NYGM aircraft damage -- big improvement

[Brentano]

My first career with the full NYGM Tonnage War mod has been very fun. I started mid-year 1943, Lorient, with a Type IXC. On my first patrol I recieved a message from Donitz ordering all U-Boats to stay surfaced and counter-attack enemy aircraft within the Bay of Biscay.

What a great improvement. My hats off to all NYGM contributors. On that first patrol I lost 4 four sailors using the flak guns. On the second patrol I took a ton of damage and had to return to base after 48 hours on patrol. On the third patrol I made a heroic effort and lost 6 sailors, a warrant officer, and my main watch officer trying to fend off the Biscay Air Patrol. ... again I had to return to base. All of this without shooting down a single plane.

This is a vast improvement. I remember in the vanilla game I shot down 19 aircraft on a single mission in the Med! This is so much more realistic. Again, Thanks a bunch. And congrats on a successful release.

~ Brentano

[Perilscope]

Originally Posted by Brentano

All of this without shooting down a single plane.

All those efforts and nothing down, that is bad for the moral.
Do you use the guns yourself or you let the AI shoot???

[Brentano]

Yep ... my crew moral went way down ... as expected. I let the crew shoot. Hell, I'm commander, not a flak gunner!

[Der Teddy Bar]

Brentano,
Thanks for the great feedback. It is always nice to know how the players are experiencing 'it'.

Just in case some are not aware, in the 3rd instance you could still continure on though it would be very hard because the Morale loss means the men do not function for as long, i.e. full Morale & rested is normally 18 hrs and Min Morale & full rested is 12 hrs. Then of course, you are down 8 men, very hard.

You would have to sink about 3 ships to get the Morale back to maximum.

So if you were to "loose 6 sailors, a warrant officer, and my main watch officer" you can still make it back to base.

[Perilscope]

Originally Posted by Brentano

...as expected. I let the crew shoot. Hell, I'm commander, not a flak gunner!

You sure like it real…

50% of the time, I take command of the shooting, or when in real trouble…
However, since I have read your post I feel like trying the NYGM, I did not know that it would improve by so much the aircraft actions. :hmm:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Perilscope

You sure like it real…

50% of the time, I take command of the shooting, or when in real trouble…
However, since I have read your post I feel like trying the NYGM, I did not know that it would improve by so much the aircraft actions. :hmm:

From the original thread of the NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod - http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=48705

I cannot stress enough, that your AI AA crew are not useless, but, they no longer have a Laser Guided Aiming System.

The AA gun no longer has a Laser Guided Aiming System. You AI AA gunners are now not going to be able to ‘nail an aircraft to the wall’ from over 2000 metres.




Aircraft will now be something to be feared and respected. They are not impossible, and most planes can be brought down with 1 and 2 bullets for the bombers. However, 95% of time this will not happen. The planes are not impossible. They are now both harder too hit as well as armoured.

The ability for a bullet to pierce the armour is determined by the bullet’s HP or if the bullet’s HP value alone is not enough it still may still get through when the bullet’s HP in conjunction with random Armour Piercing modifier give it enough HP’s. However, the Min/Max HP range for the bullet is large which will result in some bullets never getting through even with the modifiers.

The ability for a bullet to cause damage is Random.

In light of the AI’s ability to drop bombs very accurately I have reduced the bomb’s maximum blast area, while at the same time increasing the minimum range. That is, where as a 100kg bomb had a HP of 40 Min & 100 Max, it is now 100 for both Min & Max and where the range was 1 metre Min & 20 Metres Max it is now 5 metres Min & 10 metres Max.

It is I feel, and I hope that after playing, that you will agree, a good compromise when considering the many aspects of game play, including that of how the AI works. I will ask before dishing the bomb changes to give it a fair chance, then feel free to have your say.

Originally Posted by Berry

Here's the problem: the AI can literally hit a gnat's whisker at a range of 2 miles. That means that (except for the first couple of rounds) every bullet fired from the time the AI open up until they stop (i.e. while the aircraft is in range) will hit the aircraft. It is impossible (as far as we know) to make the AI less accurate.

In RUb we tried making the aircraft armour plated to the maximum to offset this (this was the first thing we tried), but adding armour only goes so far, and after a while it starts to look ridiculous when you have aircraft taking thousands of FlAK hits without effect.

