question regarding the English Channel.

[boonie]

hi guys, i have a question.

from what i know the germans during ww2 has a pretty strong air force from the start to middle part of ww2. and they pretty much has control on that part of the european continent, why did they not clear up the channel with their air power so their subs can have safer passage to their hunting ground?

did they tried but failed? i imagine it would be quite easy to pop up over the coastline and straffe the bejesus out of all the patrol boats there and beat a quick retreat even if situation were not so favorable. just my thoughts..

[Sailor Steve]

The call it the ENGLISH Channel for a reason. Germany has nothing that can come close to matching the Royal Navy. The English heavily mined both ends of the channel, and only they had the charts showing where the mines were (and weren't). While the Royal Air Force was relatively weak, the German Luftwaffe fighters (the famous Me/Bf-109) had a rather short range.

The Kriegsmarine couldn't overpower the RN. The Luftwaffe had the bombers but not the fighter escort to stop the RAF from defending the RN ships. This is the reason for the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe had to knock out the RAF before they could hope to defeat the Royal Navy, and when they actually tried that it all went wrong for them.

As for popping up over the coastline, they had two more problems. The bombers had to stay at a fairly high altitude to avoid the batteries of anti-aircraft guns placed all around any possible targets. That, and the British had the world's first extensive Radar system, and it was tied to an equally massive communication system.

An easy way to get a grasp on this is to watch the fantastic old movie Battle of Britain. You'll be informed and entertained like never before.

[Aktungbby]

Anything U can actually fortify U can name!!?? A forgotten bit of history: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/world-war-ii-fort-madness-britain-s-bizarre-sea-defense-against-the-germans-a-728754.html & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunsell_Forts

[boonie]

hmm i still dont really get it.. they practically had control over the entire french coastline. the radar thingy should be easily spoofed by low flying and there should be no AA all the way until they hit the water. i think their bf110 should be well suited to do some quicky rodeo over the waters. couple that with some observation stations over the coastline this should be pretty feasible... just cant stop wondering why it wasnt done properly..

[Sniper297]

I would suggest going to your local library, non-fiction section, find some books on the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain in WW2. The main weapon they had against shipping was the JU-87 STUKA, which was defenseless against Hurricanes and Spitfires. The 110 was also no match for RAF fighters, and the Germans quickly discovered they were useless as escorts because they needed escorts themselves, so every time they ventured over the channel they were shot to pieces.

As for low altitude flights to defeat radar, there are entire books and chapters devoted to the rapid advances in the capabilities of British Chain Home and Chain Home Low radar in 1940.

But don't take my word for it, research it.

[Jimbuna]

@boonie

An interesting question and coincidentally precisely what Steve and I discussed at length just a couple of days ago.

Sniper suggests researching the subject and rightly so because the subject matter is up there with other military achievements that are of great importance to the British people.

Meanwhile, I'll post a few links to help you along and leave you with the famous words of our leader after said events, in those troublesome days when Britain stood alone...“Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.” ― Winston S. Churchill

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zgs34j6

http://www.history.co.uk/study-topic...tle-of-britain

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...le-of-britain/

[De Ruyter]

Originally Posted by boonie

hmm i still dont really get it.. they practically had control over the entire french coastline. the radar thingy should be easily spoofed by low flying and there should be no AA all the way until they hit the water. i think their bf110 should be well suited to do some quicky rodeo over the waters. couple that with some observation stations over the coastline this should be pretty feasible... just cant stop wondering why it wasnt done properly..

As was mentioned, the BF110 pilots found out that they were totally outmatched, especially by Spitfires. The German tactic of bombing airfields was taking its toll, but then they switched to bombing London and other cities, giving Fighter Command a respite and enabling them to regroup and replace their losses. That was also a blunder on Germany's part.
Also as mentioned, England's radar setup was unmatched at the time. They had both long and short-ranged radar, and extensive spotters, so it would have been difficult to get in undetected, even at low altitudes. Had they gotten the HO229 back then, it would have been more feasible at the time, but that was developed too late in the war, and never saw service.

[Sniper297]

Can't believe all the pundits either.

1. Hugh Dowding (RAF fighter command chief) had a plan B - if the fighter losses got too great he would have pulled them back out of range of the 109 and waited for the invasion, accepting whatever damage that caused in southeast England.

2. The pundits often claim the ME-262 and HO-229 could have won the war for Germany if they had been produced sooner. False. The metallurgy for jet turbines was still being developed, and to withstand the heat and stress the steel alloy required high concentrations of tungsten and nickel. Tungsten was no problem, but 95% of the world's nickel was in Canada, which would have been unlikely to sell nickel to the Germans since Canada was on the Allied side. So the prototype JUMO jet engines had a MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) of 100 hours. Since the production engines couldn't be mass produced with the high nickel concentration, the turbines had a MTBF of 5 hours. So essentially every jet flight required both engines be changed after 1 or 2 sorties, and they still blew up in flight all too frequently.

[MortuusSum]

Originally Posted by boonie

hmm i still dont really get it.. they practically had control over the entire french coastline. the radar thingy should be easily spoofed by low flying and there should be no AA all the way until they hit the water. i think their bf110 should be well suited to do some quicky rodeo over the waters. couple that with some observation stations over the coastline this should be pretty feasible... just cant stop wondering why it wasnt done properly..

Well, keep in mind that hindsight is 20/20; everyone and their mother knows now that nap of the Earth flying can get you around RADAR detection, but at the time Germany didn't really have working RADAR, so they wouldn't have known offhand how to spoof it. And even if they did, back in WWII and even in WWI German fighter doctrine, from the designer to the factory to the pilot, was focused on high-altitude, high-speed, diving attacks, followed by a swift climb away - a "Boom 'n Zoom". Britain, on the other hand, historically made superb turn fighters, from the Sopwith Pup ("Ace James McCudden stated that 'When it came to manoeuvring, the Sopwith [Pup] would turn twice to an Albatros' once' ...") to the Supermarine Spitfire. These could beat German aircraft by forcing them into a circling fight that they won through superior turning radii (as long as Jerry didn't just climb away). So, "spoofing" Britain's RADAR, even if they thought to do it, put them at a disadvantage right off the bat, should the RAF show up.


EDIT: I just realised, I should be clear; the statements I made about Germany making good energy fighters and Britain making good turn fighters are by no means categorical, just tendencies. As counterexamples to the above, the famous Fokker Dr. I (The Red Baron's cool triplane) was a fantastic turn fighter, largely for the same reason as the equally famous Sopwith Camel; both had a rotary engine that let them whip to the right with frankly terrifying agility. The Royal Aircraft Factory S.E.5, on the other hand, was an energy fighter that saw considerable success on the Western Front after its introduction - Canada's William Bishop, the third highest scoring ace of WWI, achieved many of his victories in one, and it was nicknamed "the Ace Maker" by its pilots.

[boonie]

very informative discussion thanks guys.

i really appreciate you guys (and this forum) to sharing these info and have a good discussion on this kind of topic.