Hitpoints of cruisers to weak?

Commander1980 · 08-28-05, 12:13 PM

Does anyone know, which damage-zones the light cruiser use? There are no special hitpoints defined for them in the zones.cfg

I think they are to weak: Two Type 34 DDs managed to sink a Fiji in less than three minutes and both Type34s survived (all three on competent).

Another example: I equipped the Fiji with a special "Heavy Cruiser Loadout" with four of the Hippers 8Inch. It took three of them to sink the Hipper, two were sunk in about four minutes and the last was heavy damaged. Hipper was even on competent, the Fijis veterans.

Hunterbear · 08-29-05, 12:04 AM

Hi commander1980,

Did you look in the data/Sea/...specific ship folder..../ ....specific ship.zon file there? There are armor levels there. Is that what you are looking for? ....ie. data/Sea/NCL_Dido/NCL_Dido.zon

I just wanted to add, that along to fixing that problem, could they somehow be given some of the DDs AI capabilities and not to just cruise on autopilot when they are in a convoy that is under attack.

I attacked a large convoy N of Ireland, heading presumably to Liverpool, that was composed mostly of C2s and C3s, avg. speed 5kts. Sailing in the 3rd or 4th column was a Dido Light Cruiser. I plotted an attack on the C3 on the port side of the cruiser. First torpedo prematurely exploded 400 some meters away from me. No response or evasive maneuvering from the cruiser and no increase in its speed. Second torpedo found its mark and crippled the C3, which later sank due to flooding and to the high seas. I attracted the attention of the convoy screen of destroyers who unsuccessfully tried to find and DC me. The Dido just cruised along at 5kts.

My second attack was on a C2 to the stern of the Dido to try to draw away the destroyers. It succeeded and allowed me to catch up to that lazy cruiser. I had a perfect beam shot on him, but like my first attack the first torpedo prematurely detonated not more than 50m away from the cruiser. Still no evasive maneuvers or increase in speed. I reset the torp depth to run a bit deeper due to the heavy seas and swells. Second torpedo hit the cruiser midships and cut her speed to 2kts.

Thanks to Beerys RUb mod my crew was exhausted from previous recent engagements and it took them forever to reload #4 tube. I had to shadow the crippled cruiser for half an hour while evading the DDs who put up the only fight, tag teaming me.

I would have expected the cruiser to have sped off and not just sit there like a lame duck when ships were sinking around him and a torpedo prematurely went off no more that 50m from them. What use are they to the convoy if they just sit there begging to be sunk for easy tonnage? In the end, I fired the last of 2 torps and sent the Dido to the briny deep. Barely escaped unscathed by the DDs that time since we were now in shallower waters in that bottleneck area between Ireland and England.

I love the great work and variety all the great modders bring to SH3. It just seems all the cruisers in the game are handicapped, at least while sailing in merchant convoys from what I've encountered so far. Do they only have enough AI skill to attack enemy surface shipping and capital ships? Is it just something we have to live with or can they be given enough sense to get out of harms way when the convoy comes under attack. I would expect them to do some kind of offensive/defensive posturing even if they're not specifically there to hunt our uboats.

Just my 2 cents of pet peeves on the cruisers.

Happy hunting to all and keep up the great work modders!

Commander1980 · 08-29-05, 02:07 AM

thanks, i will look there and good idea with that cruiser-AI!

I will give a try with adding some of the escorts search-devices into the *.sns file of the cruisers. The Cruisers have only visual and radar, so far, but have the nodes for other devices

[Sensor 1]
NodeName=O01
LinkName=AI_Visual
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 2]
NodeName=H01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 3]
NodeName=N01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 4]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19400901

[Sensor 5]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type286
StartDate=19400901
EndDate=19420901

[Sensor 6]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type273
StartDate=19420901
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 7]
NodeName=D01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 8]
NodeName=C01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

08-29-05, 03:18 AM

LC's did in fact carry Depth Charges. The LC was to all intents and purposes a Very Heavy DD.

