Torpedo spreads?

[MarkShot]

In the WWII sims I have played, there is a gyro offset control on TDC to get a spread, but nothing like that here for SC/DW.

If you input snapshots, but then the relative motion of your target is ignore by fire control when the weapon is launched. This can introduce considerable target drift on a long range shot.

I've started trying a new method for lack of a better term called TMA-fudging. Suppose you want to launch a spread of three fish:

(1) Arrive at the correct TMA solution.
(2) Pause the game.
(3) Reposition the ruler earlier on the track by a sufficient amount and enter solution.
(4) Assign fish #1, adjust presets, and command a launch of fish #1 from the NAV screen.
(5) Put the TMA ruler on the correct solution and enter it.
(6) Assign fish #2, adjust presets, and command a launch of fish #2 from the NAV screen.
(7) Reposition the ruler later on the track by a sufficient amount and enter solution.
(8) Assign fish #3, adjust presets, and command a launch of fish #3 from the NAV screen.
(9) Fix your TMA ruler and enter solution, unpause, and do whatever you normally do.

What I like about this approach is that the spread will calculate in the target and your relative motion unlike snapshots.

Anyone using this approach?

Thanks.

[XabbaRus]

Since modern torpedoes are smart then you don't need to launch spreads anymore.

When you launch it will lead the target so that as long as the target stays on course when the torp gets to it's activation point it will be at the right place to aquire the target.

[MarkShot]

Understood. I am not trying to spread hits along a hull, but rather expand the seeker detection area and reduce the ability to get out of the seeker or spoof with a CM.

[OKO]

one really more easy way to do this :
do the TMA, launch fishes and as soon as they are on the right path, +15° on one, don't touch to the path of the second and -15° on the third
same result, you don't corrupt your TMA, you don't lost time, and you don't need to pause the game.
this is for guided torpedoes

for unguided :
assign the torpedo to the solution, then swith to snapshot =>
the bearing of the snap will be automatically the one already computed for the solution
then +15° and -15°

avoid as possible to corrupt your TMA

[TLAM Strike]

When I want to do a spread of wire guided fish I just let them start running on their course then wire guide them 5 or 10 degrees in the direction I want the spread. The Kilo is the only sub I use non-wire guided fish on and with that boat you can get close enough that I don’t need to spread the fish out.

[MaHuJa]

Originally Posted by OKO

for unguided :
assign the torpedo to the solution, then swith to snapshot =>
the bearing of the snap will be automatically the one already computed for the solution
then +15° and -15°

Remember to sanity-check the bearing value. The second shots from a tube that I've fired in this way (usually placing wakehomers a degree or two to its back) have occasionally went in the direction of the previous target.

[OKO]

yes Mahuja =>
always assign the target JUST before firing
or you could have old values here.
In case of doubt => assig target null, then assign again the target just before shooting
this way you will always have good trajectory

[OKO]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

When I want to do a spread of wire guided fish I just let them start running on their course then wire guide them 5 or 10 degrees in the direction I want the spread. The Kilo is the only sub I use non-wire guided fish on and with that boat you can get close enough that I don’t need to spread the fish out.

this mean, TLAM Strike, the 2 other torpedoes will have at least 1 miles retard compare to the first one.
I personnally perfer the technic I mentionned above => assign target, then change to snap and change value (+15 / -15 or other values) just before I launch the slavo
more efficient salvo, grouped salvo

[OKO]

I have to say anyway i use this technique ONLY with the 53-65K, to be sure my torpedoes will meet the wake of the target, whatever she does.
with guided torpedoes, I just change the course of them after launch only.
for surfaced ship, I use passive torps (when not using 53-65), most of the time, so I don't need to change anything, because passive are way more effective to lock a surface target than active ones.
I just need to open the seeker at the right moment to ensure my torps will choose the right target.

[TopTorp '92]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

In the WWII sims I have played, there is a gyro offset control on TDC to get a spread, but nothing like that here for SC/DW.

If you input snapshots, but then the relative motion of your target is ignore by fire control when the weapon is launched. This can introduce considerable target drift on a long range shot.

I've started trying a new method for lack of a better term called TMA-fudging. Suppose you want to launch a spread of three fish:

(1) Arrive at the correct TMA solution.
(2) Pause the game.
(3) Reposition the ruler earlier on the track by a sufficient amount and enter solution.
(4) Assign fish #1, adjust presets, and command a launch of fish #1 from the NAV screen.
(5) Put the TMA ruler on the correct solution and enter it.
(6) Assign fish #2, adjust presets, and command a launch of fish #2 from the NAV screen.
(7) Reposition the ruler later on the track by a sufficient amount and enter solution.
(8) Assign fish #3, adjust presets, and command a launch of fish #3 from the NAV screen.
(9) Fix your TMA ruler and enter solution, unpause, and do whatever you normally do.

