[WIP] Realism mod

[PL_Harpoon]

Here's my attempts at making the game a bit more realistic.

As a result, some things are easier, others are harder. Here are some main gameplay differences to vanilla game:

Torpedoes are far deadlier

 

Any torpedo other that UMGT-1s will kill you instantly and even they can sink your ship after two hits.

They are also harder to evade as I've slightly increased their max pitch angle. You can still loose them by rapidly moving up/down but it's not that easy. Enemy torpedoes have also increased ranges so after you manage to loose it, getting away won't always help as after circling around they may find you again.

I also addressed a possible exploit with knuckles. They are still very easy to form (it's hardcoded) but they stay for a very short while and are effective only at close range. As a result they are more of a last resort thing than a free noisemakers.

On the flip side, detection angles has been halved for all torpedoes so it's slightly easier to get out of the way of an incoming torp.

Your boats move in more realistic way

 

The turn times (times to complete a 360 turn) remained more or less the same. Instead I modified the rudder speed to give them a feeling of weight. With this mod it will take some time for the boat to stop rotating after a full degree turn. It will also take some time to get that rotation speed. Planes/ballast remained the same.

Reworked sensors

 

The sensors work in a different way with this mod. First of all, detection ranges remain the same. But there's no more gap between detecting a contact and maintaining it. It always felt strange to me that your sonar could track the target where it couldn't detect it a minute ago. With this mod you can detect any ship if it's signal strength is at least 1 and you will loose contact at 0.

Ships are also harder to identify at long ranges - especially subs. Sometimes you may need to wait until it gets closer for clear identification. As for other changes, MAD sensors are reduced to 400 yards (based on a document I found - link somewhere in the discussion thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=231759) and I've also tweaked dipping sonar and sonobuoys a bit.

Mk-48 are no longer "superweapons"

 

They are still the best torpedoes in the game, however I did some tweaking based on the little data that there is to find.

Firstly, I reduced their sensor range - it's now 1600 yards (I'm planning to increase them a bit when the devs resolve a few torpedo-related bugs).

They are also the loudest torpedoes in the game. They are still a bit quieter than vanilla ones (I used DW and Fast Attack for comparison) - when running at 5 knots in perfectly clear condition you'll loose contact with a Mk-48 at about 13 KYDS. All the other torpedoes however are even quieter and the noise they make is based only on their speed and propulsion types (electric motors and pump-jet being the quietest combination).

On the other hand, wires brakes are much less frequent. When sailing at 5 knots you can literally steer the torpedo around your boat, which means you can also fire them at any angle, provided you're slow and steady.
Another potential drawback is the fact that with this mod reload times are more realistic. Thanks to Shipkiller1 we know that an experienced team can reload a torp tube in 15 minutes but (at least on 688) you can reload two tubes at once. That's why I've set them up to 7.5 minutes. To my surprise this actually had a very positive effect on gameplay - when engaging the enemy you suddenly need to be very cautious when and at what target to shoot.

The warheads have also been changed - you will need one torpedo for most submarines but larger surface ships might require two or sometimes even 3.

Few improvements to the campaign

 

Campaign is more challenging now.
Firstly, it's because there's slightly more ASW groups.

Then the Soviets start at 2 more locations, one ow which is in Norway, so unless they're repelled they're in good position to disable one of the SOSUS networks.

Also recon planes (both Allied and Soviet) have shorter ranges (they'll only detect a group if they fly over them).

Another thing is time in port - it's increased to at least 16 hours. I've also made every weapon require the same time to load - 45 minutes. In case you get sunk you need to wait 2 weeks for the new assignment.

Also, successfully special forces attacks will disrupt a base from anything between 2 to 7 days.

Missions also received a bot of tweaking - mostly their occurrence. Now there is a chance to get a land strike or seal team insertion sooner than before. There are also more sub-hunt missions and much less tankers/tenders hunts (in vanilla all missions have equal chances to occur, but there are 3 different tankers/tenders missions so you got them much more often). When it comes to tankers/tenders I've also removed them from Barents Sea as I thought it's a bit strange to put a refit ship so close to home port.

