Taking on destroyers is really too easy....

[Marcus]

Hi all,

Don't know if you all have the same experience as I have. I play at 84% realism with IUB 1.02. When I encounter destroyers I surface and finish them with my deck gun (fair weather only of course) before they come into my 2500 meter radius. Then they back off before they get sunk and can be hunted easyly. Bit more difficult with more destroyers of course. This could not have been the case in WWII I guess, so why is everybody so afraight of these destroyers. Have to add that it is still before the end of '43 though. Maybe this changes after that with the airsupport.
SO, in a word, too easy..... agreed?

[Gizzmoe]

Try some real tactics! Don´t get into gunfights with destroyers, that´s highly unrealistic. You exploit weaknesses of SH3! IRL a single hit into the pressure hull would mean that you are unable to dive (not so in SH3) and a submarine captain would never risk that. Dive when they are around, torpedo them if you like and use standard evasion tactics.

[Marcus]

I am doing that since a few weeks now to match "reality", but even torpedoing them is fairly easy when they come in a straight line at you within 500 m.
I am using evasive tactics as a challenge now, but is there some mod that repairs this unrealistic feature?

[Gizzmoe]

Originally Posted by Marcus

I am using evasive tactics as a challenge now, but is there some mod that repairs this unrealistic feature?

What exactly do you want to see fixed?

[Marcus]

Well, three things actually:
1. increasing expertise at shooting from a distance from the destroyer (= chance of hitting me)
2. keep zigzagging at sub instead of straight line last 500 m
3. increas damage from hit at sub

and maybe a fourth: set depth charges more superficially when overrunning a sub at persicope depth.

Easy, not?

[P_Funk]

Remember that the reason the Destroyer probably misses alot is because the thin sillouette of a U-boat is very small and that ship mounted guns are usually intended for larger vessels with broader hulls. However often the "intelligence"of Destroyer captains in SH3 isn't something for the great British Navy to be proud of.

[Heibges]

It's been that way since Silent Service, Silent Service II, Silent Hunter, Silent Hunter II, and now Silent Hunter III.

It's best not to engage them at all, a practice I have made a point of doing since Silent Service

And least in Sh3 game, you can't take them out at 7000m with the deckgun like you could with all the rest.

Besides overusing of the hydrophones to find targets, engaging escorts is the largest exploit in a subsim.

[CB..]

I'm not sure just how much effect these entrys have on the destroyer gunnery BUT;

open the sim.cfg file (with notepad for the novice)

and edit these entrys
[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=10 ;[deg]
Max fire range=6000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=12 ;[s]


reduce the error angle and wait time then increase the range and if the logic applies to the main guns then they should be far more dangerous

try

[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=0 ;[deg]
Max fire range=8000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=5 ;[s]

for example--

otherwise there are variuos tweak programs (time travelors) which should enable more direct control over the DD main guns

[Der Teddy Bar]

I beleive that with the SimHQ Tonnage War mod that players will learn quickly not to attack an escort while surfaced. If all works well, the infamous bow shot will rarely result in a kill.

With the Tonnage War mod it will also give the player reason to respect an merchant ship that is armed with a deck gun. This is due to the fact that it is now quite difficult to sink a merchant ship via the deck gun and that the deck gun crew are now more readily wounded or killed.

It will be essential to aim at or just below the water line. No longer will targeting the pointy end of the bow sink any merchant vessel in the game.

People can keep their quick reload times, and even the targeting cross hair as it of little value plummeting the upper deck with the deck gun. And these two items offer no additional benifit under the new ship model. In fact, I would say that the cross has to now stay as it would be impractical to aim at the water line otherwise. A nice discret dot would be nice though.

As a consequence of having to aim at the water line, you also now have to be a lot further from the vessel, again making it harder.

[Marhkimov]

Der Teddy Bar,

Forgive me for not knowing, but what is this SimHQ Tonnage War mod?

[Der Teddy Bar]

marhkimov,
It is a project undertaken by myself and Observer and is designed to put the focus back onto sinking ships. It is intended to enhance, not replace, RUB.


The SimHQ Tonnage War mod will encompass several key aspects that complement each other and we expect to make a more in-depth gaming experience.

Cute 'mod' names to follow...

Tonnage War – As it says, Tonnage is in, renown is out. Upgrades are FREE but take time.
Sinking – How would you like to see a coastal merchant take a torpedo around the engine room and not know if it will sink or not?
Morale – Moving away from punishing the player through ‘fatigue’. Morale will slowly be removed thus slightly impacting upon the performance of your men, but, sink a ship and the Morale will raise. Your success or failures will impact upon your men’s performance. Take a long voyage will not cripple your boat.

All the parts make up the whole. The Tonnage War mod is both the whole and a part.

