Long post about dealing with long patrols

MarkQuinn · 03-06-06, 08:36 PM

I've been going through a Silent Hunter III crisis lately.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. I've been waiting for a game like this --- a nuatical semi-simulation with a dynamic, evolving campaign and immersive graphics and sounds --- for a long time. When I first got it, I completely redesigned my computer desk so that everywhere you looked there was something that had to do with submarines or the sea. I also kept my notebook, a pencil, reference material and such within arms reach. I took all my other games (some 40 of them) away from their tray beneath my desk and stashed them away in a distant cabinet. Silent Hunter III would be the only game I would ever need to play (aside from The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, an RPG which may not appeal to most of the naval buffs on this forum, coming out in two weeks).

My goal was to do all my patrols in real time. A daunting task, to be sure. But I wouldn't be actively PLAYING during that time. I would be reading and studying. It would be more than a game: it would be an interactive classroom where I would learn about the war while occasionally testing my virtual mettle against allied destroyers and aircraft.

How many folks here have actually played one or more patrols in real time, without using the time compression even once? To me, it's much harder than I thought.

Here's the problem. I start my campaigns in 1939. I like the Type VII so of course I start with the 7th Flotilla. That means if I wanted to play in real time I would have 3-4 days heading north and then west around the peninsula (not sure of its name) with absolutely no chance of attacking or being attacked, safe in German waters.

Yes, I could start at a later date and sail from France, cutting down on the sailing time before I get into the action. And mind you, it's not ACTION that I crave per se, but the hunt. This is important: sailing through waters in real time where at any moment you may stumble upon prey is far more exciting than sailing through safe waters where you'll find nothing --- even if, in both conditions, you sail for hours without so much as a ship siting.

Bottom line, I've learned to start using that time compression button, and usually keep it at 1024.

So what! you say. We all use it!

Well, if you use it and have no qualms about it, then you can stop reading here and you have my apologies for taking you this far. If, however, you are like me and want to extract the whole experience --- or as much as possible given the medium on which we play --- INCLUDING the boredom, perhaps you can pass along some tips, methods, hints, systems or mindsets you use to have your cake and eat it too.

The problem with time compression, at least for me, is that once you use it in a campaign, you have the tendency to become overzealous with it. Here's what I mean. You've sailed from Kiel, around the peninsula then west north west toward the British Isles and Scapa Flow. You've done it all in 1024 compression (or whatever you use), slowing down only when forced to do so by a radio message or a friendly contact. Now you're somewhere off the coast of Scotland and you finally have an enemy merchant contact. Problem is, he's 40 km away and yes, it's gonna take you a while to reach him. So what do you do? Well, you've gone this far in time compression, so why not go the rest of the way? You speed up the game and slow down to do a hydropone check only if you pass the estimated contact area without spotting him. the game slows down for a while and now, for the first time, you only BEGIN to enjoy some of the tension, some of the HUNT of a real U-Boot commander and crew as you listen silently under the waves. When your sonar man calls out the contact, and especially if he's headed away from you, of course you surface for more speed and hit that time compression button a couple times, hoping your watch crew will see him. Only when he is in sight do you prepare for your first extended period in real time as you plot your attack run. It all seems so artifical to me, like a throw away campaign. After all, you haven't invested days or weeks in this campaign, so if you miss, or if the RAF should catch you, so what? You just start again.

Last night I did an entire patrol in 45 minutes. It wasn't fun. It was "going through the motions".

Now don't get me wrong. As far as problems in games go, THIS is by far not the worst problem you can have. Afterall, how can you complain that the world is TOO big or that sailing times are TOO close to reality? Like I said, I've been wanting something like that for a long time. But now that I have it, I'm not sure exactly what to do with it.

I work 40+ hours a week, which just leaves a couple hours a day for me to play SH3 (of course I have a life outside of this also which needs tending to). I refuse to let Sh3 run for a long time when I am not there or sleeping. Not because I'm afraid I'll be sunk (I would, afterall, do it in friendly waters only), but because I can't justify leaving my PC and all it's intricate parts powered up and heating up for hours upon hours all day --- especially (and this is the irony) when time compression will get me there just the same, but in a fraction of the time.

