When should i start worrying about enemy planes?

[Huno41]

I'm a noob and almost into 1941 but at what date should I start being careful with aircraft?

[Fifi]

In real, planes were dangerous from war start as they inflicted severe damages to few u boats even in 1940. But i think they became to start real nightmare by 1942.
In SH3, all depending what mod you are playing...the worst about planes threat being Ccom12 by far (and probably the most accurate)

[bstanko6]

The second you see them.

[John Pancoast]

Any plane at any time is to be avoided but historically, things ramp up in 1943. All the mega mods and the stock version of the game simulate this too.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Huno41

I'm a noob and almost into 1941 but at what date should I start being careful with aircraft?

THe trick here is not to see it as a Uboat problem but as a development of modern warfare overall. Your U-boat Kaleun's periscope view is causing tunnel-vision issues of the immensity of the problem. In battle, a platform is a platform is a platform... and a B-24 Liberator with 10 centimeter radar and four depth charges set shallow or even an outdated Swordfish torpedo plane(crippled Bismark) is a better platform. Throw in escort carrier killer groups and its game over for an essentially submersible PT-boat posing as a submarine REQUIRED READING:https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Por...es/ridolfi.pdf

Meanwhile in the Atlantic, German Luftwaffe crews sank 179 Allied ships during a three month period in early 1941.4 Italian air attacks sank 63 Royal Navy ships in the Mediterranean. Landbased airpower also accounted for 132 of the 140 U-boats destroyed by air attack in the last year of the war—over 94%.5

Even the four U-Flak boats designed to combat air attack failed miserably; only served a semester June- November, and were reconverted back to normal VII boats by December of '43. Best advice: always be at decks awash always for quick crash dives and do not even mess with aircraft of any sort on the surface...Good hunting!

[FUBAR295]

QUOTE=Aktungbby;2713668] Best advice: always be at decks awash always for quick crash dives and do not even mess with aircraft of any sort on the surface...Good hunting![/QUOTE]


I second this advise. You'll survive much longer.

Good Hunting,
FUBAR295

[FeatsOfStrength]

Originally Posted by bstanko6

The second you see them.

I only engage aircraft if they are Swordfish, anything other than a swordfish I crash dive and hope the bombs don't hit me.

One time on a Type IIA patrol in 1939 I decided to go through the gap between Scapa Flow and the Shetlands, I was attacked by 12 swordfish and managed to shoot down everyone of them before running out of ammo, didn't take a single hit from them. Makes me wonder how the Bismark had such a tough go of it.

The only times I get messed up by planes are when the lookouts fail to spot them (usually in time compression)

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by FeatsOfStrength

I only engage aircraft if they are Swordfish, anything other than a swordfish I crash dive and hope the bombs don't hit me.

One time on a Type IIA patrol in 1939 I decided to go through the gap between Scapa Flow and the Shetlands, I was attacked by 12 swordfish and managed to shoot down everyone of them before running out of ammo, didn't take a single hit from them. Makes me wonder how the Bismark had such a tough go of it.

The only times I get messed up by planes are when the lookouts fail to spot them (usually in time compression)

My case entirely. The Swordfish, en masse, against the Bismark was the better platform. Its sistership, Tirpitz, spent most of its career hiding in Norwegian fjord awaiting its doom from an even better platform: a Lancaster bomber with a tallboy bomb! I always managed to shoot down Sunderlands and Swordfishes in SHII, but could do nothing against any of the other bombers. In SH V the situation is untenable; I've only ever shot down one aircraft with considerable damage to myself in the process effectively ending the mission. What is important to remember is that in real life, WWII damage to a Uboat was often as good as an outright kill, often necessitating an immediate return to port bunkers and the overcrowded repair facilities. Thus, against airpower, Doenitz's concept of a tonnage war to win a global strategic conflict was fatally flawed from the getgo. It hadn't worked in WWI and it didn't again in WWII. Twixt the Canadian, Royal Navy, and 'Merican anti-Uboat navies, the Atlantic ain't called "an English speakin' lake" fer nuthin'! An Allied enigma inside a Nazi conundrum if ever!"

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by FUBAR295

QUOTE=Aktungbby;2713668] Best advice: always be at decks awash always for quick crash dives and do not even mess with aircraft of any sort on the surface...Good hunting!

I second this advise. You'll survive much longer.

Good Hunting,
FUBAR295[/QUOTE]

Not sure how historical always being decks awash is fwiw. Iirc decks awash was actually only done via e-motors ? If so, running awash always would drain them.
If not, then a waste of fuel via the added drag. The tactic was used only at very slow speeds during an attack scenario I believe vs. all the time/high speed.