5inch Guns (or bigger depending on type)

Torpedo's (21inch, same number of tubes as most fleet DD's)

KGuns (usually at least 2 perside towards the stern)

and the usually beavy of AA guns.

Armour only slightly better than a fleet DD as well.

This was mainly for its own protection rather that to act soley as a Sub hunter, but they were at times the Flotilla leader in a Hunter Killer Group know as Maruder Groups, so it makes perfect sense.

These are the sort of Task Forces we should see more of than any other but by definition they would be Maruder Groups, not Task Force.

IIRC there were several Maruder groups in action and by their very nature were rather a free roaming unit.

Heavy Cruisers are a different beasty altogether !

Commander1980 · 08-29-05, 04:06 AM

Quote:

adding depth charges (Kguns) and using them is no problem.

It is not that easy. I added KGuns, Asdic and Hydrophones to the Dido, but she didn't attack me. She has to be specified as a ship with escort-duties. But when you do this in the ship's cfg file, the Dido would also be picked for several random groups by the RDN-layer (and no more as cruiser in task forces)....

She was able to spot me with the hydrophones and asdic (*ping ping*) and a destroyer some miles away "received" from her my position (i think) and attacked me. But when still defined as a cruiser, she would never attack me

Pablo · 08-29-05, 08:11 AM

Hi!

AFAIK most of the allied light cruisers in WWII carried torpedoes but not depth charges; the stern area on many of these ships was reserved for carrying scouting aircraft. See the following articles from u-boat.net - none of them are listed as carrying depth charges:

UK light cruiser classes
Arethusa-class here
Belfast-class here
Bellona-class here
Cairo-class here
Caledon-class here
Cavendish-class here
Ceres-class here
D-class here
Dido-class here
E-class here
Fiji-class here
Gloucester-class here
Leander-class here
Minotaur-class here

US light cruiser classes
Brooklyn-class here
Cleveland-class here
Omaha-class here
St. Louis-class here

Pablo

08-29-05, 12:33 PM

Modifications were done to some LC during the course of the war. I remember reading a damn good series of Naval Books about RN & RAN ships, in those books it was made mention a few times about refits an such to cruiser's. 1 such refit to a light cruiser included KGuns.

Sadly I now no longer have the books anymore but I do recall the bits about refits to some ships because at the time I thought "DAMN" to myself

Also there were a lot of unoffical refits and trials of gear that never made it into main stream so as I said, it did happen. How often and to what particular ships I have no idea. I have been looking to find out again but so far no joy

As to USN, couldn't tell u didly and quite frankly dont care much about it either.

Commander1980 · 08-29-05, 05:04 PM

Quote:

adding depth charges (Kguns) and using them is no problem.

It is not that easy. I added KGuns, Asdic and Hydrophones to the Dido, but she didn't attack me. She has to be specified as a ship with escort-duties. But when you do this in the ship's cfg file, the Dido would also be picked for several random groups by the RDN-layer (and no more as cruiser in task forces)....

She was able to spot me with the hydrophones and asdic (*ping ping*) and a destroyer some miles away "received" from her my position (i think) and attacked me. But when still defined as a cruiser, she would never attack me

Rubini · 08-29-05, 05:27 PM

Quote:

She was able to spot me with the hydrophones and asdic (*ping ping*) and a destroyer some miles away "received" from her my position (i think) and attacked me. But when still defined as a cruiser, she would never attack me

Commander1980,

This is far better than the stock one.

Can you post the mods that you make for the light cruiser spot the uboats?

Rubini.

Pablo · 08-29-05, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdr Gibs

Modifications were done to some LC during the course of the war. I remember reading a damn good series of Naval Books about RN & RAN ships, in those books it was made mention a few times about refits an such to cruiser's. 1 such refit to a light cruiser included KGuns.

Hi!

I found information on HMAS Adelaide here. Is this the ship to which you were referring?