So, to those who think the way I do, but who have had SH3 much longer than I have (I've had it for about a month), how --- if at all --- have you overcome this dilemma? Perhaps you have set rules for yourself and with great discipline told yourself you would sail up to a certain point, a certain danger zone, THEN sail in real time no matter how long you go without a contact, etc. Or perhaps you've said you would sail with time compression up until your first enemy contact, THEN gone in to real time and stayed there until the end of your 24 patrol of the designated zone. Or perhaps you've grinned, beared it, played the whole damn thing in real time and can attest that once you really get it going (and find a nice pasttime for yourself), it's really not so agonizngly bad.

I know boredom was a problem on long patrols. But on long patrols, men had jobs to do to pass the time. They also had friendships and camaraderie and systems that needed attended to. All we have are a few two dimensional screens and the repetition of our officer's animations. It's a different kind of boredom, suited perhaps for a five hour gaming session, but certainly NOT suited for a 10 day patrol.

Any thoughts?

MQ

DMarkwick · 03-06-06, 09:15 PM

Try a half-way house, on the bridge you can use TC up to x32 but no more. You get some amount of time compression, yet you can see everything that happens be it contacts, weather, dusk/dawn etc.

Dantenoc · 03-06-06, 09:16 PM

Its a loosing battle. Don't think about it or you'll loose your mind. Its a no win situation.

Myself, I work very little, and have plenty of time, but I don't think its much fun to just stare at a screen in real time for hours upon hours without nothing going on

... so its not just a matter of having time. I mean, what good is "playing" at 1xTC if you're watching TV or reading or something else?... that's not an "inmersing" experience, is it? You hit the nail right in the head when you mentioned that there just isn't anything to do in the game to kill the time.

On the other hand, you DO need to ease off a bit on the TC. Myself, I'll never go higher than 256xTC, since it is generaly beleived that going higher affects the game's performance relating to contacts.

In dangerous waters (surfaced under heavy allied air coverage), I tend to play at 64xTC... I like that one because it takes 1 minute to simulate one hour (more or less), so it's a nice balance between the need to speed the game up and the need to guard yourself against "sudden" surprises from enemies.

During combat maneuvers I'll play at 1xTC, since it's pretty easy to get killed even on low TC settings such as 8xTC (the game doesn't give you the same audio warnings as in 1xTC... depth charges won't sound, for example.

You'll just have to figure out something that works for you... good luck

Dantenoc · 03-06-06, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMarkwick

Try a half-way house, on the bridge you can use TC up to x32 but no more. You get some amount of time compression, yet you can see everything that happens be it contacts, weather, dusk/dawn etc.

That's a good Idea... unfortunately, It wouldn't work for me. I can't bear the thought of taking my eyes off the nav-map and consequentaly loose radio contacts. Why didn't the devs make it so that the crew will inform you of ALL such reports?!?!

they report some, but very few

pythos · 03-06-06, 10:58 PM

There is no need to justify this. It is actually better to leave the machine running until you absolutely need to reboot. Electronics like a steady flow of electricity, and the start up process is actually more damaging to the circuits than letting the machine remain on idle.

I learned this when working on airliners. Those plane's navigation and flight systems are not powered down unless the ship (yes they are reffered to as ships, A 747 IS a ship) is getting prepped for a full tear down inspection. The process of shutting an airliner down for this check is litterally called, "putting the beast to sleep" It is a long involved process which is second only to the process of "waking the beast up". It is quite something. The process takes about an half hour to a full hour. If it is done wrong, Millions of dollars go straight down the tube.

Any how, Your computer is actually better left on, with the monitor switched off. I do this all the time (yes with a boat sailing along after a save)

THE_MASK · 03-06-06, 11:41 PM

I have said all along that this game is best at No TC but for me allas it will never happen .

U-Dog · 03-07-06, 12:22 AM

Gotta agree that too much time compression can ruin the game.
But look at is as an opportunity, I mean you can have exactly as much activity as you want. Go with your mood, atleast that's what i do. Accept that running Hydrophone checks with just an inexperienced PO you will miss some. Or don't and grab the headphones and listen yourself.

