Sub upgrades: VIIB to VIIc vs VIIb to IX?

[scandium]

New to posting here, though I've been lurking for a couple months and playing SH for a little longer, and anyway I thought I'd try and get some opinions on the merits of the different subs that become available after aquiring a VIIb. Specifically: do you upgrade from a VIIb to a VIIc or to a type IX and why?

My observations so far: the VIIc appears identical to the VIIb, but for the quicker drive time, and looks like it may allow certain upgrades either sooner than available on the VIIb or that may not be available for the VIIb at all (thinking specifically of MAN diesals here, though I could be wrong and there may be others).

On the IX: like the increased firepower, range, and crew compliment but it handles like a beached whale. In the early war I usually crash dive on aircraft sightings and engage with guns (if conditions are favourable) DDs but do the reverse in the IX (never engage DDs but usually engage aircraft, at least on their initial pass). The more significant drawback, in the only campaign I'd tried IXs in (so please let me know if this is the norm or not in your experience), was that I went from fighting convoy battles in the North Atlantic (with the 7th flotilla) and hair raising patrols into the North Sea and Scapa flow to, exclusively, longe range patrols between Gibraltor and Freetown (for 7 consecutive patrols, between Dec '40 - Nov '41 before retiring and beginning a new career to learn manual targetting and install SH3 Commander and IUB for more spice). Anyway, during those 11 months in the IX I encountered no convoys and only 1 warship (a flower corvette) - is this typical of others experience in the IX as well?

Anyway, apologize if this has (undoubtedly) been touched on in other threads but hoping to gain others perspective on the VIIc vs IX upgrade path and why they choose whichever they go with.

I don't really make a distinction. I have a career going with each flotilla, and I take the boat that's offered to me. I'm currently in early 1940, and if I lose my 7th Flotilla commander there's a Type IX awaiting his replacement.

[scandium]

Okay I also take whatever boat I'm offered, depending on flotilla choice (IIA exclusively except for my one startup in the 7th, instead of the 1st flotilla which I'd always gone previously and where I got the IIVb form the get-go) but eventually, after starting in 09/39, other boats become available no matter which flotilla you start with: if in the first flotilla, even if you never transfer (as I had, to the 2nd Flotilla in my IX game) you will still have the upgrade choices of the IID and shortly thereafter the VIIb and later VIIc. Other flotillas also offer upgrades over time.

So its not really a matter, or exclusively a matter, of what you start with but what you consider viable upgrades and what you prefer to skip. Or are you saying you take whatever boat you're given with no plan to ever upgrade it? If not you're misunderstanding my basic question. For instance, when starting in a IIA I skip the IID in favour of the VIIb that's offered shortly thereafter (in 1st flotilla) but get hung up on where to go from there. I don't have the VIIc experience to know if its worth upgrading to from a VIIb, though it does seem like it might offer some upgrades not available in the IIVb (hoping for confirmation one way or the other) while the IX, based on only one part of a campaign (7 patrols I spent in the b & c) radically changed my theatre of operations and the nature of subsequent "battles" (loosely used because they were mostly one sided affairs against unarmed, or underarmed, and unescorted merchants). Have other IX players experenced this as well?

These are the questions I have as I begin my new campaign (1st flotilla, type IIA - until better boats come along).

No, I haven't upgraded to a new boat yet. We'll see.

Basically I was responding to your post while saying I don't really have any advice to offer in this case.

[U-Dog]

Well once you have SH Commander installed you can choose your own patrol grid.
I just started type ix campaign & am off to the mid-atlantic myself.

[Ducimus]

Well, if your not into Long range patrols, definatly stay out of the 2nd and 10th flotilla's, and IX boats.

Usually when i get impatient, i think, "whats my damn fired hurry to return to port? Im just gonna run right back out here again anyway".


As per convoy's, being in an IX boat has nothing to do with if you engage convoys or not. Your position on the grid does. Generally speaking your not goign to run into convoys south of gibralter, or on the US east coast. You'll usually find them somewhere in the mid atlantic making the crossing between the america's and britian. Or coming out of, or gonig enroute to, Gibralter.