INSTALLATION

1. Make sure you're running the latest beta of Cold Waters
2. Download mod from here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=5268
3. Place the override folder in steamapps\common\Cold Waters\ColdWaters_Data\StreamingAssets

Currently I do not guarantee compatibility with other gameplay mods. It will work fine with any GUI/graphics/audio mods out there.


Recommended mods to use with

MekStark's reduced visibility mod
My hidden SNS COMP mod
(both available in the download section)

You can discuss this mod here or on the main thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=231759
Feel free to point out any inaccuracies (if you can explain them ).

[difool2]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Mk-48 are no longer "superweapons"
They are still the best torpedoes in the game, however I did some tweaking based on the little data that there is to find.

Firstly, I reduced their range - it's now 1600 yards (I'm planning to increase them a bit when the devs resolve a few torpedo-related bugs).

[My bold]

I assume this is a typo on your part?

[Skyhigh]

It's the range of the sensor of the MK48. Vanilla is 2000 yards if I am not mistaken.

BTW trying this mod and loving it so far. Surface contacts are definitely less easy and boy that is some sluggish driving

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by difool2

[My bold]

I assume this is a typo on your part?

No it's not

There are some sources that show that range but this isn't the most important factor.

The thing is, active sonar detection range of MK-48's should be reduced by the fact that most Soviet subs have anechoic coating. But in current version there's a bug which makes them still detect targets at maximum range.

When it comes to passive mode, I think it's way overpowered. You can creep at 5 knots with high ambient noise on the opposite site of a strong thermal layer and the torpedo will still detect you at it's maximum range.

When these things get fixed I'll turn it back to some higher values.

[ChaosphereIX]

yeah, sensor range...not range of the actual torpedo

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by ChaosphereIX

yeah, sensor range...not range of the actual torpedo

Ok, I've fixed the first post

[SeaCadt07]

Loving the mod so far! But two things;
1. Can we talk about the TLAM strike mission. At best you have a salvo of four. Mission requires 8. I don't know how realistic it would be to expect these older boats to dance the dance for an hour while you reload. Shoot your 4 shot salvo and GTFO sounds more realistic to me.

2. Ugmt-1. They seem a little op. Maybe I'm just having to relearn evasion. But they run forever and acquisition range is insane for a piddly air dropped torpedo

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by SeaCadt07

Loving the mod so far! But two things;
1. Can we talk about the TLAM strike mission. At best you have a salvo of four. Mission requires 8. I don't know how realistic it would be to expect these older boats to dance the dance for an hour while you reload. Shoot your 4 shot salvo and GTFO sounds more realistic to me.

Actually, I'm seriously thinking about it. On the other hand I've just completed one such mission, and the reload time is so long that if you play right you can end up 30 KYDS from previous firing location and it's actually a perfect spot for a second salvo.

Originally Posted by SeaCadt07

2. Ugmt-1. They seem a little op. Maybe I'm just having to relearn evasion. But they run forever and acquisition range is insane for a piddly air dropped torpedo

Well, IRL they use the same targeting system as USET-80. As for their operational range, it is less than half of the other torpedoes. Also it has a weak warhead.

[Skyhigh]

The torps dropped by helos are okay.
It takes 3 of them to kill you, so cannot be too unhappy with that.

The TLAM reloading does suck a bit, but tomorrow I will take on the challenge to reload 4 and will provide feedback on that

The sluggish rudder I have most difficulty with but just a case of getting used to it, I suppose.

[blkdimnd]

Hope I'm posting this in the correct thread.

I was just watching Jive Turkey's live stream, and he mentioned that IRL the crew can load the port and starboard torpedo tubes at the same time.

Can you add this to your mod, or is it a game limitation?

[GDFTigerTank]

The reason that PL_Harpoon said he set the reload time to 7.5 minutes instead of 15 was because doing a double reload (one tube each side at the same time) was currently impossible within the game engine. HOWEVER Jive Turkey also said today that 7.5 -8 minutes was a realistic timeframe for loading ONE tube on a Los Angeles with a trained crew.

