Perry class Frigate vs Tu-22 Backfire...what's the trick?

[Halcyon]

I'm playing the N. Atlantic convoy vanilla mission, and about 20-30 minutes in a Tu-22 Backfire appears from the NE and fires all its missiles at me.
I've tried every strategy I know to avoid the missiles, but no matter what I do my ship always gets hit at least once.

I've tried going completely EMCON and flank speed perpendicular to get out of the missile's seeker path while pumping chaff, but the missiles still find me.

I then tried using my helo's radar to pick up the inbound missiles and using my own SM-2 missiles to shoot them down with the CIWS as backup, but every SM-2 misses and the CIWS misses as well.

I've tried turning away from the missiles to present a smaller target, plus give my CIWS the best chance at hitting them head on while pumping chaff out on both sides of the ship, but at least 1 missile always hits me.

What is the secret to avoiding Backfire missiles?

[Stewy1]

Not sure I can help without giving facetious answers (don't be in range, go with a dedicated AAW platform or two, ride along with a CVBG etc.)

I believe the RA Perry's Standard Missile was made to be less a of 'god-mode' weapon, so I've gotten used to it. I thought the stock SM was better performing?

It does change tactics - one ASM, torpedo or air attack and the Perry's toast. It's annoying too, because even if it's not a fatal shot, the missile launcher will most probably be knocked out in the first hit, and then you just have to wait for the coup de grace...

Without being silly, does using one of the freighters as a shield work? It might absorb a missile or two and you can then shoot down the Backfire?

It's interesting for a discussion about tactics

Stew

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Stewy1

Not sure I can help without giving facetious answers (don't be in range, go with a dedicated AAW platform or two, ride along with a CVBG etc.)

I believe the RA Perry's Standard Missile was made to be less a of 'god-mode' weapon, so I've gotten used to it. I thought the stock SM was better performing?

It does change tactics - one ASM, torpedo or air attack and the Perry's toast. It's annoying too, because even if it's not a fatal shot, the missile launcher will most probably be knocked out in the first hit, and then you just have to wait for the coup de grace...

Without being silly, does using one of the freighters as a shield work? It might absorb a missile or two and you can then shoot down the Backfire?

It's interesting for a discussion about tactics

Stew

The mission is to protect the freighters in the convoy, not use them as shields to survive lol.

There are no other ships in the mission. Just my Perry and 4 cargo ships I have to defend from subs and air threats.
The Backfire fires outside of my 25nm fire control radar range, so I can only wait for the missiles to start showing up on my own air search radar before doing something about it.

[Alcon2009]

What Kind of missiles does that Tu-22 use?
They may be too buffed (i guess) ??

Edit: Somehow i avoided the missiles, but a torpedo from a Kilo killed me, sorry im so noob at FFG

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Alcon2009

What Kind of missiles does that Tu-22 use?
They may be too buffed (i guess) ??

Edit: Somehow i avoided the missiles, but a torpedo from a Kilo killed me, sorry im so noob at FFG

AS-4 Kitchen ASW

[Alcon2009]

I don't know what you should try for avoiding it, but all i did was go to south when i received the message, once i detected the target i shooted a SM-2, then chaff countermeasures and auto ciws, did avoid it.

[Kapitan]

I will play this one later and see what I can find but from memory having played the Perry substantially id advise trying the following:

1: Run broadside to the threat this will enable the SM2 to engage but also the CIWS also gives you chaff and flare, and maintains you weapons arcs

2: Make sure your CIWS is on to automatic mode not fully as you dont want to take down your own missiles

3: You need both air and surface search radars on otherwise the SM2 just goes anywhere

4: at this moment in time you should stay in the weapons control system

5: Judicious use of clicking the SM2 reload until it flashes its loading

6: for every time you reload unassign and re assign the contact using the buttons

7: fire 1 for 1 and start with the closest missile to you then take the platform firing

8: weapons quick launch will help but if your playing without it the SM2 can take around 30 seconds to load each missile

Unfortunately if your playing stock 1.04 the chaff and flare feature don't give you anything, neither does running at flank speed and turning (your basically destroying your weapons arcs)

The last time I played 1.04 and the Perry would have been around 2010 I currently use the RA mod

This guide may assist you as well it was Written by Oneshot I uploaded it some time ago its dated now for anything past 1.04

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom//do...o=file&id=1255


ASW operations in the Perry

I stress this point have the nixie streamed !

Speed is not an advantage in this theatre, in fact going above 5 knots and your basically giving them yourself on a plate, you need both helos in the air during ASW operations.

Depending on the area will depend on the patter you use I tend to split my helos one working in front one behind in open water, and if in confined waters I use them both ahead and working from the furthest point towards each other to form a barrier.

I use a datum prosecution pattern in open water this happens up to 10nm from the ship on the fist drop imagine a circle 10nm in diameter and at the 12 3 6 and 9 positions i place vlad type buoys (passive) and in the center dicass (active buoys) no buoy should be more than 5nm from the center (you can measure using the alt enter and then push enter to mark the nav map.

I will lay several of these patterns spread apart behind and in front of the ship and if needed to each side while maintaining 4/5 knots, do not stray into your own sensor field is completely screws up the sensors and gives the opposition advantage.

in Barrier formation each buoy is like a string 5nm apart and a vlad then dicass vlad dicass pattern, alternatively you can stagger the line so its off set to cover a bigger barrier area.

Tomorrow I will get something going and post some screen shots so you can follow but note I will be using RA mod, the tactics are the same just a different platform most likely. (I mainly only use the Udaloy now)

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

I will play this one later and see what I can find but from memory having played the Perry substantially id advise trying the following:

1: Run broadside to the threat this will enable the SM2 to engage but also the CIWS also gives you chaff and flare, and maintains you weapons arcs

2: Make sure your CIWS is on to automatic mode not fully as you dont want to take down your own missiles

3: You need both air and surface search radars on otherwise the SM2 just goes anywhere

4: at this moment in time you should stay in the weapons control system

5: Judicious use of clicking the SM2 reload until it flashes its loading

6: for every time you reload unassign and re assign the contact using the buttons

7: fire 1 for 1 and start with the closest missile to you then take the platform firing

8: weapons quick launch will help but if your playing without it the SM2 can take around 30 seconds to load each missile

Unfortunately if your playing stock 1.04 the chaff and flare feature don't give you anything, neither does running at flank speed and turning (your basically destroying your weapons arcs)

The last time I played 1.04 and the Perry would have been around 2010 I currently use the RA mod

This guide may assist you as well it was Written by Oneshot I uploaded it some time ago its dated now for anything past 1.04

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom//do...o=file&id=1255


ASW operations in the Perry

I stress this point have the nixie streamed !

Speed is not an advantage in this theatre, in fact going above 5 knots and your basically giving them yourself on a plate, you need both helos in the air during ASW operations.

Depending on the area will depend on the patter you use I tend to split my helos one working in front one behind in open water, and if in confined waters I use them both ahead and working from the furthest point towards each other to form a barrier.

I use a datum prosecution pattern in open water this happens up to 10nm from the ship on the fist drop imagine a circle 10nm in diameter and at the 12 3 6 and 9 positions i place vlad type buoys (passive) and in the center dicass (active buoys) no buoy should be more than 5nm from the center (you can measure using the alt enter and then push enter to mark the nav map.

I will lay several of these patterns spread apart behind and in front of the ship and if needed to each side while maintaining 4/5 knots, do not stray into your own sensor field is completely screws up the sensors and gives the opposition advantage.

in Barrier formation each buoy is like a string 5nm apart and a vlad then dicass vlad dicass pattern, alternatively you can stagger the line so its off set to cover a bigger barrier area.

Tomorrow I will get something going and post some screen shots so you can follow but note I will be using RA mod, the tactics are the same just a different platform most likely. (I mainly only use the Udaloy now)

Thanks for the reply.
I've already read that FFG guide for the Perry, and I'm pretty solid on ASW ops. It's just the Backfire missiles that I can never avoid.

[Stewy1]

I stress this point have the nixie streamed !

Honest question here, isn't the Nixie essentially a noise maker? Wouldn't you want that reeled in, until you get a TIW, so you don't give yourself away?

(Mind you, if you get a wake-homer, it's a lost fight anyway isn't it?)

I tend to split my helos one working in front one behind in open water

I guess this is more of a tactical question and depends on the situation - but is it then limiting if you have to recover (and then refuel) two helos at once?

I did work out a rough 'flight schedule' spreadsheet once, so there's a helo in the air at all times, I'd need to test it more though to see if it works.

Honest questions here, Kapitan - I really don't mean to be rude or provocative - just keen to keep the discussion going!
Stew

[Kapitan]

Honest question here, isn't the Nixie essentially a noise maker? Wouldn't you want that reeled in, until you get a TIW, so you don't give yourself away?

(Mind you, if you get a wake-homer, it's a lost fight anyway isn't it?)

The nixie is a noise maker and does attract the wake homers but DW being what it is you cant detect it on the sonars and is HF.

