No weapons officer assistance, realistic or not?

[Viduka]

In SH3 100% realism requires the captain to make the torpedo calculations but I was wondering if anyone knows wether or not this was how it was done on the real U-boats?

I have read somewhere that it's the weapons officer that makes the calculations and that seems to make sense. :hmm:

What is unrealistic is that he makes the calculations extremely fast, in a split second, and that he have an terminator like hit percentage.

[kiwi_2005]

No, the captains did not do the calculations. I still use WO now and then.

About the WO being quick in calculating i wonder if his timing can be slowed down :hmm:

[Der Teddy Bar]

But using the manual tdc you don't have to do the calculations?

I think that the SHIII notepad is an excellent compromise and gives an excellent representation of the Captains role in making a submerged attack. As he gives the information and the solution done from this. The only flaw is the speed calc method. Which can be worked around by clicking the 'full' manual TDC at the bottom of the F6 screen.

I have always thought that no-one has ever got the auto tdc right. It is a difficult problem, in that it must be accurate enough to be real, but inaccurate enough to also be real. SHIII has not achieved this, as it is very accurate and very fast to be so.

The problem with slowing down the WO is that you cannot preplane a shot bearing, thus his calculation is only good for that instance.

[Viduka]

So the truest way to be firing torps is to use the notepad data then?

When you say the speed calc method is flawed, are you speaking of it's inaccuracy? As long as the range is correct then it should be ok?

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Viduka

When you say the speed calc method is flawed, are you speaking of it's inaccuracy? As long as the range is correct then it should be ok?

The method used to calculate the targets speed is cumbersom, unrealistic and also as soon as you loose contact it has to be redone again.

Actually the range and the AOB need to be correct. Be slightly out in the AOB and the speed will be miles out.

I use a combination of the notepad and a full manual tdc. Full manual tdc is done by clicking the button at the bottom of the F6 screen. When this is on, the speed must be done manually from in this screen, and the AOB and bearing will not be automatically updated. But that is of little hinderence.

Once I am on full manual tdc I will calculate the speed by plotting the target and using Wazoo's Nonograph Mod to calculate the speed. I then enter it into the TDC, that part is done.

Then I use the notepad to update the AOB and the relative bearing. Distance is of no concern once you know the speed.

So I wait for the target to get to where I want, and then with the scope at that bearing I click (twice to be sure) the notepad tick. This then updates the TDC relative bearing, same goes to update the AOB.

The benifit of this method is that I attack several ships quickly and easily in the one instance.

Hope that you understand the method.

[joea]

Damn must be doing something right, you described my method Teddy!!


Now if I can solve my saved game crashes.

[Viduka]

Thanks for that info teddy, sounds like a good plan. Did you mean that once you have AoB and speed that range doesn't matter anymore?

Joea, have you tried a fresh install? Does your PC meet the minimum requirements? Any conflicting mods? :hmm:

[Der Teddy Bar]

Originally Posted by Viduka

Thanks for that info teddy, sounds like a good plan. Did you mean that once you have AoB and speed that range doesn't matter anymore?

Range is only important for two things.

1. To plot the target to be used in calculating the speed.
2. To be in optimum range to make a shot and/or determine how long till you can fire i.e. how long before it is in front of you

In essence, once I have the speed, distance is no longer plays any significant part.

AOB and distance have no connection. As ploting the target only involves range and relative bearing.

Using the 100% manual tdc allows me to prepare my shot well in advance of the firimg time. I set the scope up on the releative bearing that I want to fire at, put in the AOB (that I expect the target to have) click the notepad (twice to ensure the update occurs) and wait. Have a quick Look and fine tune AOB, remember though, if you move the scope and update the AOB and click 'ok' then the scopes current relative bearing will be input, so just before firing you might wish to click the 'ok' again to ensure that the relative bearing is correct.

With this method, I have about a 95% success rate. I however rarely am in a position that does not allow me to fire from less than 1000 metres. This is without coming to an all stop.

[U-1966]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

No, the captains did not do the calculations. I still use WO now and then.

About the WO being quick in calculating i wonder if his timing can be slowed down :hmm:

Wrong...

Pick up a Biography or an auto-biography of a U-Boat Commander and all will be clear.

The CAPTAIN DID make the calculations while conducting a submerged periscope attack. He peared through the scope and called out the range, angle on bow, speed, and bearing. That info was then inputted into the TDC.

During a SURFACE ATTACK the First Watch Officer called out the caculations. But since in SHIII the AI is to fast, and hardly ever wrong it is definately NOT REALISTIC to use him.

Open a Book and READ!!!!! You'll see that the Captain called out the calculations on submerged attacks.

If you need a Movie to visualize it, then reflect back on Das Boot. During the first Destroyer Episode it was the CAPTAIN figuring out the data. During the surface attack on the Convoy it was the 1WO.

[Trav_R]

Der Teddy Bar:

Wow, I've been doing manual targetting this whole time and never realized that range doesn't matter. It took me about 30 minutes of pen, paper, protractor and calculator experimentation to realize that it's true. It raises the question of why range is even part of the TDC then? Is it only for the timer to work properly in guessing when the torpedo will hit?

[Viduka]

It hurts my brain trying to understand why the range doesn't matter when it comes to torp calculations

It was first brought to my attention when reading about the straight firing method, where everything is set to zero and you basically fire the torp straight ahead when the target is at the correct bearing and let the ship run into it.

If you have some easily explainable conclusions - go for it

[Trav_R]

Well, I would work on giving you an easily understandable explanation (couldn't guarantee one though.) Only problem is I just went in the game and played around with the TDC a bit. I set AOB to 90 stdb, speed to 20 knots, bearing to 0, and then left them alone. All I did was move the range dial around, and the gyro angle did change as I changed the range, as much as about 10 degrees when moving from 300m to 1000m. This seems to mean that range has a rather drastic effect on the solution, at least with a fast moving, close range target crossing your bow at 90 degrees.. Now my head hurts, since I've just finished proving to myself mathematically that range doesn't matter. I'm gonna have to wonder about this one for a while, hopefully someone will be able to explain this weirdness. I would give a shot at explaining why it doesn't matter, but since this happened, I apparently don't completely understand now, and I can't explain things if I don't completely understand them.

[Floater]

It is a tough one, isn't it? Flies in the face of logic. Yet, it's true. All you need is the speed and direction of the target, together with your own speed and direction, and range is simply there for the "will the torpedo arm in time?" and "will the torpedo run out of juice before it gets there?" questions.

Always does my head in.

[Viduka]

Yep, I feel your pain with the head hurting bit as stated, but isn't it great that a game can do this to you