I would therefore suggest as a compromise between Killerfish's crazy fast reload speed and "The 15 Minute Source" newbie crew reload speed that the timeframe for reloads should be 3.75-4 minutes to in effect give us "double reloads" as a realistic speed - because Jive Turkey should know what he's talking about and if he says 7.5 is realistic over 15 minutes per tube then I'd suggest going with it.

EVEN BETTER OPTION?: Can we get a a randomized variable so that a torpedo may reload in as fast as 3 minutes or as long as 7 depending on crew skill or random problems encountered during reloading?

Other thoughts/notes for PL_Harpoon based on the stream from Jive today:

1. The repetitious knuckle forming at flank speed with a significant rudder shift seemed to be an unintended bug? It was way too rapid with this mod - literally every 2 or 3 seconds for a while as Jive was trying to make a sustained turn at flank and then bringing the rudder back neutral... The knuckle forming should only occur over major rudder shifts and it should be "one knuckle", not a "line of knuckles" as the turn continues. It was hard to see exactly what the control inputs were when this occurred but it was fairly obvious from Jive's reaction that he also found this troublesome.

2. The first encounter Jive had was with a Whiskey and a Romeo which are some fairly noisy boats from what I understand, and he had to close within a few thousand yards to pick them up on passive... in good weather. Also there were multiple audible launch transients to the player (Jive) and viewers that you could easily hear but the sub's own Sonar Crew could not "detect" them or even provide a bearing... That seems a bit much. I get wanting to make it difficult but if it's already that hard in a Los Angeles, you may need to tone it down for balancing and actual realism. I don't doubt you have sources for your adjustments but keep in mind that maintenance on Russian boats is an actual issue and that as their lifespan lengthens they get significantly noisier than when they're brand spanking new out of the factory. I can also say from other experiences I've had working with Russian documents, their "official" numbers often have a tenancy to exaggerate positively and conceal weaknesses... so take them with a grain of salt.

3. Not an issue with the mod but a thought on enhancing it. Currently there seems to be little or no reason to use the "rig for silent running option" in the game. Could you possibly boost the noise level generated by a sub while reloading torpedoes so that attempting to do in the middle of a passive detection cat & mouse game carries a significant risk? Also perhaps not using it could increase the risk of generating a random transient?

Despite my nitpicking PL_Harpoon (and I admit openly that I am just an armchair sub simmer with no actual experience) I consider this mod a great step in the right direction because it seems Killerfish so far is not at all interested in providing a "max realism" option of their own. I just hope that you'll continue tweaking and perfecting to "get it right". Thanks for all your hard work!

[PL_Harpoon]

Thanks for the input,GDFTigerTank. I've just finished watching the stream.

Originally Posted by GDFTigerTank

The reason that PL_Harpoon said he set the reload time to 7.5 minutes instead of 15 was because doing a double reload (one tube each side at the same time) was currently impossible within the game engine. HOWEVER Jive Turkey also said today that 7.5 -8 minutes was a realistic timeframe for loading ONE tube on a Los Angeles with a trained crew.


I would therefore suggest as a compromise between Killerfish's crazy fast reload speed and "The 15 Minute Source" newbie crew reload speed that the timeframe for reloads should be 3.75-4 minutes to in effect give us "double reloads" as a realistic speed - because Jive Turkey should know what he's talking about and if he says 7.5 is realistic over 15 minutes per tube then I'd suggest going with it.

I think for now I'll stick with 7.5 minutes and see how things develop.

Originally Posted by GDFTigerTank

EVEN BETTER OPTION?: Can we get a a randomized variable so that a torpedo may reload in as fast as 3 minutes or as long as 7 depending on crew skill or random problems encountered during reloading?

That'd be cool, but it's impossible currently. And to be honest with you there's a lot of more important things to do.