It's a good point you raise, it really is. But this game is funny, it's not really just the actionthat creates the drama, but also the periods of inaction. The silence in between the notes muscians say I guess.

On a more practical note, I will say I tend to use 64 or at most 128 TC when patrolling or in what I call an active area. So if those sneakly aeroplanes are about or what not. I do wish I could spend more time inside the sub, rather than at the navigation map-TC in the command room is not fun IMO.

So in short , good question! I hope you can answer it.
And I realizxed tonight I could watch a couple hours of crud TV or I could stooge around in my Type II off the coast of England...and my time off England was quite a bit more dramatic than the boob tube even though I've not sunk a thing yet.

All the best to ya MarkQuinn,
and watch our for seagull droppings those things are darned hard to wash out!!

Myszkin · 03-07-06, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkQuinn

Here's the problem. I start my campaigns in 1939. I like the Type VII so of course I start with the 7th Flotilla. That means if I wanted to play in real time I would have 3-4 days heading north and then west around the peninsula (not sure of its name) with absolutely no chance of attacking or being attacked, safe in German waters.

Hey, hey - you forgot that war broke out on 01 Sep 1939 - Germany invaded Poland.

So you might spotted polish ships at Baltic and in Kattegat, Skagerrak etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkQuinn

around the peninsula (not sure of its name)

It's Jutland Penisula.

Kaptan Tommy · 03-07-06, 07:35 AM

This must be why there are no "rules" shipped with the game - only instructions. We all seem to play the game differently (which I find interesting all by itself). I have two mornings a week that I can give to 'patrols'. The rest of the time I'm at work, coming home from work, sleeping in preparation for work, or going to work. And in between all this I have to devote some time to my wife (thank goodness the kids are gone!!!).

I took my laptop with me once and tried SH while in the hotel. Disaster! I almost forgot to go to bed. 4 hours sleep is just not enough.

So for me, time compression is a life saver. I don't like 1024 because the game acts funny when I try to do things like move the cursor, crank down the TC, etc. And I only use the 512 when I'm in friendly waters and just don't want to eat up valuable gaming time 'pleasure cruising'.

And real time all the time is just plain out. I haven't got a spare 5 years lying around.

If I'm really strapped for time, I have an 'experimental' Captain whose only purpose in life (my life anyway) is to go on 'experimental' patrols and try stuff I'd be afraid to try with my REAL Captain. Gutsy, nervy, let's kill 'em all type stuff. If he dies, oh well, I'll just resurect him again next time. It is, after all, a game, and we all obviously play it differently. The idea is to enjoy it, and I ENJOY the HELL out of this game!!!

************

As an aside, our computers are on 24/7 in this house. We shut them off when we go on vacation.

brumbarchris · 03-07-06, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Hey, hey - you forgot that war broke out on 01 Sep 1939 - Germany invaded Poland.

If you remember there were polish rogues who attacked the german border radio station. The german invasion was only a fair retaliation.

Regards,
Chris[/quote]

Inajira · 03-07-06, 07:59 AM

Quote:

so what? You just start again.

All good ideas and I won't add more relating to TC. However, if you want to stop from "going through the motions', play a Dead is DEAD campaign (and be honest wth yourself). Nothing like it for the adrenalin to hear depth charges exploding above and knowing that a lucky shot could send your WHOLE CAMPAIGN to Davey Jones' locker!

Myszkin · 03-07-06, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brumbarchris

Quote:

Hey, hey - you forgot that war broke out on 01 Sep 1939 - Germany invaded Poland.

If you remember there were polish rogues who attacked the german border radio station. The german invasion was only a fair retaliation.

Regards,
Chris

[/quote]

Or your post is only poor provocation or your history knowledge is very, very little.

Attack on german radio station at Gliwice (Gliwitz) was, in fact, prepared by Germans (german soldiers used a polish military clothes) to give Hitler a reason for Poland invasion!!!

Brumbarchris - BACK TO SCHOOL!!! AT ONCE!!!

MarshalLaw · 03-07-06, 09:20 AM

Time compression for me is a good thing. My time is limited as well, However I rarely go beyond 512. and if I'm recharging batteries with the snorkel late in the war only 64, anymore and you risk getting sunk because you have little to no warning.