We also decreased the effectiveness of FlAK shells (this was the second thing we tried), but FlAK shells can only be made a little bit less effective otherwise players will have problems when using FlAK guns against other targets - PT boats etc.

The nerfs that we used up to this point began to affect the way the game looked because what was needed was a HUGE reduction in firepower to offset the AI's superhuman accuracy. The only alternative left to us was to reduce the range at which AI FlAK guns can fire. Even after doing all this, the FlAK guns are still uber.

It is still very possible to shoot down many more planes than was historically possible.

In WWII only 120 aircraft were shot down for the entire war and most of those were from 1942 onwards.

Between 1939 & 1943 only 10 aircraft were shot down...
1939 - 2 - U-30 2x Blackburn Skua NOTE: one was 'shot' down by it's own bomb bouncing off the water and exploding in the air.
1940 - 0
1941 - 1 - U-131 1 x Martlet
1942 - 7 - U-73 1 x Hudson, U-256 1 x Whitley, U-259 1 x Hudson, U-505 1 x Hudson, U-561 1 x Liberator, U-565 1 x Hudson, U-606 Catalina,

Please check out the u-boat.net's page on aircraft shot down http://uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm.


As far as I can tell, the most aircraft shot down by one u-boat is an astounding number of 4!

2 Sep, 1942
(British Whitley aircraft, Squadron 77/H)

11 Mar, 1944
(Canadian Wellington aircraft, Squadron 407/H)
The aircraft seems to have crashed on its own during preparations for the attack run.

19 Mar, 1944
(British Liberator aircraft, Squadron 224/F)
The aircraft smashed into the sea 500m away from the boat and exploded.

7 Jun, 1944
(British Liberator aircraft, Squadron 224/M)


Please note that the AI AA ranges have been changed to...
Close 1000
Medium 2000
Long 3000

I would recomend at the start of a patrol you you immendiatly set the AA to Fire at will, set the range to medium & fire at incomming aircraft only.

Ammunition could now be a possible issue.

Even though you are very unlikely to attain many hits I have set the maximum range at 3000 metres. This is for the times that you are desperate to keep the plane away from you.

I would, as mentioned above, recomend using the medium setting of 2000 metres.

And pray tell ! Who Solved the issue of the laser guided AA Hmmm?

Who worked out the Auto Gyro staberlizer settings ?


I did.


All the HP an armour values an the random factors an all that, is all NYGM and Teds work, full credit to them for a monumental effort. Truly a work of art. I did say that combining both would be bloody awsome now didnt I

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Cdre Gibs

And pray tell ! Who Solved the issue of the laser guided AA Hmmm?

Who worked out the Auto Gyro staberlizer settings ?


I did.


All the HP an armour values an the random factors an all that, is all NYGM and Teds work, full credit to them for a monumental effort. Truly a work of art. I did say that combining both would be bloody awsome now didnt I

Cdre Gibs,
Now now, time to say sorry...

Why? Because your "Auto Gyro staberlizer settings" were NOT the solution. That is, I, NYGM, did not use the values trav_tolerance & elev_tolerance for the NYGM solution.

So.... I am waiting :hmm:

So pray tell, Who Solved the issue of the laser guided AA Hmmm?

It WAS Teddy Bär, what a aguy, what a legend, what a smartass... :rotfl:

Well there ya go then, I as you know dont use the NYGMod, but after that thread where we bashed out the AA issue, I was under the impression that you had included the fix. But since you didnt I can only imagen how much better that AA would be if you had.

And I'm still correct, I solved the Laser Guided AA. This however is NOT what you have done, your method is from the other end of the stick. And full marks for the end result.

Your AA is still accurate, its just not the same stock damage values an what not, more random on what/if/when it does damage. Your approuch if I understand it correctly is more to do with the AC, the shells and how they intereact with 1 another. Dont get me wrong, I think its great what you guys came up with. But at the end of the day, the only NON accurate AA and DG fix was mine, as in it was the AA and DG that were address directly for accuracy, rather than effect of the rounds v's target. But the end result is damn near the same. (either that or I have inturpreted the whole shebang arse about face )

The big difference is my lot cant hit the side of a barn at time's, but when they do, its raining RAF

So I say again, I can only imagen the difference if both had been combined !