While their submerged turning isnt anything to write home about, IX boats acutally make ideal convoy attackers if your good at plotting your position, and are daring enough to:,
- go to flank speed and turn on your heel to bring your stern to bear after letting your bow tubes loose. Or

- position yourself between two colums of ships to use both bow and stern tubes Or..

- Night surface attack. (not recommended after mid41 ) Early war you can wreek havoc with an IX boat. Ive engaged convoys, 3 times in a single night.

The real drawback to an IX boat, is being depthcharged. Its a bit harder to surivive if you've got 3 or more elite escorts on you. But these situations are extremly rare in campign mode. (ive only been sunk once by DC, and that was because of a mod that introduced an Elite HK group in biscay bay, but the fact is to acutally run into them is not very likely since their not always there) More likely then not, you'll get bombed by an aircraft before you'll be sunk to depth charging.

[Montbrun]

Depending on what MODs you use, I usually save my Renown, and upgrade from a VIIb to a IXc, so I can get all of the nice "goodies" when I do...

[jasondef]

The VIIC mainly has the advantage over the VIIB in that if you stick to the VIIC through later in the war, it becomes alot more upgradable with AA guns, and can be quite formidable in that respect. So if you do stay with a VII, get the VIIC as soon as you can.

If you want to go with the IX, I advise you hold out until the IXC is available (July '41, or Jan '41 w/Commander mod) rather than going with the IXB. This gives you huge range, and the ability to go just about anywhere. While the patrol grid assignments with the stock game won't have much variety, you'll be thankful for the IXC if you choose to customize your patrol grid assignments using SH3 Commander mod, as you will than have much more choices of where to go at your disposal; much more so than either VII or IXB.

[scandium]

Some interesting replies here:


U-Dog said

Well once you have SH Commander installed you can choose your own patrol grid.
I just started type ix campaign & am off to the mid-atlantic myself.

I didn't in that campaign, but have since just started using that and the latest version of IUB. SH3 Commander I installed more to try and "undo" some of the features in IUB that I wasn't interested in, plus I like its bio features. Not sure I want to choose my own grid though, the option's nice but part of what made that last campaign (the first half of it, in the type VIIb) was that for 10 missions straight (all the VIIb ones in 7th flotilla) I was sent on either a "hair raising" mission to places like scapa flow or on routes where I subsequently intercepted convoys.

Ducimus said

Well, if your not into Long range patrols, definatly stay out of the 2nd and 10th flotilla's, and IX boats.

Yeah I think you nailed it. I was having one of my best campaigns ever in the 7th flotilla/VIIb combo until I transferred to the 2nd and upgraded to a IX. It went south from there.

As per convoy's, being in an IX boat has nothing to do with if you engage convoys or not. Your position on the grid does. Generally speaking your not goign to run into convoys south of gibralter, or on the US east coast. You'll usually find them somewhere in the mid atlantic making the crossing between the america's and britian. Or coming out of, or gonig enroute to, Gibralter.

Yeah that confirms my experience and now I know that it wasn't "unique" to that campaign but instead what I can expect in future campaigns as well if I get sent to those locales (didn't know about the US though as I "retired" before they formally entered the war). Given my preference for taking assigned grids, shorter patrols, and operating north of Gibraltor, my best bet then is probably the VIIb/c and sticking to either the 1st or 7th flotilla.

Montbrun said

Depending on what MODs you use, I usually save my Renown, and upgrade from a VIIb to a IXc, so I can get all of the nice "goodies" when I do...

That was more or less the route I went my last campaign, except that I got really lucky in my first few patrols and was able to get a huge enough renown boost to go to a fully modded IXb in Dec '40 then IXc in July '41 (didn'thave quite enough left for everything though).

In my first patrol that game I intercepted a convoy at noon, overcast, light fog, calm sea & lone escort well in front of the convoy (a V&W Destroyer I think). At 10 deg bearing, 5 km range he was nicely outlined while I was certainly invisible to him sitting on the surface so I went ahead slow and engaged him with my deck gun, sinking him with only minor damage before the rest of the convoy came into sight and I then got a nice deck gun/torp spree sinking 70,000 tons of enemy shipping.