Adelaide was initially fitted with two depth charge racks, and with "depth charge throwers" (K-guns) added in 1943. She was a "Town"-class cruiser of the type launched during WWI, not the "Town"-class than the type modeled by Sergbuto's mod (launched in 1936).

This ship apparently never engaged a U-boat, which might account for it not appearing on U-boat.net. It seems to have spent its entire career in the Pacific and Indian Oceans, so I suppose one might run across it if you were in a Monsun U-boat.

Pablo

iambecomelife · 08-29-05, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pablo

Hi!

AFAIK most of the allied light cruisers in WWII carried torpedoes but not depth charges; the stern area on many of these ships was reserved for carrying scouting aircraft. See the following articles from u-boat.net - none of them are listed as carrying depth charges:

UK light cruiser classes
Arethusa-class here
Belfast-class here
Bellona-class here
Cairo-class here
Caledon-class here
Cavendish-class here
Ceres-class here
D-class here
Dido-class here
E-class here
Fiji-class here
Gloucester-class here
Leander-class here
Minotaur-class here

US light cruiser classes
Brooklyn-class here
Cleveland-class here
Omaha-class here
St. Louis-class here

Pablo

I know that the Atlanta Class had them, as well as several British auxiliary cruisers. However, I read that ASW weapons weren't really considered practical for vessels this large, and the Atlantas probably had them removed to make room for more light AA guns.

08-29-05, 08:10 PM

It may very well be Pablo, but I'm not 100% sure since thats a post WW1 cruiser. I know Australia was way behind the 8 ball at the begining of WWII as far as capital ships.

As iambecomelife also made note a few USN ships were also at 1 stage fitted out the same. Whilst it was as i said not main stream - it did happen. As to its effectiveness, well thats a different story altogether.

Commander1980

I also fitted some KGuns to the Dido at the node normaly for the Torpedos, 1 thing I did notice is that the KGuns are still facing inboard (trained aft). This, if the KGuns ever did fire, would cause a very ugly mess indeed. However that will not be the reason they wont fire. I'm 100% sure the reason is this.

On AI ship's the NODES control the ammo TYPES just like thay do on PCO's (Player Controled Objects). Ergo, the T01 Nodes will NOT have DC ammo, ever !
Ok to prove a point take the S01 slots on a sub, IF u change the AA gun on a S01 slot to a 20mm AA gun, u will now have AA plus AP rounds for that 20mm AA gun, were as normaly the 20mm on its A01 slot only gets AP rounds. U do the same with a 105mm DG and place it on the S01 slot u now get 105mm AA & AP rounds only.

It wont matter if u add in the Basic.cfg the extra ammo types to the S01 or the A01 type ammo slots, it will never show up, even with a weapon change.

Conclusion
The T01 slot will only be usable for an object that never needs ammo (read Seach light or same) because untill an MDT (Mod Developers Toolkit) comes out and we can acctually make the damn Torpedo banks work on surface ships they are only ever going to be eye candy. So in fact whilst LC may have very well had DC's at same stage we on the other hand will not be able to do so.

The 1 thing that any game now requires to make it in the big leauges is Community MOD support and MP support beyond a token effort. Sadly this is not the case with SH3. Hell I have done a heap of models I wanted to place into a mod for the SH3 engine but without a MDT from Ubi, I may as well go fly a kite !!

Pablo · 08-29-05, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

I know that the Atlanta Class had them, as well as several British auxiliary cruisers. However, I read that ASW weapons weren't really considered practical for vessels this large, and the Atlantas probably had them removed to make room for more light AA guns.

OK,

I found somewhat authoritative information for Atlanta-class light cruisers (CL-51 through CL-54) here (conduct query for "Atlanta") that indicates two depth charge racks and six depth charge guns. There is no indication they were removed, nor any indications on sonar types or capabilities.

The entry for the follow-on Oakland-class light cruisers (CL-95 through CL-98) doesn't indicate any depth charges, so it may just be for the four ships of the Atlanta class.