What I like about this approach is that the spread will calculate in the target and your relative motion unlike snapshots.

Anyone using this approach?

Thanks.

The idea behind the spread tactic is to increase the probability of torpedo acquisition in the event the target alerts early to the incoming torpedoes (like within 45 sec) and subsequently decides to evade in the opposite direction.

With the earlier MK-48 (I am talking about the analog torpedo) Fire Control would insert an offset spread of Lead 6 and Lag 14, keeping in mind that the weapon will snake as it searched. However, it was also recognized by the Weapons Community that the spread also provided a partial blind spot between the two torpedoes, meaning even if the target had alerted early to the incoming torpedoes and subsequently decided not to evade in the opposite direction, there was a risk that the two torpedoes would completely miss detection opportunities and the target would have a safe haven out of the line of fire.

When the ADCAP appeared during the 1990s, the spread angle was reduced to Lead & Lag 10 degrees. That is, the first fired torpedo would have a 10 degree course offset leading the target’s course while the second fired unit would have a 10 degree lagging offset. This measure reduced the possibility that the target would have safe haven down the middle of the two torpedoes while keeping a reasonable expectation of target detection in the event of early target alert & evasion.

Since Sub Command does not formally recognize these adjustments, my recommendation is simply to steer the weapon after time of fire. Allow the weapon to drive in the direction of the offset for a few moments and then steer the weapon back to its original course. Do this for both weapons and you will have the same spread as you would have with a gyro offset.

I think the procedure described above is too complex and the desired offset can be easily inserted by steering the weapons after TOF.

Top Torp

[MarkShot]

Yes, I have switched to simply adjusting the bearings after launch ... a much easier and intuitive method.

Now, I have found that a well placed spread of three with a well chosen RTE (in SCXIIC which has better evasion logic than SC) is very effective even without terminal wire guiding.

My question: Is this an exploit? In the WWII subsims I play you are out on a full patrol and mainly commerce raiding. It would be bad form to expend more ordinance than necessary to get the job done unless you have a high-value fast moving target like a cruiser, battleship, or carrier. However, in SC/DW, you only play scenarios as opposed to entire patrols. Additionally, things are usually formulated that a target kill is more critical than the long-term view of economy of ordinance. So, is firing a spread an exploit when a single fish is enough to kill an enemy sub?

(Yes, I do realize that the point is to have fun. And unless you play MP nothing is illegal. But I am still interested in opinions and house rules.)

Thanks.

[Zerogreat]

This reminds me - in the old 688(I) you carried your ordnance through the campaign... i think that was good, because it added the economic factor

Well, maybe bit off topic, but i just had to say it

[timmyg00]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Now, I have found that a well placed spread of three with a well chosen RTE (in SCXIIC which has better evasion logic than SC) is very effective even without terminal wire guiding.

My question: Is this an exploit? ......... However, in SC/DW, you only play scenarios as opposed to entire patrols. Additionally, things are usually formulated that a target kill is more critical than the long-term view of economy of ordinance. So, is firing a spread an exploit when a single fish is enough to kill an enemy sub?

A spread of 3 vs. a sub? No, that's not an exploit; in fact, from what I gather in my conversations with fellow former submariners, a spread of 2 or 3 is accepted doctrine.

Any more than 3, and you're probably exiting the realm of reality and entering the realm of "spray and pray" Now, I have heard arguments from those that I have cussed for using an entire tube-load of ADCAPs or Stallions that "it's my job to make sure the target is sunk, so I do whatever I have to", and this is supposed to justify the profligate use of weapons. However, my reply to that is "If your tactics are sound, you don't need so many weapons - a spread of 2 or 3 should do the trick." The spray-and-pray Quake crowd doesn't want to hear that

TG

[Kapitan]

2 is perfect for sinking most big ships or severly damaging a large ship ie aircraft carrier i dont realy use more than 2 per target and if i can help it i only fire one at a time and i got 14 tubes

if you start firing 4 5 6 or more torpedos at a target then i suggest you take a long hard look at your tactics and methords and seek help

[Wim Libaers]

Also, be very careful with spreads if you have friendlies around. Even if all of them track the right target, as soon as it's destroyed they will stop detecting it (dead platform bug) and look for other stuff to kill nearby. Be ready to pre-enable them if you see they're going after friendlies.