him ram me at right angles....some damage, flooding, but NO H.I. damage....this at 12 knots....

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by mike_espo

rammed by a C3 and no H.I. damage. Took all of 10 seconds to repair....

Hollywood damage mod installed or no?

Originally Posted by mike_espo

Did a test with a IX and a C3, let him ram me at right angles....some damage, flooding, but NO H.I. damage....this at 12 knots....

Odd. Again, it comes down to what mods your running. Vanilla game i can see this happening. I havent been rammed enough in normal play to know any difference honestly. I have been rammed ONCE.

Ironically, it was my U-333 career. If you read the account on that boat, i amazingly had a similar experience. Came out of the mist, from behind me, i tried to crash dive, his ramming me acutally got me under faster. The problem herein is i dont remember if i took H.I loss on that ramming or not. Because right after he rammed me and pushed me under he depth charged me and blew his own ass off.

My boat was trashed at 30% H.I. after this incident. I dont know if it was the DC or the ramming that did it. It all happened so fast. (and no, this wasnt how i lost that career, i acutally made it back to port but was unable to dive past 40 meters without being crushed. If the DD hadnt blown his own ass off, i dont think i would have survied any more depth charging, no depth abilty left to avoid it. )

[Salvadoreno]

OooO two direct hits from a DD knowing that my hull integrity would prevent me from diving would definately keep me very careful when surface attacking. I would definately love that realism factor!

[mike_espo]

[quote="Ducimus"]

Originally Posted by mike_espo

rammed by a C3 and no H.I. damage. Took all of 10 seconds to repair....

Hollywood damage mod installed or no?

Originally Posted by mike_espo

Did a test with a IX and a C3, let him ram me at right angles....some damage, flooding, but NO H.I. damage....this at 12 knots....

No. I have Hollywood Damage mod made for RuB, IuB. I do have it in JSGME, activated it, tested the ramming effects: found that No damage of any kind is inflicted :hmm:

I have RuB 1.45, NYGM crew management, a few sound mods, sky, Btty fix.

Don't know....