Pablo

Commander1980 · 08-30-05, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cdr Gibs

I also fitted some KGuns to the Dido at the node normaly for the Torpedos, 1 thing I did notice is that the KGuns are still facing inboard (trained aft).

I fitted them to the Bofors platform also, because this note facing outboards - but no firing. I think she would fire them, when she is designated as an escort - i will try that later.

Quote:

On AI ship's the NODES control the ammo TYPES just like thay do on PCO's (Player Controled Objects). Ergo, the T01 Nodes will NOT have DC ammo, ever !
Ok to prove a point take the S01 slots on a sub, IF u change the AA gun on a S01 slot to a 20mm AA gun, u will now have AA plus AP rounds for that 20mm AA gun, were as normaly the 20mm on its A01 slot only gets AP rounds. U do the same with a 105mm DG and place it on the S01 slot u now get 105mm AA & AP rounds only.

Different ammo types for the nodes are only defined for the subs. When you place a gun on a W (DCs), T or L (light) node on ships it will fire and it works (targets take damage).

Quote:

It wont matter if u add in the Basic.cfg the extra ammo types to the S01 or the A01 type ammo slots, it will never show up, even with a weapon change.

This is right for the subs, yes. But the ships-files work independant from an "ammo-defining-cfg" - the ammo amount seems to be included in the weapons file. Just disarm a destroyer and place a heavy 15" gun only on the T or L-node - you will take damage from a 15" gun.
I noticed that the subs guns fitted on ships do not work properly - they stop firing after some time - a prove that they have not the same ammo amount as the ships guns.

Quote:

The 1 thing that any game now requires to make it in the big leauges is Community MOD support and MP support beyond a token effort. Sadly this is not the case with SH3. Hell I have done a heap of models I wanted to place into a mod for the SH3 engine but without a MDT from Ubi, I may as well go fly a kite !!

Indeed

Nice with your models - what models have you done?

Hunterbear · 08-30-05, 06:49 PM

Hi Commander1980,

You're making good progress if you could get the cruiser to attack you.

As Rubini asked, what did you add to get her to attack you? Does she show up around the edge of the convoy like the DDs or does she still sail amist the convoy?

Maybe we'll have to clone the cruiser. One made out for escort duties to attack us and one for whatever she does when she can't attack us but fulfill her role for the rest of the game. Dunno?

Promising work, considering what Ubisoft left undone for the rest of the community to figure out and implement, hehe!

Keep us informed on your progress!

08-28-05, 12:13 PM	#1
Commander1980 Engineer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 218 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Hitpoints of cruisers to weak? Does anyone know, which damage-zones the light cruiser use? There are no special hitpoints defined for them in the zones.cfg I think they are to weak: Two Type 34 DDs managed to sink a Fiji in less than three minutes and both Type34s survived (all three on competent). Another example: I equipped the Fiji with a special "Heavy Cruiser Loadout" with four of the Hippers 8Inch. It took three of them to sink the Hipper, two were sunk in about four minutes and the last was heavy damaged. Hipper was even on competent, the Fijis veterans. __________________ New Unit \"Flottenbegleiter\" List of all available equipment and weapons in SH3

08-29-05, 02:07 AM	#3
Commander1980 Engineer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 218 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	thanks, i will look there and good idea with that cruiser-AI! I will give a try with adding some of the escorts search-devices into the *.sns file of the cruisers. The Cruisers have only visual and radar, so far, but have the nodes for other devices [Sensor 1] NodeName=O01 LinkName=AI_Visual StartDate=19380101 EndDate=19451231 [Sensor 2] NodeName=H01 LinkName=NULL StartDate=19380101 EndDate=19451231 [Sensor 3] NodeName=N01 LinkName=NULL StartDate=19380101 EndDate=19451231 [Sensor 4] NodeName=R01 LinkName=NULL StartDate=19380101 EndDate=19400901 [Sensor 5] NodeName=R01 LinkName=Type286 StartDate=19400901 EndDate=19420901 [Sensor 6] NodeName=R01 LinkName=Type273 StartDate=19420901 EndDate=19451231 [Sensor 7] NodeName=D01 LinkName=NULL StartDate=19380101 EndDate=19451231 [Sensor 8] NodeName=C01 LinkName=NULL StartDate=19380101 EndDate=19451231 __________________ New Unit \"Flottenbegleiter\" List of all available equipment and weapons in SH3

