china v japan

jumpy · 10-18-05, 06:53 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4352130.stm

Given the history of both countries (though currently perhaps Japan is viewed as no longer dictatorial/oppressive) is this not a case of the pot calling the kettle black?

Ok, the Japanese PM has been to the 'controversial' war shrine 5 times since becoming PM in 2001, but is this not in line with the japanese belief in spirituality and venerating the 'ancestors' and such?

If I were china (obviously I'm not hehe) I'd think long and hard about my policies toward my own citizens before criticising/sabre rattling and issuing deliberate political rhetoric against another nation, regardless of 'history'.
Surely the way is forwards not getting bogged down in endlessly rubbing salt into old wounds? Afterall chairman Mao was ultimately responsible for the deaths of many chinese (ok that's internal brutality by a nation to its people) but you don't hear the Japanese complaining about that...

Not really sure about much of it, but that's my first impression.

joea · 10-18-05, 11:50 AM

Hmmm what would be the reaction if a German Chancellor went to an SS memorial? However I suppose in Europe that is different.

If someone here were to bring up Isreal's current real or imagined misdeeds (or say Russia's in Chechnia) as a reason not to remember Nazi crimes there would be a huge outcry. I can't help feeling because it's Asia it matters less.

Mind you, part of the problem stems from the fact there is one memorial for all war dead without distinction, quite unlike my SS example.

Smaragdadler · 10-18-05, 12:04 PM

It's all about Chinas domestic power-politics. As long as the chinese masses are in fury about what was done to them by the Japanes decades ago, they don't start to ask too much what was done to them by the their masters "from the own tribe".... :hmm:

"You see, my children - I understand you. I am one of you and don't talk with these evil people who have done harm to you..."

August · 10-18-05, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joea

Mind you, part of the problem stems from the fact there is one memorial for all war dead without distinction, quite unlike my SS example.

The memorial is for 2.5 million dead soldiers and civilians among which are a mere 14 war criminals. Kinda puts it into perspective...

Psycluded · 10-18-05, 02:58 PM

Mountain of a mole-hill. Some people just have this insatiable desire to be outraged at all times...

Ghost Dog · 10-18-05, 04:48 PM

I agree, some people are just xenophobic. Our collective memory is longer than our individual. Its a little silly, I mean lets say the Germans make some strong satements about the french. some people would be up in arms, "There go the germans again!"

unfortunately ethno-cultural hatred and racism is everywhere. when will we will learn?

Kapitan · 10-19-05, 09:26 AM

japan has a very modern navy and air force and a good army and its quite large i do think japan stands a chance against china untill america can assist

TLAM Strike · 10-19-05, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapitain

japan has a very modern navy and air force and a good army and its quite large i do think japan stands a chance against china untill america can assist

Yikes not just America I think half the planet would come to Japan's assistance since so may nations have an economic interest in keeping Japan around.

Kapitan · 10-19-05, 11:08 AM

britain india russia france german australia to name a few

joea · 10-19-05, 01:28 PM

I really don't understand the answers to this thread. Seems people are mixing two different issues at least:
1) The extent to which Japan has/has not recognized a dark period in its past.

2) Dislike/distrust of the Chinese government's intentions and growing power.

I am sure if we spoke about Korean (or others) citizens or even the government protesting the Japanese government actions at Yakusuni (I agree with August in that it is a shrine for ALL Japanese war dead) or more serious the textbook issue, we would not be so harsh on the Koreans (well maybe the North Koreans

) . No one thinks South Korea is about to attack Japan or something. Second these attitudes for better or worse exist among ordinary people too...I have heard Koreans negative comments, yet know one lady who is married to a Japanese and lovees the country and culture.

I still feel if these attitudes portrayed by some Japanese were expressed in Eruope we would hear an outcry. In fact there have been those who expressed sympathy for the German side and been jumped on here (well one I recall). I like to take Polish attitudes as an example here, no question one of the biggest victims, (I AM NOT PICKING ON POLISH PEOPLE I THINK THEY ARE GREAT) yet a victim mentality sometimes. With Germans leads SOME(I have seen on some forums) Poles to not listen to how Germany was badly treated during Versailles or also suffered greatly during the war. Generally Germans have been concious and have "made amends" as it were. Poles tend to be p@#$% at Russians too, and in this case most Russians I have seen just say "we liberated you from the Nazis who wanted to exterminate you", true enough, yet never wish to admit their invasion in 39, nor the fact they imposed a Communist government on Poland. These biases exist in every country.

As for Japan, well things seem to be changing, a Japanese acquaintance on another forum stated these texts tend to be used by very few schools, most texts are produced by private groups which are more open and objective about positive and negative points of Japan's past.