My third patrol had an almost identical intercept (same weather, about the same time of day) with what looked like a lone DD out front again, but a little closer to me and to the first line of merchants. Engaged, sunk him (took more hits that time) and almost missed the trailing flower corvette that, before the gun fight was over, had observed it and sped to intercept and ram me broadside. Anyway I torpedoed it @ less than 1000 meters (decided to turn and fight rather than try and dive) but had it been anything other than a slow corvette I would have been toast; as it was I racked up another big gun/torp spree.

After those two encounters and other narrow escapes my IX missions were kinda dull by comparison so now I'm really leaning on just sticking to type VII variants.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by jasondef

The VIIC mainly has the advantage over the VIIB in that if you stick to the VIIC through later in the war, it becomes alot more upgradable with AA guns, and can be quite formidable in that respect. So if you do stay with a VII, get the VIIC as soon as you can.

I think that's the route I'll go: either IIA (1st flotilla) to VIIb when it becomes available to VIIc as soon as its available & I have enough renown, or I might go 7th flotilla again and start with the VIIb.

Right now I'm experimenting with mods (IUB 1.03 mainly) and manual targetting but I think the IX is out as, despite its nice firepower, it doesn't suit my taste for taking assigned grids, shorter patrols, and more action intensive theatres.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by scandium

my IX missions were kinda dull by comparison so now I'm really leaning on just sticking to type VII variants.

It really depends on on the mods installed and WHERE you patrol. (I have a version of improved convoys I tinkered with that spice things up in areas it intentionally and i feel unneccessarily ramped down)

Trust me, ive had some really action packed patrols in an IX.
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46558
(you might enjoy the story, this was on a stock version of improved convoys, no tinkering by me)

The most boring part, is the transatlantic crossing. 20, to 25 days if i remember correctly.

[Quillan]

In my first career, I hung on to my beloved VIIB until late 1941. By that time, the air threat had become so great that I switched to the VIIC to get the better AA firepower. In this one, I'm going to the VIIC as soon as they become available.

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

It really depends on on the mods installed and WHERE you patrol. (I have a version of improved convoys I tinkered with that spice things up in areas it intentionally and i feel unneccessarily ramped down)

Trust me, ive had some really action packed patrols in an IX.
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46558
(you might enjoy the story, this was on a stock version of improved convoys, no tinkering by me)

The most boring part, is the transatlantic crossing. 20, to 25 days if i remember correctly.

In my IX game I was playing vanilla SH3 1.4b but I've since added IUB 1.03 and the latest SH3 Commander (likely all I'll be using as IUB seems to include "everything but the kitchen sink" - although I did see a galley in my IIA for the first time after installing those two, whether from IUB or SH3C I don't know but maybe it includes the kitchen sink after all). I'm not 100% certain but I think improved convoys are included in IUB... I'll have to check out your patrol thread, this month I've been devouring everything U-boat related I can find (patrol logs, nonfiction & fictional u-boat books, online archives, etc).

[scandium]

Originally Posted by Quillan

In my first career, I hung on to my beloved VIIB until late 1941. By that time, the air threat had become so great that I switched to the VIIC to get the better AA firepower. In this one, I'm going to the VIIC as soon as they become available.

Do you recall noticing whether any other upgrades were available for the VIIc besides the improved flak? Just wondering because I had my VIIb until Dec '40 and only the first engine upgrade was available; but when I upgraded to the IXb I could upgrade to the MAN diesels as well which left me wondering whether the VIIb wasn't upgradable to them or if the tech simply hadn't been developed until the month or so my new IX was being commissioned. I'm assuming in either case that the VIIc will allow things like the MAN diesels, radar, schnorkel, and anti-sonar coatings etc as they're developed.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by scandium

[. I'll have to check out your patrol thread,.

If you do that, read this one, it will give you a much better perspective on what its like in an IX boat in this game.

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=47668

I havent updated it in quite awhile.