08-29-05, 08:11 AM	#6
Pablo Commodore Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 641 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	Hi! AFAIK most of the allied light cruisers in WWII carried torpedoes but not depth charges; the stern area on many of these ships was reserved for carrying scouting aircraft. See the following articles from u-boat.net - none of them are listed as carrying depth charges: UK light cruiser classes Arethusa-class here Belfast-class here Bellona-class here Cairo-class here Caledon-class here Cavendish-class here Ceres-class here D-class here Dido-class here E-class here Fiji-class here Gloucester-class here Leander-class here Minotaur-class here US light cruiser classes Brooklyn-class here Cleveland-class here Omaha-class here St. Louis-class here Pablo

08-29-05, 12:04 AM	#2
Hunterbear A-ganger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: California, USA Posts: 72 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Hi commander1980, Did you look in the data/Sea/...specific ship folder..../ ....specific ship.zon file there? There are armor levels there. Is that what you are looking for? ....ie. data/Sea/NCL_Dido/NCL_Dido.zon I just wanted to add, that along to fixing that problem, could they somehow be given some of the DDs AI capabilities and not to just cruise on autopilot when they are in a convoy that is under attack. I attacked a large convoy N of Ireland, heading presumably to Liverpool, that was composed mostly of C2s and C3s, avg. speed 5kts. Sailing in the 3rd or 4th column was a Dido Light Cruiser. I plotted an attack on the C3 on the port side of the cruiser. First torpedo prematurely exploded 400 some meters away from me. No response or evasive maneuvering from the cruiser and no increase in its speed. Second torpedo found its mark and crippled the C3, which later sank due to flooding and to the high seas. I attracted the attention of the convoy screen of destroyers who unsuccessfully tried to find and DC me. The Dido just cruised along at 5kts. My second attack was on a C2 to the stern of the Dido to try to draw away the destroyers. It succeeded and allowed me to catch up to that lazy cruiser. I had a perfect beam shot on him, but like my first attack the first torpedo prematurely detonated not more than 50m away from the cruiser. Still no evasive maneuvers or increase in speed. I reset the torp depth to run a bit deeper due to the heavy seas and swells. Second torpedo hit the cruiser midships and cut her speed to 2kts. Thanks to Beerys RUb mod my crew was exhausted from previous recent engagements and it took them forever to reload #4 tube. I had to shadow the crippled cruiser for half an hour while evading the DDs who put up the only fight, tag teaming me. I would have expected the cruiser to have sped off and not just sit there like a lame duck when ships were sinking around him and a torpedo prematurely went off no more that 50m from them. What use are they to the convoy if they just sit there begging to be sunk for easy tonnage? In the end, I fired the last of 2 torps and sent the Dido to the briny deep. Barely escaped unscathed by the DDs that time since we were now in shallower waters in that bottleneck area between Ireland and England. I love the great work and variety all the great modders bring to SH3. It just seems all the cruisers in the game are handicapped, at least while sailing in merchant convoys from what I've encountered so far. Do they only have enough AI skill to attack enemy surface shipping and capital ships? Is it just something we have to live with or can they be given enough sense to get out of harms way when the convoy comes under attack. I would expect them to do some kind of offensive/defensive posturing even if they're not specifically there to hunt our uboats. Just my 2 cents of pet peeves on the cruisers. Happy hunting to all and keep up the great work modders!

