Swim-out torpedos?

XenonSurf · 10-03-18, 02:57 PM

Hi,
I wonder how the game handles swim-out torpedos if they are implemented. I know this is true for some mods, but since version 1.09 the enemy will snap-shot relentlessly, so I guess swim-outs are not simulated.
Then, question is which subs did already have this technology, I don't know for Los Angeles class subs.

And was this technology so silent afterall, and if yes were there some tactical flaws / disadvantages in using them?

Thanks,

Mspot · 10-03-18, 03:48 PM

In terms of in-game use: it works but, in my opinion, experience, very limited advantage. As for the rest, need input from a submariner.

Julhelm · 10-03-18, 04:07 PM

Only Mark 37 is swimout-capable, because it's a 400mm weapon.

XenonSurf · 10-03-18, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mspot

In terms of in-game use: it works but, in my opinion, experience, very limited advantage. As for the rest, need input from a submariner.

Thanks, indeed I figure out that the advantage will at best delay a snapshot for little time because at some point a running torpedo will be located by enemy.

XenonSurf · 10-03-18, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julhelm

Only Mark 37 is swimout-capable, because it's a 400mm weapon.

Thanks Julhelm for this detail.

BTW, I highly appreciate your new 1.15g, especially the Quick Mission and its editor. Well done

ET2SN · 10-04-18, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mspot

As for the rest, need input from a submariner.

It would be too recent to comment on.

That isn't a "yes" and it isn't a "no", more like a firm "no comment".

It would also depend on each hull and whether they had a tube or tubes converted and whether those tubes were converted back.

BTW, for the record. I have no idea.

shipkiller1 · 10-04-18, 07:59 PM

Speaking for US weapons, Jullian is correct. Only the old MK-37 had that capability.

I really is not a function of the ejections system except for having a 'swimout mode'.

XanderF · 01-22-19, 07:23 PM

Is anything required to allow for that?

I mean, my assumption would be that shooting a Mk37 from the baffles of a November-class trucking along at 10 knots or so should be a pretty safe shot - with a torpedo swim-out lacking a launch transient, I can't imagine he'd be able to hear that before it was too late.

Yet, you take that shot and BAM he's at full speed and hard-turning about, with, as often as not, a snap shot coming your way.

So it seems like...?not implemented?

AllQuiet · 02-25-19, 03:55 PM

can anyone explain what exactly is meant by the term 'swimout' model when referring to the mark 37?

CDR DPH · 02-25-19, 04:23 PM

Swimout: Tube is flooded, torp motor starts, torp swims out of the tube under its own power

Compressed air: Torp is pushed out of the tube by a burst of compressed air, torp motor starts and the torp swims off.

XanderF · 02-25-19, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDR DPH

Swimout: Tube is flooded, torp motor starts, torp swims out of the tube under its own power

Compressed air: Torp is pushed out of the tube by a burst of compressed air, torp motor starts and the torp swims off.

Kinda/sorta. I mean, yes, the alternative is 'compressed air', but it's not like older subs where the air actually was shot into the tube. OMG, the launch transient from *that* would be INSANE. You instead effectively have a tank of water, lets say more-or-less torpedo size, and the compressed air is blasted into THAT, which causes the water pressure in the tube to suddenly increase and force the torpedo out before it starts its engine. Still creates a launch transient, of course.

(The key point being that starting a fuel-burning torpedo's engine while it's in the tube, so it can run out on its own, is...not a great idea. The Mk37, like its Mk18 predecessor, were entirely 'electric' torpedoes, and so there was considered to be much less risk with them just starting their engine while inside the boat and 'swimming out' on their own power.)

shipkiller1 · 02-25-19, 08:19 PM

That's not quite how it works.

Compressed air (2000psi) is shot into the impulse cylinder. This moves the piston and it's attaching tail rod. This tail rod is connected to another piston located in the 'impulse tank'. This moves water from the impulse tank into the torpedo tube, through the 'slide valve' located in the torpedo tube, ejecting the weapon.

Compressed air never leaves the inside of the boat.

The US has not shot compressed air into a tube since the 50's.

This is only on the 688 class submarines.

SSN-21 (Seawolf), SSBN-726 (Ohio) and SSN-774 (Virginia) use a Turbine system.

DicheBach · 02-28-19, 12:40 PM

I was having experiences similar to those being expressed by some in this thread, i.e., you fire a couple torps and BAM, enemy snaps off a couple reaction shots . . .

Then I started paying more attention to:
(a) getting into silent mode IMMEDIATELY
(b) possibly slowing to a crawl of 1 or 0 knots
(c) possibly changing depth if that seems beneficial to remaining undetected
(d) focusing on the "Signatures" tab and trying to actually get the hang of identifying boats by their signatures
(e) once those identifications are getting pretty good and/or actual courses and speeds are coming in, then it seems one is "in business" as far as "being a silent hunter"

(f) once you have a contact well identified, you can see what his estimated detection levels of you are, and by using those to judge when it is safe to fire a dog-legged shot and then turning them at the bad guys once they are reasonably clear of my position AND then also turning my boat so that I am running on a course roughly parallel to the torps

Using these better practices, I've noticed I've got a LOT less quick response shots down the reciprocal bearing of my torps, and in fact have managed a half dozen or so kills where I scarcely needed to evade a torpedo at all; they fired at a bearing that was a couple thousand or more yards off my axis.

CDR DPH · 02-28-19, 05:17 PM

That's the way it is supposed to be done. Making sure that your target does not hear your transient is a big first step to staying hidden until the last possible moment.

Consider launching and running your torps on the oppose side of a layer to the target if a layer is present. Using a strong duct can also be beneficial masking the noise of your fish. Get to within a couple thousands yards and then steer the torp onto the target if it does automatically acquire due to the layer. Enemy will always detect your torp at around 1,000 yards.

As you have discovered already, dog-legged approaches work well.

Don't forget about the shadow zone - can be more useful and effective than being on the opposite side of a layer for stealth. Here you can hide from surface ships and subs at the same time.

Of course the slower you go the less noise you make. All quiet is a misnomer it is effectively as quiet as you can get without coming to a full stop which is as quiet as you can get.

Running your torps deep when targeting ships at depths of 800 feet or more (depending on the era you are playing) also helps.

Lots of little surprises to learn as you try different things in a different order under different circumstances.

Literally, every decision you make and every action you take has some effect on the possible outcome of any encounter.

10-03-18, 02:57 PM	#1
XenonSurf Sea Lord Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Germany, Italy Posts: 1,721 Downloads: 107 Uploads: 4	Swim-out torpedos? Hi, I wonder how the game handles swim-out torpedos if they are implemented. I know this is true for some mods, but since version 1.09 the enemy will snap-shot relentlessly, so I guess swim-outs are not simulated. Then, question is which subs did already have this technology, I don't know for Los Angeles class subs. And was this technology so silent afterall, and if yes were there some tactical flaws / disadvantages in using them? Thanks,

10-03-18, 03:48 PM	#2
Mspot Bosun Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: United States Posts: 62 Downloads: 57 Uploads: 0	In terms of in-game use: it works but, in my opinion, experience, very limited advantage. As for the rest, need input from a submariner. __________________ Then out spoke brave Horatius, the Captain of the Gate: to every man upon this earth death come soon or late. And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his gods.

01-22-19, 07:23 PM	#8
XanderF Samurai Navy Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 554 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Is anything required to allow for that? I mean, my assumption would be that shooting a Mk37 from the baffles of a November-class trucking along at 10 knots or so should be a pretty safe shot - with a torpedo swim-out lacking a launch transient, I can't imagine he'd be able to hear that before it was too late. Yet, you take that shot and BAM he's at full speed and hard-turning about, with, as often as not, a snap shot coming your way. So it seems like...?not implemented? __________________ Last edited by XanderF; 01-22-19 at 07:46 PM.

02-28-19, 12:40 PM	#13
DicheBach Machinist's Mate Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Atlanta Posts: 128 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	I was having experiences similar to those being expressed by some in this thread, i.e., you fire a couple torps and BAM, enemy snaps off a couple reaction shots . . . Then I started paying more attention to: (a) getting into silent mode IMMEDIATELY (b) possibly slowing to a crawl of 1 or 0 knots (c) possibly changing depth if that seems beneficial to remaining undetected (d) focusing on the "Signatures" tab and trying to actually get the hang of identifying boats by their signatures (e) once those identifications are getting pretty good and/or actual courses and speeds are coming in, then it seems one is "in business" as far as "being a silent hunter" (f) once you have a contact well identified, you can see what his estimated detection levels of you are, and by using those to judge when it is safe to fire a dog-legged shot and then turning them at the bad guys once they are reasonably clear of my position AND then also turning my boat so that I am running on a course roughly parallel to the torps Using these better practices, I've noticed I've got a LOT less quick response shots down the reciprocal bearing of my torps, and in fact have managed a half dozen or so kills where I scarcely needed to evade a torpedo at all; they fired at a bearing that was a couple thousand or more yards off my axis. __________________ You would make a ship sail against the wind and currents by lighting a bonfire under her decks? I pray you excuse me. I have no time to listen to such nonsense. -attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte (probably paraphrased from Les Merveilles de la science)

10-03-18, 04:07 PM	#3
Julhelm Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Icy North Posts: 693 Downloads: 189 Uploads: 0	Only Mark 37 is swimout-capable, because it's a 400mm weapon.

10-04-18, 07:59 PM	#7
shipkiller1 Electrician's Mate Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 136 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Speaking for US weapons, Jullian is correct. Only the old MK-37 had that capability. I really is not a function of the ejections system except for having a 'swimout mode'.

02-25-19, 03:55 PM	#9
AllQuiet Watch Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: TwinStates Posts: 28 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	can anyone explain what exactly is meant by the term 'swimout' model when referring to the mark 37?

02-25-19, 04:23 PM	#10
CDR DPH Helmsman Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 101 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Swimout: Tube is flooded, torp motor starts, torp swims out of the tube under its own power Compressed air: Torp is pushed out of the tube by a burst of compressed air, torp motor starts and the torp swims off.

02-25-19, 08:19 PM	#12
shipkiller1 Electrician's Mate Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 136 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	That's not quite how it works. Compressed air (2000psi) is shot into the impulse cylinder. This moves the piston and it's attaching tail rod. This tail rod is connected to another piston located in the 'impulse tank'. This moves water from the impulse tank into the torpedo tube, through the 'slide valve' located in the torpedo tube, ejecting the weapon. Compressed air never leaves the inside of the boat. The US has not shot compressed air into a tube since the 50's. This is only on the 688 class submarines. SSN-21 (Seawolf), SSBN-726 (Ohio) and SSN-774 (Virginia) use a Turbine system.

02-28-19, 05:17 PM	#14
CDR DPH Helmsman Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 101 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	That's the way it is supposed to be done. Making sure that your target does not hear your transient is a big first step to staying hidden until the last possible moment. Consider launching and running your torps on the oppose side of a layer to the target if a layer is present. Using a strong duct can also be beneficial masking the noise of your fish. Get to within a couple thousands yards and then steer the torp onto the target if it does automatically acquire due to the layer. Enemy will always detect your torp at around 1,000 yards. As you have discovered already, dog-legged approaches work well. Don't forget about the shadow zone - can be more useful and effective than being on the opposite side of a layer for stealth. Here you can hide from surface ships and subs at the same time. Of course the slower you go the less noise you make. All quiet is a misnomer it is effectively as quiet as you can get without coming to a full stop which is as quiet as you can get. Running your torps deep when targeting ships at depths of 800 feet or more (depending on the era you are playing) also helps. Lots of little surprises to learn as you try different things in a different order under different circumstances. Literally, every decision you make and every action you take has some effect on the possible outcome of any encounter.