[Fifi]

I believe they never navigate Long distances deck a washed.
It might be just impossible...
Never read any sort of thing. Only for approaching convoys.

[FUBAR295]

I use decks awash when the sea is smooth or calm and only during daylight hours and only early war up to early 1942. After that not so much.

Interestingly, I found no mention of decks wash in the Uboat Commanders Handbook, so not sure how often it was used in real life.

Good hunting,
FUBAR295

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

I second this advise. You'll survive much longer.
Good Hunting,
FUBAR295
Not sure how historical always being decks awash is fwiw. Iirc decks awash was actually only done via e-motors ? If so, running awash always would drain them.
If not, then a waste of fuel via the added drag. The tactic was used only at very slow speeds during an attack scenario I believe vs. all the time/high speed.

Originally Posted by Fifi

I believe they never navigate Long distances deck a washed.
It might be just impossible...
Never read any sort of thing. Only for approaching convoys.

Probably so; I used Decks awash to mean 1 meter high to still use the UZO and run on diesels In SH V. The sole object is to hasten the divetime in Scapa type scenarios. U-108, commanded by Knights Cross recipient Klaus Scholz, occasionally ran at decks awash: Some interesting reading from 2009 for SH IV:

 

DECKS AWASH (DA), as used here, means to operate at the deepest depth that the diesels will run continuously . The advantage in doing this is that, when compared to being fully surfaced, much less time is needed to disappear below the waves. If a threat appears, go to DA early and avoid being pounded (or sunk) as you wait, and wait, and wait, to submerge.

Running DA is mainly useful to avoid air threats. If battery recharging is critical and aircraft might be near you can safely recharge until the aircraft are spotted before quickly diving. Or, if you have radar, you can surface to DA and check for enemy aircraft before coming completely up with the comfort that if aircraft are present, they can still be avoided with a quick dive. With practice you will find other times DA is a lifesaver (rescuing downed airmen with enemy guns nearby, etc).

Two important points must be remembered, to use DA successfully. First, the critical depth for running at DA is often different between classes of submarine. Second, the critical depth for the diesels is usually deeper than that for CO2/O2 exchange and using the deck gun. This means CO2 can build up inside the sub. So there is a second DA to remember, DA(CO2). It, too, varies between sub classes but as a rule, it's 2-3 feet less than DA (diesel). DA(CO2) is always the same as the critical depth for using the deck gun, or DA(Gun), so the two can be combined.

Below is a guideline which lists the critical depths for DA(diesel) and DA(CO2/Gun) for the different classes of sub in SH4. [Measurements were made at flank speed, in calm seas, with 100% battery charge.]

DECKS AWASH DEPTH IN FEET FOR SUB TYPES

TYPE BOAT.........DA(diesel)........DA(CO2/GUN)
GATO.....................28...................26
BALAO....................28...................26
GAR.......................32...................26
PORPOISE...............28...................23
SALMON.................31...................26
NARWHAL...............30...................28
TAMBOR.................33...................25
SARGO...................31...................28
S-42......................26...................26
S-18......................26...................26

As a rule, 28 feet is a good rough guide for DA(diesel) (unless you're in an "S" boat or "TAMBOR", where it's 25 to 26). "SALMON", and "NARWHAL" classes can run slightly deeper (about 30). "GAR" and "TAMBOR" can do 32 feet.

For DA(CO2/Gun), 26 feet is a good guide for getting rid of CO2 for all boats except the "PORPOISE" class, where you must be at 23 feet, and the "NARWHAL", "TAMBOR", and "SARGO" classes, where it's 28.

The time needed to reach periscope depth is affected by 1) the depth at which the "dive" order is given, 2) the dive depth ordered ("periscope depth" vs "CRASH DIVE!"). "CRASH DIVE!" is always faster. But to avoid suicide, remember that ordering "CRASH DIVE!" takes you to 160 feet. Without that much water under you, you will die, unless you can successfully change the order (after submerging) before hitting bottom. Use "CRASH DIVE!" with caution.

Below are dive times (in seconds) between classes of boats for the order "periscope depth", fully surfaced and at DA(diesel). Times to reach periscope depth on ordering "CRASH DIVE!" will be faster. [Times were obtained at flank speed, in calm seas, with 100% battery charge.]

TIME TO REACH PERISCOPE DEPTH

TYPE BOAT......SURFACED............DA(diesel)
GATO..................120....................32
BALAO..................80.....................29
GAR....................120.....................23
PORPOISE.............85.....................24
SALMON..............107.....................26
NARWHAL............125.....................24
TAMBOR...............123....................26
SARGO.................123....................24
S-42....................72.....................47
S-18....................72.....................47

The difference between dive times is dramatic, and clearly shows the advantage of running at decks awash when a fast dive is important. It should be remembered that the DA strategy for recharging doesn't work in rough seas, where the electric engines will cut on and off, discharging the batteries.

Also remember that you get poor fuel efficiency (fewer MPG) and lower speed when running at Decks Awash since you are, after all, partly submerged.

(Incidentally, "CRASH DIVE!" from DA(diesel) will reach periscope depth for all boat classes in 17 seconds, except the "TAMBOR" class which makes it in just 15. Now that's a fast dive!)

Practical Tips:
To get to a specific depth, use the shallow depth meter (the one with the red needle at periscope depth), put the point of the cursor over the where tick mark should be for the desired depth, and left click the mouse. The "new depth" order will appear in the notification window at top of screen. (A voice will state the "new depth" order too, but often it isn't the same depth as you see printed in the window. ALWAYS go by what's in the window.) You may find the "new depth" you see ordered is not the one you thought you clicked on. If so, just do it again, this time pointing the cursor a tiny bit deeper/shallower on the depth meter from before, and notice the result. Keep doing this in tiny changes until you get the feel of it. Once you do, you should be able to "dial in" 26 feet and get it, or at least within a foot either way.

Again, to successfully run at Decks Awash you must have a sea-state that allows you to maintain constant depth, since you're running the diesels at (or near) the lowest depth they can get air. Boat speed also affects depth control. Faster is steadier.

Overall, it's probably safer to not push the limit, depth-wise, in using DA as a strategy. Give yourself a margin of error. Dive times should not be much affected.

Use the numbers as a guide and remember, they are based on the depth you see ordered as "new depth" in the notification window (top of screen). The depth seen at the bottom right of the controls (next to the "+" of Time Compression) is usually NOT what you dialed in, neither is the audio "new depth".

Versions:
This study was made using Silent Hunter4 (1.4). The later SH4 (1.5) data may, or not be different, but the concept is the same. Modding to Trigger Maru Overhaul (TMO) does not change the depths for DA, but dive time measurements from full surface ARE faster in TMO. But in all cases, starting from DA gives you a much quicker dive.

https://www.uboat.net/allies/documents/usaaf_asw3.htm

Perhaps the most important task of the 1st SeaSearch Attack Group was to develop techniques for using Airborne Surface Vessel Detection (ASV) radar to find surfaced submarines. The radar that eventually went into production was 10centimeter wave equipment, known as ASV10. The British had developed a long wave ASV radar and used it to find submarines in 19411942. As early as March 1942, the I Bomber Command had four B-18's outfitted with the long wave radar sets, but the Germans outfitted their submarines with a long wave radar detector that effectively countered the British radar. The United States quickly developed the microwave radar, which the Germans never effectively countered. The first microwave sets were hand manufactured and delivered to the 1st SeaSearch Attack Group in June 1942. By February 1943, a skilled radar operator could identify surfaced submarines at more than 40 miles (64 km) and even the conning tower of a boat running decks awash at 15 to 30 miles (24 to 48 km).

I rest my case: if Uboat.net is even discussing decks awash...then somebody musta did decks awash!!!

Originally Posted by ME

platform is a platform... and a B-24 Liberator with 10 centimeter radar and four depth charges set shallow or even an outdated Swordfish torpedo plane(crippled Bismark) is a better platform.

Bad Guy #1- my late uncle (just died 3 months ago; age 95) flew these bad boys!

[FUBAR295]

Aktungbby,

Thanks for the interesting read.

Adding this to other interesting documentations.

Good hunting,
FUBAR295

[Aktungbby]

you're very welcome! The reference in Uboat.net and (a picture's worth a 1000 words) photo of a competant commander's Uboat at decks awash pretty well resolves my concern if the maneuver existed. In researching the issue: In modern times, even a '50's U.S. sub used the ploy to get under a draw-bridge that had no operator on duty...with a just foot of clearance!

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

you're very welcome! The reference in Uboat.net and (a picture's worth a 1000 words) photo of a competant commander's Uboat at decks awash pretty well resolves my concern if the maneuver existed. In researching the issue: In modern times, even a '50's U.S. sub used the ploy to get under a draw-bridge that had no operator on duty...with a just foot of clearance!

Well, I was never questioning if the maneuver existed and the u-boat net quoted only says it was used not how, which again I never doubted (that it was used).
I was (and still do) questioning it being used all the time on a patrol irl as suggested to do in the game.
Of course one can play the game anyway desired. Though as ineffectual as aircraft are and as effectual as the rwrs are, why bother ?

p.s. cold one today, eh ?