08-29-05, 03:18 AM	#4
Cdre Gibs Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	LC's did in fact carry Depth Charges. The LC was to all intents and purposes a Very Heavy DD. 5inch Guns (or bigger depending on type) Torpedo's (21inch, same number of tubes as most fleet DD's) KGuns (usually at least 2 perside towards the stern) and the usually beavy of AA guns. Armour only slightly better than a fleet DD as well. This was mainly for its own protection rather that to act soley as a Sub hunter, but they were at times the Flotilla leader in a Hunter Killer Group know as Maruder Groups, so it makes perfect sense. These are the sort of Task Forces we should see more of than any other but by definition they would be Maruder Groups, not Task Force. IIRC there were several Maruder groups in action and by their very nature were rather a free roaming unit. Heavy Cruisers are a different beasty altogether !

08-29-05, 12:33 PM	#7
Cdre Gibs Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Modifications were done to some LC during the course of the war. I remember reading a damn good series of Naval Books about RN & RAN ships, in those books it was made mention a few times about refits an such to cruiser's. 1 such refit to a light cruiser included KGuns. Sadly I now no longer have the books anymore but I do recall the bits about refits to some ships because at the time I thought "DAMN" to myself Also there were a lot of unoffical refits and trials of gear that never made it into main stream so as I said, it did happen. How often and to what particular ships I have no idea. I have been looking to find out again but so far no joy As to USN, couldn't tell u didly and quite frankly dont care much about it either.

08-29-05, 08:10 PM	#12
Cdre Gibs Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	It may very well be Pablo, but I'm not 100% sure since thats a post WW1 cruiser. I know Australia was way behind the 8 ball at the begining of WWII as far as capital ships. As iambecomelife also made note a few USN ships were also at 1 stage fitted out the same. Whilst it was as i said not main stream - it did happen. As to its effectiveness, well thats a different story altogether. Commander1980 I also fitted some KGuns to the Dido at the node normaly for the Torpedos, 1 thing I did notice is that the KGuns are still facing inboard (trained aft). This, if the KGuns ever did fire, would cause a very ugly mess indeed. However that will not be the reason they wont fire. I'm 100% sure the reason is this. On AI ship's the NODES control the ammo TYPES just like thay do on PCO's (Player Controled Objects). Ergo, the T01 Nodes will NOT have DC ammo, ever ! Ok to prove a point take the S01 slots on a sub, IF u change the AA gun on a S01 slot to a 20mm AA gun, u will now have AA plus AP rounds for that 20mm AA gun, were as normaly the 20mm on its A01 slot only gets AP rounds. U do the same with a 105mm DG and place it on the S01 slot u now get 105mm AA & AP rounds only. It wont matter if u add in the Basic.cfg the extra ammo types to the S01 or the A01 type ammo slots, it will never show up, even with a weapon change. Conclusion The T01 slot will only be usable for an object that never needs ammo (read Seach light or same) because untill an MDT (Mod Developers Toolkit) comes out and we can acctually make the damn Torpedo banks work on surface ships they are only ever going to be eye candy. So in fact whilst LC may have very well had DC's at same stage we on the other hand will not be able to do so. The 1 thing that any game now requires to make it in the big leauges is Community MOD support and MP support beyond a token effort. Sadly this is not the case with SH3. Hell I have done a heap of models I wanted to place into a mod for the SH3 engine but without a MDT from Ubi, I may as well go fly a kite !!

08-30-05, 06:49 PM	#15
Hunterbear A-ganger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: California, USA Posts: 72 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Hi Commander1980, You're making good progress if you could get the cruiser to attack you. As Rubini asked, what did you add to get her to attack you? Does she show up around the edge of the convoy like the DDs or does she still sail amist the convoy? Maybe we'll have to clone the cruiser. One made out for escort duties to attack us and one for whatever she does when she can't attack us but fulfill her role for the rest of the game. Dunno? Promising work, considering what Ubisoft left undone for the rest of the community to figure out and implement, hehe! Keep us informed on your progress!