The Tonnage War mod will put the emphasis back into sinking ships. Essentially moving away from the renown based upgrade system.

Everything is free. However, upgrades will now take time. Upgrade from a Type II to a VII will take 75 days. It will take 35 days to get your diesel engines upgrades and 45 days to get a new AA platform (i.e. conning tower) installed. The times will be as historically correct as we can be within the confines of the game.

Your medals will be given according to your tonnage and as per the historical average.


The Morale mod will make your success and actions a key component of how well your men perform.

Reckless actions where your men are injured or die will effect your crew's morale, which in turn effects their performance. Sadly, bad luck will also have an impact, life is hard as a captain.

Go a long time between sinking’s and again, this will impact upon your men’s performance. Not in a way to punish you, but it will be an impact.

Sink ships and your men will be in top spirits keeping your men’s performance at it peak within the limits of their 'Efficiency', Observer's new name for fatigue, a word that shall from here forth not be spoken of :rotfl:

We have also modified the deck gun, AA gun and the conning tower to now be more accurate in the way in which your men are or are not protected. Have your men at the deck gun or AA gun and expect high casualties when being faced with a barrage of 20mm fire. The conning tower crew will be OK, working within the confines of the game. However, a 3� gun will make short work of anyone within the conning tower. These changes do not make it impossible to man the deck gun against an Elco, just a high risk situation. As was the case in real life.


Sinking mod. Work has only been completed on the Coastal Merchant, Small Merchant, Liberty Cargo, Victory Cargo, C2 Cargo, C3 Cargo, Small Tanker, T2 Tanker and the T3 Tanker, we have now no notification of 'Enemy Unit Destroyed' until the moment that it slides under the water. How long will it take to slip under the water? See some examples below.

Of course the obvious question is
Q. Will I have to wait for it to sink?"
A. Well yes of course you will

Q. But I am in a hurry and don't want to wait around.
A. Not an issue, use another torpedo or the deck gun. You will be faced with the same dilemma a real captain faced, "do I need to waste another torpedo?"

Q. Will you get credit if you are not around when it sinks?
A. Not sure. To be tested.


The first coastal merchant was hit directly under the first mast behind the bridge at 11:14 and sunk at 11:27 – 13 minutes

The second coastal merchant was hit directly in line with the front edge of the bridge at 11:32 and sunk at 11:49 – 17 minutes

The third coastal merchant was hit directly under the life boat (in line with the funnels) on the bridge at 11:11 and sunk at 12.04 – 53 minutes

The fourth coastal merchant was hit directly in line with front halve of the front cargo container 12.00 and never sank even after 24 hours.


The first small merchant was hit at was is the centre of the front cargo container at 11:16 and sunk at 11:43 – 27 minutes

The second small merchant was hit directly under the rear mast at 11:43 and never sank.

The third small merchant was hit directly under the rear most life buoy at 11:11 and instantly went up in a massive explosion! Sank beneath the waves at 11.23.

The fourth small merchant was hit directly under the second life raft at the front of the bridge at 11:39 and never sank. Dead in the water though. Was on a 45 degree list and never sank even after 24 hours.

You may also need to move around to the other side of the vessel to make your torpedo count.

Is it designed to make things more difficult? No. Will it make thinks more difficult? Yes, but only to match up to what was historical.

[Excalibur Bane]

Well, if it makes you feel any better I saved awhile back at a point where I encountered a Hunt destroyer. I then tried a couple of times just to plain surface and destroy it flat out with my deckgun. He always won, and I lost. Badly.

I was in an IXB too with the larger deckgun and using AP shells. Didn't really matter though, he'd always cream me before I could pump enough shells into him to slow him down.

[PatAWilson]

Teddy Bar:
Sounds like an interesting mod but were small and coastal merchants really that durable? In general, how many torpedo hits did it take to bring down merchants of various types?

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by PatAWilson

Teddy Bar:
Sounds like an interesting mod but were small and coastal merchants really that durable? In general, how many torpedo hits did it take to bring down merchants of various types?

Small and Coastal merchant can sink with 1 torpedo. It is all depends on where you hit the ship. Then there is also the critical chance occuring.

Two torpedoes should almost always sink a Small and Coastal merchant.

Using the 88mm deck gun, with 100% hits at/under the water line, then it should take about 30+ shells.

[Skubber]

I just do not have this problem. If I am on the surface and destroyers attack me, I die.

For realism's sake, though, I do not personally man the deck gun. And so attacking a destroyer at range is a bit of a different consideration under these circumstances.

As far as I know, U-boat captains did not man the deck gun personally.

So what I am saying is this: If you play SH3 "arcade style" you can't really complain about it being too easy, or not realistic.

You are playing "FPS Deckgun Killer" I think. The destroyers are more easy to kill in that game, I guess. :hmm: