A Question for everyone

STEED · 04-04-06, 04:46 AM

In WW2 could a U-Boat sink a Passenger Liner in 1939.

You have 24 hours, true or false. Answer tomorrow.

Kapitan · 04-04-06, 04:57 AM

NO not according to the "cruiser rules" which went out the window anyway.

kiwi_2005 · 04-04-06, 06:24 AM

A uboat did sink a passenger liner, The Luisitania, but i think it was after 1939. :hmm:

Heres a good read of Uboat Captains talking about how easy it was hunting in american waters during Operation "Paukenschlag," or "Drumbeat." As one captain put it, ERICH TOPP (Commander, U-552): Compared with the difficulties in the Atlantic war, it was a shooting of hares.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcr...12lostsub.html

The Avon Lady · 04-04-06, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

A uboat did sink a passenger liner, The Luisitania, but i think it was after 1939. :hmm:

Google before you post.

kiwi_2005 · 04-04-06, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Google before you post

I did

But i found this instead
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcr...12lostsub.html

nothing to do with liners though, still a good read. :|\

Khayman · 04-04-06, 06:33 AM

They could sink whatever ship they wanted. As to whether they were allowed to sink Passenger Liners in 1939 (and if it's not a trick question) then no.

Fritz Julius Lemp in U-30 sank the SS Athenia on September 3rd 1939 and got a rocket up his bum from a furious Hitler.

Torplexed · 04-04-06, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khayman

Fritz Julius Lemp in U-30 sank the SS Athenia on September 3rd 1939 and got a rocket up his bum from a furious Hitler.

Was that a V-1 or a V-2?

Khayman · 04-04-06, 07:55 AM

Good question

Neither I suppose, since he didn't buzz or go supersonic. Or if he did then history did not record the incident.

StdDev · 04-04-06, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khayman

They could sink whatever ship they wanted. As to whether they were allowed to sink Passenger Liners in 1939 (and if it's not a trick question) then no.

Fritz Julius Lemp in U-30 sank the SS Athenia on September 3rd 1939 and got a rocket up his bum from a furious Hitler.

Didnt hear about the rectal rocket.. I did hear that the nazis changed Lemps ship logs and then claimed that the Athenia was "probably" sunk by the British themselves in an effort to "frame" the Germans and help bring the United States into the war.. I think there were 12 US citizens on the Athenia when it was sunk.

Anywayz... obviously a U-boat was physically able to sink a passenger ship in 1939.
However it was a violation of the Rules of Prize Warfare, which define a set of rules for taking vessels during war. Some of the rules state that: passenger ships may not be sunk; crews of merchant ships must be placed in safety before their ships may be sunk (life boats are not considered a place of safety unless close to land); only warships may be sunk without warning.

All sides signed treaties subscribing to Rules of Prize Warfare before World War I and they were in effect during World War II but all sides ignored them in both wars.

The treaties are still in effect today.

Kapitan · 04-04-06, 08:20 AM

Kiwi lusitania was sunk in 1915 or the irish coast. near the ol head of kinsail.

Konovalov · 04-04-06, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Kiwi lusitania was sunk in 1915 or the irish coast. near the ol head of kinsail.

Kapitan,

True, but Avon Lady has pointed this out already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

A uboat did sink a passenger liner, The Luisitania, but i think it was after 1939. :hmm:

Google before you post.

Kapitan · 04-04-06, 08:39 AM

Oh didnt see avons post, must be one of them selective seeing things.

Khayman · 04-04-06, 08:45 AM

I like the letter the retired Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher wrote to Churchill who was First Lord of the Admiralty at the time in June 1913;

"[the submarine] cannot capture the merchant ship; she has no spare hands to put a prize crew on board.....she cannot convoy her into harbour.....There is nothing else the submarine can do except sink her capture.....(this) is freely acknowledged to be an altogether barbarous method of warfare....(but) the essence of war is violence, and moderation in war is imbecility"

I quote the last line quite a bit, as i love it.

Perhaps in danger of drifting OT, but what Fisher says seems to suggest that Hitler was wrong to try to limit U-Boat targets. So maybe not that OT.

STEED · 04-04-06, 11:38 AM

Just popped in to see the voting looks close, I shall give the answer tomorrow morning. Keep voting everyone.

04-04-06, 01:10 PM

I voted with Khayman: whatever the rules were at the time, a U-boat could sink a passengerliner as long as they had sufficient torpedoes or deck-gun ammo.

View Poll Results: A Passenger Liner in 1939 could be sunk?
True	10	66.67%
False	5	33.33%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

04-04-06, 04:46 AM	#1
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	A Question for everyone In WW2 could a U-Boat sink a Passenger Liner in 1939. You have 24 hours, true or false. Answer tomorrow. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

04-04-06, 04:57 AM	#2
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,131 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	NO not according to the "cruiser rules" which went out the window anyway. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

04-04-06, 06:24 AM	#3
kiwi_2005 Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2004 Location: Aeoteroa Posts: 7,382 Downloads: 223 Uploads: 1	A uboat did sink a passenger liner, The Luisitania, but i think it was after 1939. :hmm: Heres a good read of Uboat Captains talking about how easy it was hunting in american waters during Operation "Paukenschlag," or "Drumbeat." As one captain put it, ERICH TOPP (Commander, U-552): Compared with the difficulties in the Atlantic war, it was a shooting of hares. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcr...12lostsub.html __________________ RIP kiwi_2005 Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others.

04-04-06, 08:20 AM	#10
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,131 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	Kiwi lusitania was sunk in 1915 or the irish coast. near the ol head of kinsail. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

04-04-06, 06:33 AM	#6
Khayman Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 258 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	They could sink whatever ship they wanted. As to whether they were allowed to sink Passenger Liners in 1939 (and if it's not a trick question) then no. Fritz Julius Lemp in U-30 sank the SS Athenia on September 3rd 1939 and got a rocket up his bum from a furious Hitler.

04-04-06, 07:55 AM	#8
Khayman Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 258 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Good question Neither I suppose, since he didn't buzz or go supersonic. Or if he did then history did not record the incident.

04-04-06, 08:39 AM	#12
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,131 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 7	Oh didnt see avons post, must be one of them selective seeing things. __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

04-04-06, 08:45 AM	#13
Khayman Lieutenant Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 258 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	I like the letter the retired Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher wrote to Churchill who was First Lord of the Admiralty at the time in June 1913; "[the submarine] cannot capture the merchant ship; she has no spare hands to put a prize crew on board.....she cannot convoy her into harbour.....There is nothing else the submarine can do except sink her capture.....(this) is freely acknowledged to be an altogether barbarous method of warfare....(but) the essence of war is violence, and moderation in war is imbecility" I quote the last line quite a bit, as i love it. Perhaps in danger of drifting OT, but what Fisher says seems to suggest that Hitler was wrong to try to limit U-Boat targets. So maybe not that OT.

04-04-06, 11:38 AM	#14
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	Just popped in to see the voting looks close, I shall give the answer tomorrow morning. Keep voting everyone. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

04-04-06, 01:10 PM	#15
Sailor Steve Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I voted with Khayman: whatever the rules were at the time, a U-boat could sink a passengerliner as long as they had sufficient torpedoes or deck-gun ammo.