Jusa_Finn · 03-07-06, 10:26 AM

Btw. The peninsula you mentioned is Denmark.

03-07-06, 12:47 PM

I usually run at x2048, though I have my TC set to go as high as x4096 (AOD spoiled me that way). I usually only go to 1024 if my machine is running rough. Lost contacts? I think the game gives way to many contacts anyway, even with RUB and the 20/20 mod. On the other hand, I have been attacked by aircraft and had no time to dive...thank goodness I'm using the Airpower Mod and it's 1940 so they usually miss.

I'm seriously considering limiting myself to x256, but I run my campaign one game week at a sitting; if I encounter nothing it's boring even at x2048, and if I do run into a target it could take me hours, as I find myself running the attack in real time even when I promised myself I'd save time by using TC. You see, I take notes about everything that happens for later use in my patrol logs, and that in itself is time-consuming.

Every man for himself, I guess.

03-06-06, 08:36 PM	#1
MarkQuinn A-ganger Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 71 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Long post about dealing with long patrols I've been going through a Silent Hunter III crisis lately. Don't get me wrong, I love the game. I've been waiting for a game like this --- a nuatical semi-simulation with a dynamic, evolving campaign and immersive graphics and sounds --- for a long time. When I first got it, I completely redesigned my computer desk so that everywhere you looked there was something that had to do with submarines or the sea. I also kept my notebook, a pencil, reference material and such within arms reach. I took all my other games (some 40 of them) away from their tray beneath my desk and stashed them away in a distant cabinet. Silent Hunter III would be the only game I would ever need to play (aside from The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, an RPG which may not appeal to most of the naval buffs on this forum, coming out in two weeks). My goal was to do all my patrols in real time. A daunting task, to be sure. But I wouldn't be actively PLAYING during that time. I would be reading and studying. It would be more than a game: it would be an interactive classroom where I would learn about the war while occasionally testing my virtual mettle against allied destroyers and aircraft. How many folks here have actually played one or more patrols in real time, without using the time compression even once? To me, it's much harder than I thought. Here's the problem. I start my campaigns in 1939. I like the Type VII so of course I start with the 7th Flotilla. That means if I wanted to play in real time I would have 3-4 days heading north and then west around the peninsula (not sure of its name) with absolutely no chance of attacking or being attacked, safe in German waters. Yes, I could start at a later date and sail from France, cutting down on the sailing time before I get into the action. And mind you, it's not ACTION that I crave per se, but the hunt. This is important: sailing through waters in real time where at any moment you may stumble upon prey is far more exciting than sailing through safe waters where you'll find nothing --- even if, in both conditions, you sail for hours without so much as a ship siting. Bottom line, I've learned to start using that time compression button, and usually keep it at 1024. So what! you say. We all use it! Well, if you use it and have no qualms about it, then you can stop reading here and you have my apologies for taking you this far. If, however, you are like me and want to extract the whole experience --- or as much as possible given the medium on which we play --- INCLUDING the boredom, perhaps you can pass along some tips, methods, hints, systems or mindsets you use to have your cake and eat it too. The problem with time compression, at least for me, is that once you use it in a campaign, you have the tendency to become overzealous with it. Here's what I mean. You've sailed from Kiel, around the peninsula then west north west toward the British Isles and Scapa Flow. You've done it all in 1024 compression (or whatever you use), slowing down only when forced to do so by a radio message or a friendly contact. Now you're somewhere off the coast of Scotland and you finally have an enemy merchant contact. Problem is, he's 40 km away and yes, it's gonna take you a while to reach him. So what do you do? Well, you've gone this far in time compression, so why not go the rest of the way? You speed up the game and slow down to do a hydropone check only if you pass the estimated contact area without spotting him. the game slows down for a while and now, for the first time, you only BEGIN to enjoy some of the tension, some of the HUNT of a real U-Boot commander and crew as you listen silently under the waves. When your sonar man calls out the contact, and especially if he's headed away from you, of course you surface for more speed and hit that time compression button a couple times, hoping your watch crew will see him. Only when he is in sight do you prepare for your first extended period in real time as you plot your attack run. It all seems so artifical to me, like a throw away campaign. After all, you haven't invested days or weeks in this campaign, so if you miss, or if the RAF should catch you, so what? You just start again. Last night I did an entire patrol in 45 minutes. It wasn't fun. It was "going through the motions". Now don't get me wrong. As far as problems in games go, THIS is by far not the worst problem you can have. Afterall, how can you complain that the world is TOO big or that sailing times are TOO close to reality? Like I said, I've been wanting something like that for a long time. But now that I have it, I'm not sure exactly what to do with it. I work 40+ hours a week, which just leaves a couple hours a day for me to play SH3 (of course I have a life outside of this also which needs tending to). I refuse to let Sh3 run for a long time when I am not there or sleeping. Not because I'm afraid I'll be sunk (I would, afterall, do it in friendly waters only), but because I can't justify leaving my PC and all it's intricate parts powered up and heating up for hours upon hours all day --- especially (and this is the irony) when time compression will get me there just the same, but in a fraction of the time. So, to those who think the way I do, but who have had SH3 much longer than I have (I've had it for about a month), how --- if at all --- have you overcome this dilemma? Perhaps you have set rules for yourself and with great discipline told yourself you would sail up to a certain point, a certain danger zone, THEN sail in real time no matter how long you go without a contact, etc. Or perhaps you've said you would sail with time compression up until your first enemy contact, THEN gone in to real time and stayed there until the end of your 24 patrol of the designated zone. Or perhaps you've grinned, beared it, played the whole damn thing in real time and can attest that once you really get it going (and find a nice pasttime for yourself), it's really not so agonizngly bad. I know boredom was a problem on long patrols. But on long patrols, men had jobs to do to pass the time. They also had friendships and camaraderie and systems that needed attended to. All we have are a few two dimensional screens and the repetition of our officer's animations. It's a different kind of boredom, suited perhaps for a five hour gaming session, but certainly NOT suited for a 10 day patrol. Any thoughts? MQ

