How do you escort a SAG with a sub?

[MarkShot]

In the spirit of "how do you" questions like "how do you sneak into a port", here is my contribution:

How do you escort a SAG and provide ASW security?

In this particular case the SAG is moving at 10kts in deep water.

The problems I have with this type of scenario are:

(1) There are so many friendlies in the SAG that the sonar waterfall is totally cluttered with their noise. How am I going to find the faint single NB line that hints a sub it on the prowl?

(2) I have to get sufficiently out in front of the SAG that I can take out an enemy sub before he launches weapons. Given all the noise the SAG (prop and active sonar) is making, I figure they must be identifiable at 30nmi or so. The problem is how do I get out in front of them fast and not turn myself into a target? I am going to need to sprints at 20+ kts or better. During those sprints I will be noisy and blind. I am certain that coming out of one of those sprints I will hear a TIW. (Of course, that may be a good way of smoking out a sub; if I survive - sort of an inverse recon by fire.)

(3) What if while sprinting in #2, the enemy maintains his stealth and simply lays in wait for the SAG? Or what if he makes his attack run from one of the flanks?

(4) Oh, one more little wrinkle in this particular scenario. There is one other LA class sub also providing escort ASW. How do I avoid finding and killing him by accident while not waiting for a full ID to shoot? I guess that may be the easiest to answer - if the first NB line is 50Hz shoot; if 60Hz it is my sister ship.

Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.

[sonar732]

Keep the SAG in your baffles for starters. Also, I might suggest you move in 45 degree angles from the SAG to keep minimum amount of ships in your TA. As you said...keep scanning NB for the tell-tale 50 Hz tonal.

[Molon Labe]

With a SAG moving that slowly, can maintain a moderate transit/patrol speed without having to sprint periodically and make a beacon of yourself. Also consider that the noise of the SAG is more of an advantage than a disadvantage. It barely hurts you because it is behind you, opposite of the direction the enemy sub must approach (unless the enemy sub wants to go fast an make an easy sonar mark itself). You, on the other hand, will be on the about the same bearing as the ships you're escorting from the point of view of the enemy, unitil you get very close. He'll have a much harder time picking you out of the clutter than you'll have for him.

It's true that a sub can lie in wait in front of the path of the SAG, but if you throw in a little zig zagging you make the point of intercept harder to predict and can force the sub to manuever.

[Banquet]

Hey Markshot - shouldn't you be beta testing CotA?

I just downloaded DW on Steam last night. Seems very good. I only had time to try the 1st mission. Spent half an hour trying to get the FFG out of the port (only clonked her once!) then got attacked by a pesky little boat. Looking forward to having another go tonight.

Sorry for off topic.

[Deathblow]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

(2) I have to get sufficiently out in front of the SAG that I can take out an enemy sub before he launches weapons. Given all the noise the SAG (prop and active sonar) is making, I figure they must be identifiable at 30nmi or so. The problem is how do I get out in front of them fast and not turn myself into a target? I am going to need to sprints at 20+ kts or better. During those sprints I will be noisy and blind. I am certain that coming out of one of those sprints I will hear a TIW. (Of course, that may be a good way of smoking out a sub; if I survive - sort of an inverse recon by fire.)

I have an issue with this as well. My belief, from what I've read and what seems logical, is that sub "escorts" actually operate far ahead of a SAG to give them time to prosecute an attack on a potential contact without its escorts overrunning its protection. This sources says hundreads of km ahead of the CVG http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ip/ssn-688.htm

I've also read that their are rules and zones for "combined" surface/sub groups where the surface groups let the subs do all the ASW in a certain perimeter and only do their own ASW within a certain range to keep friendly fire risk as low as can be expected.

My impression is that too many mission designer put ther sub "escorts" way too close to the SAG they are escorting.

In this particular case the SAG is moving at 10kts in deep water.

Its also my understanding that if a SAG is worried about enemy subs, then speeding up is tatic that's crucial.... speed is life. Otherwise, for what reason is the SAG purposely moving that slowly?

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

In the spirit of "how do you" questions like "how do you sneak into a port", here is my contribution:

How do you escort a SAG and provide ASW security?

It really depends on what the SAG is doing. From what you described, I'm taking it the SAG is transiting at 10kts or was it doing something else? What kind of SAG are you talking about?

The problems I have with this type of scenario are:

(1) There are so many friendlies in the SAG that the sonar waterfall is totally cluttered with their noise. How am I going to find the faint single NB line that hints a sub it on the prowl?

The answer is provided by kinematics. There exists a thing called the limiting lines of approach. These describe the locus of all points within which a target can approach a given distance to your SAG. So long as you have sufficient sonar detection range to cover the arc within the limiting lines of approach, you should be okay. You might even be willing to accept less than 100% coverage, depending on how confident you are in the SAG at defending itself.

You also have to resign yourself to the fact that in this scenario, you are unlikely to be able defend against everything perfectly. In this case, I would let the SAG deal with any cruise missile shooters from the flanks. All you can hope to catch is the odd torpedo shooter coming from the center.

(2) I have to get sufficiently out in front of the SAG that I can take out an enemy sub before he launches weapons. Given all the noise the SAG (prop and active sonar) is making, I figure they must be identifiable at 30nmi or so. The problem is how do I get out in front of them fast and not turn myself into a target?