Originally Posted by GDFTigerTank

1. The repetitious knuckle forming at flank speed with a significant rudder shift seemed to be an unintended bug? It was way too rapid with this mod - literally every 2 or 3 seconds for a while as Jive was trying to make a sustained turn at flank and then bringing the rudder back neutral... The knuckle forming should only occur over major rudder shifts and it should be "one knuckle", not a "line of knuckles" as the turn continues. It was hard to see exactly what the control inputs were when this occurred but it was fairly obvious from Jive's reaction that he also found this troublesome.

Yeah, can't do anything about it unfortunately. It's a result of modified turning properties and it's hardcoded.

Originally Posted by GDFTigerTank

2. The first encounter Jive had was with a Whiskey and a Romeo which are some fairly noisy boats from what I understand, and he had to close within a few thousand yards to pick them up on passive... in good weather. Also there were multiple audible launch transients to the player (Jive) and viewers that you could easily hear but the sub's own Sonar Crew could not "detect" them or even provide a bearing... That seems a bit much. I get wanting to make it difficult but if it's already that hard in a Los Angeles, you may need to tone it down for balancing and actual realism. I don't doubt you have sources for your adjustments but keep in mind that maintenance on Russian boats is an actual issue and that as their lifespan lengthens they get significantly noisier than when they're brand spanking new out of the factory. I can also say from other experiences I've had working with Russian documents, their "official" numbers often have a tenancy to exaggerate positively and conceal weaknesses... so take them with a grain of salt.

For one, the ambient noise was about 94 so it's not that calm. Secondly, I haven't changed any detection ranges. All subs are as loud as in vanilla game. The only difference is that in vanilla game when you detect a vessel he's at 10 signal strength and you won't loose him until it goes down to 0. With my mod, you can detect any ship at signal strength of 1 but that 1 is at the same distance as 10 in vanilla (I hope I'm making sense here). So, if a ship accelerates to 15 knots for 10 seconds and then slow down back to 5 you will hear him only during those 10 seconds. Then, he was running straight into that Whiskey, so he couldn't detect him with towed array. If he were to change course a bit the towed array would pick that sub a lot sooner (towed array can pick up targets that are about 160% further than BQQ-5, just like in vanilla game).

Originally Posted by GDFTigerTank

3. Not an issue with the mod but a thought on enhancing it. Currently there seems to be little or no reason to use the "rig for silent running option" in the game. Could you possibly boost the noise level generated by a sub while reloading torpedoes so that attempting to do in the middle of a passive detection cat & mouse game carries a significant risk? Also perhaps not using it could increase the risk of generating a random transient?

Based on what Shipkiller1 has said, one of the reasons for long reload times is that it is quiet. And actually I don't think that increasing the importance of silent running would be more realistic. After all, it's not 1942 any more

Originally Posted by GDFTigerTank

Despite my nitpicking PL_Harpoon (and I admit openly that I am just an armchair sub simmer with no actual experience) I consider this mod a great step in the right direction because it seems Killerfish so far is not at all interested in providing a "max realism" option of their own. I just hope that you'll continue tweaking and perfecting to "get it right". Thanks for all your hard work!

Thanks. By the way, I'm a fellow armchair simmer myself. A lot of credits for realistic data goes to from RL submariners on this forum. I've just put everything I've learned here in a single package.

[aiknx999]

Huge thanks to PL_Harpoon for making this mod!! I do have a question though - description says that it's optimized for 1984 campaign, but did anyone try playing it in 1968 or 2004? I've installed this mod very recently, so I'm not sure how well it would work with other campaigns. I imagine the main difference in terms of gameplay would be balancing sensor and torpedo performance in different years (i.e. Mk37 and ADCAP). I'll definitely test these things myself in the near future, but meanwhile, has anyone done that already and can share their experience perhaps?

[PL_Harpoon]

As for the '68 campaign the biggest difference is the SET-65 torpedo. In '68 it had a different sensor with much shorter detection range.

Also, I didn't test it for other scenarios, so I can't guarantee how it will play out.

[ChaosphereIX]

this realism mod seems rather difficult

I am not bad at this game, but with this mod installed, I get my ass handed to me by anything more than a Foxtrot. A Victor I should not get the upper hand on an LA class...but he can hear me, shoot me and I have no idea where he is.