Help;HELP, HELP!!!

Sub Sailor · 10-07-05, 09:19 AM

I really need help learnig DW, just when I think I am gaining, it turns to s..t. I AM NOT COMPALING OR KNOCKING ANYTHING, I simple need help.
I have the printed manual, I believe I have copies of all the resources people have developed.
I am getting no where with sonar, I am an experienced SCX IIc player and 688i, I know these are different sims.
Here is my problem, I have tried soanr with auto crew on, and off and I still can not figure out contacts. I am only trying to learn the subs for now and the US subs to boot. I have even created a very simple scenario with an Akula and I am still haveing problems. Last night I was attcked from the stern, I turned on show truth and there was nothing there but two fish coming at me, the Akula was in front of me and it also had fired a fish, the nonexistent sub sank me and there was never another sub there, it was like a reciprocal of the fish from the Akula in fornt of me, except two torpedos.
What am I missing and also doing wrong? I know this is a difficult sim and that is fine, I am even consider fairly intlligent, so can anyone out there help me? I know this sim is a good one and that there are a lot of missions being designed for it but I am still stuck in learnig the basics. I have a very good knowledge of TMA, and sonar-I think- but I cannot figure out what is what. I do know, at least on my computer, Auto Crew Sonar has contacts all over the place. Also why is a contact, when I finally have one, somethimes moving from where I make it to thousands of yards away, I mean some really fast moving subs?
Please if anyone can help me I would really appreciate it. I would rather keep playing sub sims so don't tell me to I should take up tank sims, which is probably true, but I really want to learn this sim.

Thank you,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

randutoo · 10-07-05, 11:59 AM

I've only been playing for a week, but maybe my newbie observations can help

As for getting sunk from behind with no contact there, perhaps the Akula had fired earlier and his torps circled before homing in on you? I find myself turning on Truth when torps are in the water, just so I can see if they're fired at me or where they are so I can at least try to evade. I was in the FFG once with Truth off and evaded for 10 minutes wondering where the torps were, I finally took a straight course figuring I was safe and got sunk

It would be nice to have an option to show truth on torps only for guys like me who aren't ultra-realists

(I *LIKE* the auto-tma just fine the way it is, thank you very much!

)

Contacts may 'jump' if the auto-tma merges the most recent one with another on a simliar/close bearing, putting an 'M' before the contact number, so maybe that's what you're seeing? It's not always perfect, there may actually be 2 contacts along that line. Also it updates every two minutes I think, so a faster moving target can easily jump around a bit. Clicking on the contact shows the age of the last update. If it's older than 10 minutes I usually delete it to clean things up.

Another thing mentioned in tips is to change your course frequently to get new triangulated bearings on current contacts. That's a must. I've also noticed while playing the Seawolf that with auto-crew sonar on, he rarely changes from towed/hull/bow array, so I click on each one and let it sit for a few minutes and click the next array, etc. The more sources of input you have for a contact the better, and they show what sources saw the contact when you click on it.

Other than that, read everything in the tips and tricks pages, and some of the manuals and help files in the downloads area can help too. And then do a search here in he forum using keywords for your problem and see if there's already a thread on it as well. When all else fails ask questions, like I did

It can be aggravating at times, but it's defintely challenging

-Randu

Molon Labe · 10-07-05, 12:53 PM

I think you're getting suckered by the ambiguous contacts of the towed array. Whenever the towed array has receives a signal, it doesn't "know" what side it is coming in from, so the contact is displayed on BOTH sides of the array. So, when you're TA is centered on course 000, and you're scanning on your narrowband and a contact comes up on bearing 035, that same contact will also be displayed at bearing 325. Your task is to decide which of those bearings the contact is really on.

There are two ways you can settle this. The easiest, and least likely to be available, is to detect the contact on another sensor, like the Spherical or Hull array, or ESM.

The other way is to turn the boat. Once the TA completes its turn, one contact will be about where it was before the turn, the other will have moved really far. For example, if the boat above was turned to course 120, after the TA turns one contact may be at 035 and the other at 205. The one on 035 is the real contact (the 205 is just the "mirror" of 035 on the new course).