You don't.

I am going to need to sprints at 20+ kts or better. During those sprints I will be noisy and blind. I am certain that coming out of one of those sprints I will hear a TIW. (Of course, that may be a good way of smoking out a sub; if I survive - sort of an inverse recon by fire.)

We had a discussion earlier, where we came to the conclusion that sprint and drift was a bad tactic. There actually exists some mathematics to it, but unfortunately, it's one of those things that's hard to actually execute.

(3) What if while sprinting in #2, the enemy maintains his stealth and simply lays in wait for the SAG?

That's actually, probably the smartest thing he can do.

Or what if he makes his attack run from one of the flanks?

Without cruise missiles, attacking from the flanks is unlikely. With cruise missiles, it's unlikely you can defend anyway. This is really not a good situation for a submarine to be used.

(4) Oh, one more little wrinkle in this particular scenario. There is one other LA class sub also providing escort ASW. How do I avoid finding and killing him by accident while not waiting for a full ID to shoot?

Talk to him on underwater telephone? Other than that, you probably can't.

I guess that may be the easiest to answer - if the first NB line is 50Hz shoot; if 60Hz it is my sister ship.

If you get a 50Hz or 60Hz line. Some environments won't support that.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Deathblow

Its also my understanding that if a SAG is worried about enemy subs, then speeding up is tatic that's crucial.... speed is life. Otherwise, for what reason is the SAG purposely moving that slowly?

Absolutely. One of the advantages a surface ship has over a submarine is speed, particularly over diesel electric boats. Also, more abstractly, by going faster, you are narrowing the space in which possible subs can exist and attack you successfully, therefore increasing the likelihood of your survival. One should not be afraid to have a group of surface ships go as fast as they can.

[Sub Sailor]

What you have been discussing is a Sub supporting a surface group.
The US tactic was to use 3 boats, one ahead maybe up to 300 miles. This was based on the main threat being from the Oscar SSGN and it's SS-N-19 Shipwreck SSMs, range around 300 miles. Two subs were located on the flanks usually 30-40 miles out to handle SSNs trying to sneak in and a very brave Oscar skipper.
Now with cutbacks I am sure it has been changed. The boat out front was far enough out that the SAG did not present a problem, noise wise.
The SAG itself was to handle the close in ASW protection.
There was times during the cold war that we had the resources to actually use this, but in all honestly, most of the time DS was one boat way out ahead, and we sues sprint and drift. Apparently, according to what I read in this post it is being questioned. It works and we always thought, or at least we did it was the most effective way to use a sub. We even used during transients.

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

[MaHuJa]

(1) There are so many friendlies in the SAG that the sonar waterfall is totally cluttered with their noise. How am I going to find the faint single NB line that hints a sub it on the prowl?

Scanning the entire area for that 50-line and praying that you find him in time...

Use a UUV, which will automatically pick up most any contact in the area. It's threshold for detection has, at some point, been comparable to a towed array.

There's one more thing you can try. First, get up, and either link up or use your radar to locate all surface targets in the area. Then, dive, and use active sonar. Any case of a active contact not also being a radar contact is very very probably a sub. Now you have a location, and you know where to look. (Or shoot).

(2) I have to get sufficiently out in front of the SAG that I can take out an enemy sub before he launches weapons. Given all the noise the SAG (prop and active sonar) is making, I figure they must be identifiable at 30nmi or so. The problem is how do I get out in front of them fast and not turn myself into a target? I am going to need to sprints at 20+ kts or better. During those sprints I will be noisy and blind. I am certain that coming out of one of those sprints I will hear a TIW. (Of course, that may be a good way of smoking out a sub; if I survive - sort of an inverse recon by fire.)

Drop to 4 knots and launch a UUV. (Does kiloes have to drop to 3? Not that they're likely to get this sort of mission anyway.)

Then increase your speed. If someone launches a torpedo (except in UUV baffles), you're warned immediately.

Also, you can go for a lower speed (e.g. water depths/cavitation/acceptable noise levels) decides for you) and instead spend less time in the drifting phase.

Also note that the TB-16 towed array can still listen well at ~18 knots. Both US subs carry them - with the seawolf it's the non-standard towed array. Same goes for 688i with the LWAMI mod, both are there without the mod.


(Another bad idea of many mission designers is to have those sags run 25knots+ and still use active sonar. Then again, EMCON is merely a toggle, and only recently was a way to still have them use radar found.)


(3) What if while sprinting in #2, the enemy maintains his stealth and simply lays in wait for the SAG? Or what if he makes his attack run from one of the flanks?

As somebody said already, simply avoiding the sub probably the smart thing for said enemy to do. What you can do about it? You just have to drift often enough to detect him with a sensor sweep. And again, pray, or use active sonar, or...

(4) Oh, one more little wrinkle in this particular scenario. There is one other LA class sub also providing escort ASW. How do I avoid finding and killing him by accident while not waiting for a full ID to shoot? I guess that may be the easiest to answer - if the first NB line is 50Hz shoot; if 60Hz it is my sister ship.

More tips - All subs have a 125, though there are some ships too, like the fishing boat. At least among the playables, 320 is nuke and 340 is diesel. But if you know that, he's usually either running, stupid, or too damn close.

(stupid = cavitating for no good reason, hallmark of ai subs in quick missions)