The 23s I have been on in similar exercises deploy something similar the main reason is a below the layer shot where its harder to get the TIW (just not in DW)

Nixie takes time to deploy and a torpedo fired at 6,000 yards is likely going to get you before the nixie deploys fully, so id rather deploy it and not need it than need it and not have it deployed.

I guess this is more of a tactical question and depends on the situation - but is it then limiting if you have to recover (and then refuel) two helos at once?

I did work out a rough 'flight schedule' spreadsheet once, so there's a helo in the air at all times, I'd need to test it more though to see if it works.

Honest questions here, Kapitan - I really don't mean to be rude or provocative - just keen to keep the discussion going!
Stew

Good Grief lol ask away I'm not offended and don't think your being rude or anything in fact I would prefer if you or others did ask as it not only builds collective knowledge but also the person gets the chance to explain their reasoning etc so please do ask away.

So I should have been a bit clearer when I wrote my comment I was basing the answer on this specific mission or what I can remember of it anyway.

Yes your correct in that it would limit air time and give you a little head ache with recovery if you launch both together, that said most DW missions from memory don't last any longer than a couple of hours at most and the majority of missions will have you in action in around 30 minuets.
Also looking at the stock missions unfriendly platforms usually are in fairly close range to enable action pretty swiftly.

So with a roughly 2 hour game play window and enemy assets being close then I need all available assets to work and deploy very quickly and create a large sensor area in different parts of the map, and one helicopter is not going to be able to achieve that before I start getting shot at.

Most missions are also over before you need to recover the aircraft as well, off hand I can only think of a few multiplayer games I have been in that have lasted longer than 2 hours, as for single player missions I don't recall any that go beyond this either.

The mission being spoken about here I think from memory the entire game play would be around 1 hour roughly so its not a long duration mission like what I normally do (and would cycle helos).

In the real world on a medium security setting yes absolutely you would fly one at a time and cycle each helo in order to keep one in the air at all times.
On a heightened security setting in the real world and having intel that something is close by you would fly both off to enable a much larger area to be searched faster.

Basically I tailor my tactics based on each mission that I play and there are a lot of variations (too many to list), but ultimately in a short duration mission I will deploy every asset I can to gain advantage quickly.

I would be interested to see that spread sheet, and id also like to ask if you ever made one for the Udaloy too.
I haven't played the FFG for a while in fact many years As I like the Udaloy and find that more challenging to command than the Perry.

Also on a side note I absolutely love your map packs I came across them by accident but they are fantastic and very detailed and will be using them from now on to make my own missions.

[Kapitan]

Just finished playing the mission and this is what I found, with settings and details I also kept a scrap log of events during the mission be advised I am a little rusty with the Perry as well.

I am playing Dangerous Waters with the RA DWX Mod 1.51 with current fixes

The Perry is armed with the SM1 which I took 40 with me during the mission, I also set all soft kill dispensers to chaff not flare.

I do play with auto crew on reason behind this is to avoid information overload, in the real world you wouldn't be doing everything and you physically cannot keep bouncing between stations and thus catch everything.
As the Captain you would be heavily reliant on other persons input in order to fight the ship and my main focus is on navigation and weapons control, I do go and oversee the other stations periodically throughout the mission as well particularly the bow sonar.

I also have show dead platform on in this scenario to show the kills.

Game time starts 0400 and ends 0536 total game time 1 hour 36 minuets.

DECK LOG

0400 I start in game and immediately set green deck launch the helo's, I set one to launch the other to alert 30, I also stream the nixie and set my bow sonar to passive CIWS is set to auto, both air search and surface search radars are on

My reason for doing this is that there is no point in trying to hide a submarine can hear the convoy many miles away anyway as the merchants are loud, the submarine can also use link data to transmit the convoy location to other assets so running EMCOM in my opinion is not required here and has no benefit to you.

0402 to 0404 Set up map markers on nav map for buoy deployment, 1 in the north 1 in the south and a barrier forward by the line.


0406 Receive intel that there is a submarine threat to the north est 8,000yards (5.5nm), Helo 1 is deployed to that area to lay a datum prosecution pattern

0407 launch helo 2 to cover the south sector.




The reason I have done this is because I wanted to create a west to east lane with both sides of the convoy covered as well as the front, the tactic works by creating a passage of clear water which the convoy can sail through and ensures both sides are guarded with a helo in both sectors ready if anything is found in either sector and also forward or astern of the convoy.