[Der Teddy Bar]

Cdre Gibs,
You can have credit for solving the laser AA

NYGM reduced the accuracy of the AA and did so by not using your 'findings'. I tested your changes before I addressed the Laser Guided Aiming System my own way and I am yet to be convinced that your changes achieved anything. Now that you have suggested it, I presume that your changes would amplify the NYGM changes and possible make for a better AA.

NYGM claim "The AA gun no longer has a Laser Guided Aiming System". I am claiming that the NYGM AA has been modified to reduce the accuracy. I stand by that claim.

The NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod has several aspects to it.
1. AA accuracy has been decreased
2. Armour/Bullet aligned to AP formula

So, the NYGM AA is not laser accurate, but it can hit the side of a barn. It can and does miss. I feel that the accuracy is fairly accurate, as the issue for the U-boats was that the planes were armoured.

Could the accuracy be less, possibly, can I do so without using your suggested changes, yes. We need more end user feedback.

Let me say it one more time, NYGM reduced the accuracy of the AA and did so by not using your 'findings.

So in addition to changing the values of the armour and bullets in line with the AP (Armour Piercing) formular and nulling faulty damage zones the NYGM reduced the accuracy of the AA.

I will aslo say, the same value changed for the NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod was changed for the Deck Gun.

Forgoing all the rest (not that its trivial, it aint) I'm just curious as to what part you changed when you stated this :

Originally Posted by Der Teddy Bar

The NYGM Aircraft Damage Mod has several aspects to it.
1. AA accuracy has been decreased

The reason I asked it that I had a bloody long hard look at the Guns_Sub files way back when the whole issue about DG accuracy came up and the only thing I could find to "Fix" the DG and the AA was what I did. So I'm interested to see if I missed a bit that may make what I'm after even more doable. I'm talking about the actual Guns them selves here btw, nothing more. So if its a bit I missed I'd be damn apprecitive.

I just D/L the original NYGM AA bit, I cant see 1 thing different between that and the stock Guns. Now I'm really curious, WTH did you change ??

Thx.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Cdre Gibs,
I changed the ‘speedElevation’

For the AA 90 to 25
For the deck gun 10 to 1.25

When I looked at the issue of the Laser Guided Aiming System what caught my eye was when the AA nailed it and when the AA did not.

What I noticed was that the AA from left to right and right to left, would often trail the plane. But when ever the plane was coming head on, I am not talking about in simple level flight, but when the plane was diving from and/or climbing to a great height at speed and angle, speeding over head and other various situations where you would not expect a gunner to be able to maintain a bead on the aircraft even without being on a rocking and rolling u-boat in 10 knot winds.

So with this in mind, I deduced that the ‘speedElevation’ needed to be slowed down so that the AA could not adjusting the aim up and down with a superman ability.

And it works a treat. The AA can still hit the aircraft, as they should be able to, but when a plane changes height quickly the AA cannot instantly adjust. Nor can they instantly adjust the aim when the weather gets worse. So as the weather gets worse, so does the ability of the AA.

The same principle works for the deck gun. The deck gun should be able to gently adjust the aim in relation to the rocking of the boat, but only to a small degree. And that is what we have with the deck gun. When you look at it you will notice that there are a lot of instances where it is not maintaining a precise level and that the gun is rocking with the boat.

Ahhh, interesting. You made a very valid point. I must admit I'm as blind as a bat, I didnt see that difference!

I'm now wondering what the combined effect would be with your lil tweak an mine! :hmm:

To sum it up, the AA/DG would now take longer to adjust and also not be able to stay adjusted correctly as easily. Damn I'd be surprised if you could hit anything after that

Thx Ted.

[Brentano]

*cough*

Teddy Bar --- Just so you know I set the range to medium & fire at incomming aircraft only on those 3 patrols.

Ammunition was a problem. On the last patrol I was out of light flak and nearly out of heavy flak when I decided my boat couldn't take anymore damage (and my crew was threatening mutiny ).

I'm actually wondering if it is now TOO DIFFICULT to shoot down aircraft? Perhaps the current set-up needs some tweeking? I'll play around some more and let you know what I think. I know you mention the figure of 95%--is that a number you came up with from testing or is that a rough estimate/guess?

[mapuc]

Where can I find this mod?

Have been looking here

http://server3.realsimulation.com/u-boot/SH3Mods/

Markus