03-06-06, 10:58 PM	#5
pythos Grey Wolf Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere over there Posts: 834 Downloads: 46 Uploads: 0	about leaving your comp on for extended periods There is no need to justify this. It is actually better to leave the machine running until you absolutely need to reboot. Electronics like a steady flow of electricity, and the start up process is actually more damaging to the circuits than letting the machine remain on idle. I learned this when working on airliners. Those plane's navigation and flight systems are not powered down unless the ship (yes they are reffered to as ships, A 747 IS a ship) is getting prepped for a full tear down inspection. The process of shutting an airliner down for this check is litterally called, "putting the beast to sleep" It is a long involved process which is second only to the process of "waking the beast up". It is quite something. The process takes about an half hour to a full hour. If it is done wrong, Millions of dollars go straight down the tube. Any how, Your computer is actually better left on, with the monitor switched off. I do this all the time (yes with a boat sailing along after a save)

03-07-06, 07:35 AM	#9
Kaptan Tommy Planesman Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: USA Carson City, NV Posts: 182 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	This must be why there are no "rules" shipped with the game - only instructions. We all seem to play the game differently (which I find interesting all by itself). I have two mornings a week that I can give to 'patrols'. The rest of the time I'm at work, coming home from work, sleeping in preparation for work, or going to work. And in between all this I have to devote some time to my wife (thank goodness the kids are gone!!!). I took my laptop with me once and tried SH while in the hotel. Disaster! I almost forgot to go to bed. 4 hours sleep is just not enough. So for me, time compression is a life saver. I don't like 1024 because the game acts funny when I try to do things like move the cursor, crank down the TC, etc. And I only use the 512 when I'm in friendly waters and just don't want to eat up valuable gaming time 'pleasure cruising'. And real time all the time is just plain out. I haven't got a spare 5 years lying around. If I'm really strapped for time, I have an 'experimental' Captain whose only purpose in life (my life anyway) is to go on 'experimental' patrols and try stuff I'd be afraid to try with my REAL Captain. Gutsy, nervy, let's kill 'em all type stuff. If he dies, oh well, I'll just resurect him again next time. It is, after all, a game, and we all obviously play it differently. The idea is to enjoy it, and I ENJOY the HELL out of this game!!! ************ As an aside, our computers are on 24/7 in this house. We shut them off when we go on vacation. __________________ Quit farting around reading the forums and sink some ships!