0408 Convoy turns to 180 I also follow turning at 15 knots until I reach 180 then slow to 5 knots.

My reason for doing this is to protect the convoy, intel reports a submarine to the north its prudent to turn away, also my nixie is deployed any torpedo will likely run into this.
By slowing to 5 knots I assume the quiet state it gives my sensors increased capability to detect a TIW or a submarine, it is also harder for the submarine to detect me, it also allows me to lag behind the convoy to be in a position to sweep the stern and put me between the convoy and the submarine.

0407 my air search radar picks up two inbound air contacts not yet classified, the turn is very timely as it turns out as now the weapons arc of the CIWS is almost in full range.
NOTE: here I have made a big mistake, I did not load up a SM1 at the start of the game! Ultimately this could have cost me.


0410 turn completed I slow to 5 knots, the air search has detected 3 missiles in bound I get vampire warnings so I fire off a SM1 for each missile incoming, then recycle for another 2 shots.
The result is I down 2 missiles with the SM1 and CIWS takes out the final missile.

Reload rate is 1 x SM1 missile every 10/12 seconds roughly and I'm not using quick launch, each incoming missile on the track I de-assign and then re assign.
I do notice one other thing doing this and that is sometimes the missile lock is broken hence why I use 5 missiles to take out just 2 missiles.
The reason I do this is to ensure it is a confirmed track and not a spoof or duplicate

0413 Pick up new active track in the northern sector

0416 Turn to 270 and run to flank for a sprint and drift

The reason I am doing this is to position myself behind the convoy as fast as I can, it will put myself between a potential submarine contact and the convoy.
I now also know that there is an aircraft to the north east and this move still gives my CIWS a decent engagement arc.
Thus there is no real negative in doing this, to figure out the aircraft location I use a line of bearing assumption for the aircrafts position as I have not yet detected it only the missiles.

0424 Return to 8 knots still on 270, several buoys are hot in both sectors and patterns are completed. I have detected 2 submarines not one ! (I only actually thought there was 1 in the mission)
I instruct both helos to drop Dicass deep buoys near the area of the potential submarines to confirm the contact (buoys 14 and 15).

The reason I have done this is because I want to confirm the exact location of the submarine using active sonar in order not to waste weapons as the helo only carries 3 torpedo's

0428 Detect missiles inbound via air search radar I also for the first time detect an aircraft behind them.

0429 Vampire warning three missiles incoming, I fire off at each missile then like before cycle again I fire a total of 5 missiles, My CIWS does not engage I take down all 3 missiles with the SM1.

0430 The aircraft is in range of the SM1 and to make sure I fire off 3 SM1 missiles at it.

The reason I have done this is because I hadn't classified the type of aircraft at this point and I wasn't too sure if they would use chaff / flare or other decoy methods, yes its a bit over kill but I also don't know if it has any more weapons, it is also very close to the convoy and now my helos.

0433 I am informed by the trigger that kill goal is completed and TU22 is shot down and at the same time both submarine contacts are confirmed.


0434 South helo is instructed to drop torpedo on contact, for this I use the helo screen and manually drop the torpedo using the way point.

The reason I do this is to ensure only 1 torpedo is dropped, this is incase I require another at a later stage.

0435 Kill goal confirmed Kilo class submarine Rostov on Don is sunk, Convoy now returns to base course 090 at 15 knots


0436 I also order a turn to 090 but do not increase to 15 knots I maintain 8 knots.

The reason I have done this is to again place my ship between the threat submarine and convoy also 8 knots is not that loud although it is above the quiet state for the Perry (Quiet state being 0-5knots) it also allows the convoy to get ahead of me and I can then again sweep the stern.

0438 Helo 2 in the south is re tasked to lay a barrier pattern forward on the line

The reason I have done this is to ensure there is nothing the convoy will run into, I expected only to deal with 1 submarine in the mission but got surprised there was 2 (I also didn't read the brief at the start btw) so I anticipated there maybe a third submarine out there.

0441 Helo 1 in the north drops torpedo and does not acquire.

0442 Helo 1 drops another torpedo in advance of the contact again does not acquire.

0443 Helo 1 Drops final torpedo and yet again does not acquire, helo 1 is recovered.

0444 Helo 2 having laid 2 of the 3 Dicass barrier buoys is re tasked to execute the submarine contact in the north.

The reason I have done this is because a great portion of the line ahead is covered anyways (a 20nm area) and the buoys are active, Helo 2 still has 2 torpedo's and I have a definitive submarine contact, I would rather execute a known contact than look for a possible phantom contact and leave the confirmed contact sitting there with the ability to shoot at me or the convoy.