10-18-05, 06:53 AM	#1
jumpy Admiral Join Date: May 2003 Location: Midlands, UK Posts: 2,139 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	china v japan http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4352130.stm Given the history of both countries (though currently perhaps Japan is viewed as no longer dictatorial/oppressive) is this not a case of the pot calling the kettle black? Ok, the Japanese PM has been to the 'controversial' war shrine 5 times since becoming PM in 2001, but is this not in line with the japanese belief in spirituality and venerating the 'ancestors' and such? If I were china (obviously I'm not hehe) I'd think long and hard about my policies toward my own citizens before criticising/sabre rattling and issuing deliberate political rhetoric against another nation, regardless of 'history'. Surely the way is forwards not getting bogged down in endlessly rubbing salt into old wounds? Afterall chairman Mao was ultimately responsible for the deaths of many chinese (ok that's internal brutality by a nation to its people) but you don't hear the Japanese complaining about that... Not really sure about much of it, but that's my first impression. __________________ when you’ve been so long in the desert, any water, no matter how brackish, looks like life

10-18-05, 02:58 PM	#5
Psycluded A-ganger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pacific Theater Posts: 71 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Mountain of a mole-hill. Some people just have this insatiable desire to be outraged at all times... __________________ Psycluded - Dad. Gamer. Programmer Captain, USS Drum (SS-228), Gato class US Submarine

10-19-05, 09:26 AM	#7
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,090 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 7	japan has a very modern navy and air force and a good army and its quite large i do think japan stands a chance against china untill america can assist __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

10-19-05, 11:08 AM	#9
Kapitan Sub Test Pilot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK + Canada Posts: 7,090 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 7	britain india russia france german australia to name a few __________________ DONT FORGET if you like a post to nominate it by using the blue diamond Find out about Museum Ships here: https://www.museumships.us/ Flickr for all my pictures: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131313936@N03/ Navy general board articles: https://www.navygeneralboard.com/author/aegis/

10-18-05, 11:50 AM	#2
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Hmmm what would be the reaction if a German Chancellor went to an SS memorial? However I suppose in Europe that is different. If someone here were to bring up Isreal's current real or imagined misdeeds (or say Russia's in Chechnia) as a reason not to remember Nazi crimes there would be a huge outcry. I can't help feeling because it's Asia it matters less. Mind you, part of the problem stems from the fact there is one memorial for all war dead without distinction, quite unlike my SS example.

10-18-05, 12:04 PM	#3
Smaragdadler XO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Thuringia Posts: 429 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	It's all about Chinas domestic power-politics. As long as the chinese masses are in fury about what was done to them by the Japanes decades ago, they don't start to ask too much what was done to them by the their masters "from the own tribe".... :hmm: "You see, my children - I understand you. I am one of you and don't talk with these evil people who have done harm to you..."

10-18-05, 04:48 PM	#6
Ghost Dog Planesman Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Olympus Mons, Mars Posts: 182 Downloads: 114 Uploads: 0	I agree, some people are just xenophobic. Our collective memory is longer than our individual. Its a little silly, I mean lets say the Germans make some strong satements about the french. some people would be up in arms, "There go the germans again!" unfortunately ethno-cultural hatred and racism is everywhere. when will we will learn?

10-19-05, 01:28 PM	#10
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	I really don't understand the answers to this thread. Seems people are mixing two different issues at least: 1) The extent to which Japan has/has not recognized a dark period in its past. 2) Dislike/distrust of the Chinese government's intentions and growing power. I am sure if we spoke about Korean (or others) citizens or even the government protesting the Japanese government actions at Yakusuni (I agree with August in that it is a shrine for ALL Japanese war dead) or more serious the textbook issue, we would not be so harsh on the Koreans (well maybe the North Koreans ) . No one thinks South Korea is about to attack Japan or something. Second these attitudes for better or worse exist among ordinary people too...I have heard Koreans negative comments, yet know one lady who is married to a Japanese and lovees the country and culture. I still feel if these attitudes portrayed by some Japanese were expressed in Eruope we would hear an outcry. In fact there have been those who expressed sympathy for the German side and been jumped on here (well one I recall). I like to take Polish attitudes as an example here, no question one of the biggest victims, (I AM NOT PICKING ON POLISH PEOPLE I THINK THEY ARE GREAT) yet a victim mentality sometimes. With Germans leads SOME(I have seen on some forums) Poles to not listen to how Germany was badly treated during Versailles or also suffered greatly during the war. Generally Germans have been concious and have "made amends" as it were. Poles tend to be p@#$% at Russians too, and in this case most Russians I have seen just say "we liberated you from the Nazis who wanted to exterminate you", true enough, yet never wish to admit their invasion in 39, nor the fact they imposed a Communist government on Poland. These biases exist in every country. As for Japan, well things seem to be changing, a Japanese acquaintance on another forum stated these texts tend to be used by very few schools, most texts are produced by private groups which are more open and objective about positive and negative points of Japan's past.