03-06-06, 09:15 PM	#2
DMarkwick Shore leave Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 70 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Try a half-way house, on the bridge you can use TC up to x32 but no more. You get some amount of time compression, yet you can see everything that happens be it contacts, weather, dusk/dawn etc.

03-06-06, 09:16 PM	#3
Dantenoc Captain Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ensenada, B.C., Mexico Posts: 504 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Its a loosing battle. Don't think about it or you'll loose your mind. Its a no win situation. Myself, I work very little, and have plenty of time, but I don't think its much fun to just stare at a screen in real time for hours upon hours without nothing going on ... so its not just a matter of having time. I mean, what good is "playing" at 1xTC if you're watching TV or reading or something else?... that's not an "inmersing" experience, is it? You hit the nail right in the head when you mentioned that there just isn't anything to do in the game to kill the time. On the other hand, you DO need to ease off a bit on the TC. Myself, I'll never go higher than 256xTC, since it is generaly beleived that going higher affects the game's performance relating to contacts. In dangerous waters (surfaced under heavy allied air coverage), I tend to play at 64xTC... I like that one because it takes 1 minute to simulate one hour (more or less), so it's a nice balance between the need to speed the game up and the need to guard yourself against "sudden" surprises from enemies. During combat maneuvers I'll play at 1xTC, since it's pretty easy to get killed even on low TC settings such as 8xTC (the game doesn't give you the same audio warnings as in 1xTC... depth charges won't sound, for example. You'll just have to figure out something that works for you... good luck

03-06-06, 11:41 PM	#6
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	I have said all along that this game is best at No TC but for me allas it will never happen .

03-07-06, 12:22 AM	#7
U-Dog Torpedoman Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 111 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Gotta agree that too much time compression can ruin the game. But look at is as an opportunity, I mean you can have exactly as much activity as you want. Go with your mood, atleast that's what i do. Accept that running Hydrophone checks with just an inexperienced PO you will miss some. Or don't and grab the headphones and listen yourself. It's a good point you raise, it really is. But this game is funny, it's not really just the actionthat creates the drama, but also the periods of inaction. The silence in between the notes muscians say I guess. On a more practical note, I will say I tend to use 64 or at most 128 TC when patrolling or in what I call an active area. So if those sneakly aeroplanes are about or what not. I do wish I could spend more time inside the sub, rather than at the navigation map-TC in the command room is not fun IMO. So in short , good question! I hope you can answer it. And I realizxed tonight I could watch a couple hours of crud TV or I could stooge around in my Type II off the coast of England...and my time off England was quite a bit more dramatic than the boob tube even though I've not sunk a thing yet. All the best to ya MarkQuinn, and watch our for seagull droppings those things are darned hard to wash out!!

03-07-06, 09:20 AM	#13
MarshalLaw Navy Dude Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Orlando Fla USA Posts: 174 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Time compression for me is a good thing. My time is limited as well, However I rarely go beyond 512. and if I'm recharging batteries with the snorkel late in the war only 64, anymore and you risk getting sunk because you have little to no warning.

03-07-06, 10:26 AM	#14
Jusa_Finn Bosun Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vantaa, Finland Posts: 67 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Btw. The peninsula you mentioned is Denmark.

03-07-06, 12:47 PM	#15
Sailor Steve Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I usually run at x2048, though I have my TC set to go as high as x4096 (AOD spoiled me that way). I usually only go to 1024 if my machine is running rough. Lost contacts? I think the game gives way to many contacts anyway, even with RUB and the 20/20 mod. On the other hand, I have been attacked by aircraft and had no time to dive...thank goodness I'm using the Airpower Mod and it's 1940 so they usually miss. I'm seriously considering limiting myself to x256, but I run my campaign one game week at a sitting; if I encounter nothing it's boring even at x2048, and if I do run into a target it could take me hours, as I find myself running the attack in real time even when I promised myself I'd save time by using TC. You see, I take notes about everything that happens for later use in my patrol logs, and that in itself is time-consuming. Every man for himself, I guess.