0448 Updated contact confirming the submarine location this has used 3 buoys 1,3 and 15

0450 Helo 2 drops torpedo and immediately acquires increase speed to 15 knots course 090



0451 Kill confirmed 2nd Kilo Krasnodar informed by the mission voice over that mission is completed, note the convoy has not crossed the line yet therefore I stay in game to ensure they do.

The reason I have done this is to ensure the convoy does cross the line but also critically the mission requires them to cross the line to complete, Also with the surprise of the 2nd kilo being in mission I didn't want to end without making sure there wasn't anything else coming at me.

0501 EW detection this had me as I thought this was another air attack, after interrogating the EW and radar the aircraft was classified as a commercial A300

0501-0529 Multiple EW contacts all were civilian aircraft at altitude

0533 Convoy crossed the line

0536 Mission was ended


Conclusion

To be honest I am a little rusty I did make a few mistakes during the mission, however all tasking was completed I took down a TU22 and 2 Kilos and the convoy crossed the line intact with no loss.

This was a pretty high paced high threat mission encompassing multiple threat assets but it is achievable, I found that it was a maneuver situation and that at the start your not actually in the best position travelling due east 090.

A note for Stewy: Earlier in the comments I mentioned that there is usually a 2 hour game play window, with threat assets close in and that you would require both helos in the air at the same time.
This mission perfectly displays that, as for the submarines being within a radius of 8,000 yards from the convoy I honestly expected much more from them.

As I do also play the submarine and from that perspective had I been in command of one of them Kilos I would have been worried at my starting position as I feel it was too close to the convoy.

Knowing that my targets are mainly merchant ships I could have easily picked them up at a much greater range and fired off missiles rather than get in close with torpedoes.

Driving the SSK it gives you limited scope for maneuvering as your constantly worried about the battery with speed over range.
I would have likely engaged with Missiles from 10 to 15nm out and if playing with another human controller in another submarine I would have coordinated a joint missile strike.

The reason for this would be to overload the Perry and have a maximum of 12 missiles incoming from two directions at the same time which would have made it very hard for the Perry to counter, the TU22 would have helped also by shooting off its missiles so in theory the Perry would have had to deal with 12+ incoming missiles from 3 positions.

In the real world this would have been (Still is) a classic Soviet / Russian tactic to use multiple assets in different locations far out to overwhelm the convoy defenses while being at a distance in order to evade and relocate.

Final Note

I hope this has helped anyone wanting to play this mission, and I hope you can follow this and what I have done and critically the reasons behind the decisions I made whilst in game.

[Halcyon]

That was an epic reply. Thank you!
I'll have a deeper look at it and compare to what I was doing.

[Stewy1]

The nixie is a noise maker and does attract the wake homers but DW being what it is you cant detect it on the sonars and is HF.

Holy Cow! Never knew that!

I would be interested to see that spread sheet

Sure! it's a bit clunky at the the moment - will see of I can make it a bit more functional.

love your map packs

Thanks mate - glad you liked them!

Your mission debriefs are awesome! Question for you - how do you bag a submarine without getting shot down? Do you have to let the buoys do the work and then come in for a 'quick pass' on the contact to fire a torp?

[Kapitan]

Originally Posted by Stewy1

Question for you - how do you bag a submarine without getting shot down? Do you have to let the buoys do the work and then come in for a 'quick pass' on the contact to fire a torp?

With ASW operations you really do want to keep the ship well away from the submarine, charging in with the ship will destroy the field and could potentially give the advantage to the enemy.

Stand off and let the helicopters and buoys do all the work, if your in range to fire the Perry's torpedo's at the target chances are any decent player or AI will already have fired on you.

I always try to get a 3 buoy fix on submarines especially because the accuracy can be off quite a lot and that's why I drop the confirming buoy.
You cant always do that but it does help a lot if you can use 3 or more to triangulate.

I use the helo's in manual drop mode to stop them dropping all the ordinance at once.

99% of submarine drivers will not engage a helicopter, to do so requires surfacing and as soon as you surface you expose yourself to the potentially deadly missiles from a helicopter, or gun fire and missiles from the ship.
You can fire a SM2 at a surfaced submarine and it will do a lot of damage gun fire will likely be rapid and also devastating so for that reason they stay down. (I don't think I have ever used the SAM in game from a submarine to attack an air asset)

The game also in terms of submerging a submarine isn't that realistic, to give you some idea to submerge a Trafalgar class SSN in real life it can take about 8-10 minuets, (they also dip the stern down first not the bow)