If you mark both contacts before the turn, you will be able to see one line moving radically during the turn. If you don't want to waste a tracker on a fake contact, you can scan the sonar during the turn, you will see one contact barely changing bearing, while the other one changes bearing significantly.

You can also check the TMA after the turn, if you didn't look at the sonar during the turn. The TMA line for both the real and fake contact during the turn will be off, but the TMA line after the turn will be close to the older ones, while the other one will be way off.

---
Another thing to keep in mind is the Akula can shoot missiles that drop torpedoes, so a TIW from an Akula won't necessarily be in the same direction as the Akula.

Molon Labe · 10-07-05, 12:58 PM

One more thing. Don't trust the sonar autocrew. It doesn't really manage its trackers very well, tends to detect things late, and generally clutters up the screen. It's worth it to learn to be proficient with the narrowband sonar, and if you can get missions with just one or two contacts in them its very easy to practice and learn what you're doing before moving on to more complex situations.

LuftWolf · 10-07-05, 01:42 PM

The two torpedos that "appeared" behind you were most likely SUBROC dropped torpedos.

Sub Sailor · 10-07-05, 04:49 PM

Dam forgot all about subroc, in fact did not even remember them at all, must be alzhiemers, had my 65th last month.
Now I have the idea, I was wondering if I was getting a reciprocal contact.
I will go back and see how it goes.

Thanks very much,

Ron Banks, MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

swimsalot · 10-09-05, 10:05 AM

Just a thought :try joining a virtual fleet.
I joined one (Seawolves), and had a more senior member spend an hour or so online doing a dive with me. Really helped me get the basics down, it's so much more effective than "just read the manual, dumba**!"
And try making a mission with just a neutral or 2, then practice making turns and watching the bearing change.
Good Luck, dont get frustrated, it gets better!

10-07-05, 09:19 AM	#1
Sub Sailor Commander Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Orofino, Idaho Posts: 443 Downloads: 66 Uploads: 0	Help;HELP, HELP!!! I really need help learnig DW, just when I think I am gaining, it turns to s..t. I AM NOT COMPALING OR KNOCKING ANYTHING, I simple need help. I have the printed manual, I believe I have copies of all the resources people have developed. I am getting no where with sonar, I am an experienced SCX IIc player and 688i, I know these are different sims. Here is my problem, I have tried soanr with auto crew on, and off and I still can not figure out contacts. I am only trying to learn the subs for now and the US subs to boot. I have even created a very simple scenario with an Akula and I am still haveing problems. Last night I was attcked from the stern, I turned on show truth and there was nothing there but two fish coming at me, the Akula was in front of me and it also had fired a fish, the nonexistent sub sank me and there was never another sub there, it was like a reciprocal of the fish from the Akula in fornt of me, except two torpedos. What am I missing and also doing wrong? I know this is a difficult sim and that is fine, I am even consider fairly intlligent, so can anyone out there help me? I know this sim is a good one and that there are a lot of missions being designed for it but I am still stuck in learnig the basics. I have a very good knowledge of TMA, and sonar-I think- but I cannot figure out what is what. I do know, at least on my computer, Auto Crew Sonar has contacts all over the place. Also why is a contact, when I finally have one, somethimes moving from where I make it to thousands of yards away, I mean some really fast moving subs? Please if anyone can help me I would really appreciate it. I would rather keep playing sub sims so don't tell me to I should take up tank sims, which is probably true, but I really want to learn this sim. Thank you, Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

10-07-05, 01:42 PM	#5
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	The two torpedos that "appeared" behind you were most likely SUBROC dropped torpedos. __________________ LW

10-07-05, 04:49 PM	#6
Sub Sailor Commander Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Orofino, Idaho Posts: 443 Downloads: 66 Uploads: 0	Thanks to all of you. Dam forgot all about subroc, in fact did not even remember them at all, must be alzhiemers, had my 65th last month. Now I have the idea, I was wondering if I was getting a reciprocal contact. I will go back and see how it goes. Thanks very much, Ron Banks, MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

10-07-05, 11:59 AM	#2
randutoo Nub Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 4 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I've only been playing for a week, but maybe my newbie observations can help As for getting sunk from behind with no contact there, perhaps the Akula had fired earlier and his torps circled before homing in on you? I find myself turning on Truth when torps are in the water, just so I can see if they're fired at me or where they are so I can at least try to evade. I was in the FFG once with Truth off and evaded for 10 minutes wondering where the torps were, I finally took a straight course figuring I was safe and got sunk It would be nice to have an option to show truth on torps only for guys like me who aren't ultra-realists (I LIKE the auto-tma just fine the way it is, thank you very much! ) Contacts may 'jump' if the auto-tma merges the most recent one with another on a simliar/close bearing, putting an 'M' before the contact number, so maybe that's what you're seeing? It's not always perfect, there may actually be 2 contacts along that line. Also it updates every two minutes I think, so a faster moving target can easily jump around a bit. Clicking on the contact shows the age of the last update. If it's older than 10 minutes I usually delete it to clean things up. Another thing mentioned in tips is to change your course frequently to get new triangulated bearings on current contacts. That's a must. I've also noticed while playing the Seawolf that with auto-crew sonar on, he rarely changes from towed/hull/bow array, so I click on each one and let it sit for a few minutes and click the next array, etc. The more sources of input you have for a contact the better, and they show what sources saw the contact when you click on it. Other than that, read everything in the tips and tricks pages, and some of the manuals and help files in the downloads area can help too. And then do a search here in he forum using keywords for your problem and see if there's already a thread on it as well. When all else fails ask questions, like I did It can be aggravating at times, but it's defintely challenging -Randu

10-07-05, 12:53 PM	#3
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	I think you're getting suckered by the ambiguous contacts of the towed array. Whenever the towed array has receives a signal, it doesn't "know" what side it is coming in from, so the contact is displayed on BOTH sides of the array. So, when you're TA is centered on course 000, and you're scanning on your narrowband and a contact comes up on bearing 035, that same contact will also be displayed at bearing 325. Your task is to decide which of those bearings the contact is really on. There are two ways you can settle this. The easiest, and least likely to be available, is to detect the contact on another sensor, like the Spherical or Hull array, or ESM. The other way is to turn the boat. Once the TA completes its turn, one contact will be about where it was before the turn, the other will have moved really far. For example, if the boat above was turned to course 120, after the TA turns one contact may be at 035 and the other at 205. The one on 035 is the real contact (the 205 is just the "mirror" of 035 on the new course). If you mark both contacts before the turn, you will be able to see one line moving radically during the turn. If you don't want to waste a tracker on a fake contact, you can scan the sonar during the turn, you will see one contact barely changing bearing, while the other one changes bearing significantly. You can also check the TMA after the turn, if you didn't look at the sonar during the turn. The TMA line for both the real and fake contact during the turn will be off, but the TMA line after the turn will be close to the older ones, while the other one will be way off. --- Another thing to keep in mind is the Akula can shoot missiles that drop torpedoes, so a TIW from an Akula won't necessarily be in the same direction as the Akula.

10-07-05, 12:58 PM	#4
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	One more thing. Don't trust the sonar autocrew. It doesn't really manage its trackers very well, tends to detect things late, and generally clutters up the screen. It's worth it to learn to be proficient with the narrowband sonar, and if you can get missions with just one or two contacts in them its very easy to practice and learn what you're doing before moving on to more complex situations.

10-09-05, 10:05 AM	#7
swimsalot Helmsman Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Seattle, wa usa Posts: 102 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Just a thought :try joining a virtual fleet. I joined one (Seawolves), and had a more senior member spend an hour or so online doing a dive with me. Really helped me get the basics down, it's so much more effective than "just read the manual, dumba**!" And try making a mission with just a neutral or 2, then practice making turns and watching the bearing change. Good Luck, dont get frustrated, it gets better!