Struggling to play sub sims - after years of trying!

[CamaroMan]

I started out with the 688 edition many years back, have tried dangerous waters and recently got sub command -

I "get" the principles of sonar, ive read and read and read - but its so darn confusing!

When i start a mission - i basically deploy the towed array, check depth etc and start listening - however i always end up with a balls nest of contacts, not sure which one is right. Im familiar with all the controls - however, i just cant seem to "crack" these games!

What is a beginners approach? At the moment i start with narrowband, if there is nothing there i try broad. If i get sounds on towed, i change course to find out which is false and drop it.

Then i head over to demon, check the blade count (3-4 = surface), 5 + = sub.. (more or less).. then i try id the contact via the frequencies and start assigning the speed (tpk) into the TMA screen..

I just seem to end up getting lost between contacts, duplicates - its driving me nuts.. Like say for instance, will a towed array give the same contact at a slightly different bearing than spherical? it makes sense since its far out the back -

stuff like this continually perplexes me even though I have an idea of the workings -

I have all the manuals, ive watched guys click through maps on youtube (obviously replays which they know well!) - any idea on a roadmap approach to get me closer to the TRUE contacts and their id's?


Mr below average sub sinker!!

[Aktungbby]

CamaroMan!

[Mike Abberton]

First off, welcome aboard CamaroMan.

Second, if you're trying to understand the ins and outs of subsimming, I highly recommend you check out FPSchazly's series of "How to" videos on YouTube. They are a great source of information on TMA, sensors and weapons.

The only big advice I can give you is patience. Subs are a slow steady type of fight. You can't rush to a firing solution.

My only specific advice is regarding reconciling contacts from different sources (broadband, narrowband, conformal, active intercept, etc.) on similar bearings is to plot them up in the TMA individually at first. That might mean making some assumptions about some of the parameters, especially speed, just keep it all the same (e.g., all 10 knots). At first you'll have a bunch of contacts all over the overhead map, but as you refine the individual contact plots, they will start to group together. Eventually the groups will be distinct enough that you can start merging tracks and better refining your TMA solutions. I find this technique is especially necessary to plot out individual ships in a surface fleet.

Mike

[CamaroMan]

hi, thanks and thanks.. i did find some of his videos just last week, but the one sonar one he just clicks around everywhere in a confusing way - murmuring ifs and maybes - without being precise enough for me to grasp what his approach is..

ill look through some more vids, but im really so tired of getting nowhere, its absolutely frustrating! Ive spent so many hours going in circles.. bilge rat is a very appropriate title!

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by CamaroMan

hi, thanks and thanks.. i did find some of his videos just last week, but the one sonar one he just clicks around everywhere in a confusing way - murmuring ifs and maybes - without being precise enough for me to grasp what his approach is..

ill look through some more vids, but im really so tired of getting nowhere, its absolutely frustrating! Ive spent so many hours going in circles.. bilge rat is a very appropriate title!

Hey, CamaroMan! Sorry to hear that my video was too rambling, it's a bad habit of mine. I cut so much rambling out of those tutorials, it's not even funny! Was that the 'Intro to Sonar' video or the 'TMA and Sonar Trends' video or a random gameplay video? Anyway, the situation you are describing is indeed a good topic to discuss. I've been meaning to really start my Advanced Tutorials videos but haven't gotten around to it. This topic sounds like a good one to cover!

I end up doing things for so long that I forget there's a good bit of work that goes into sorting things out like classifying and merging tracks, figuring out which ones are relevant, etc!

[USA~Driver]

I "get" the principles of sonar, ive read and read and read - but its so darn confusing!

Learning to be a hunter takes time. I can remember being you not that long ago.

I go back to the original 688 Attack Sub - circa 1990 - on Sega Genesis and played every one of Kim Castro's games all the way up to Dangerous Waters before it finally clicked for me. What's worse is now I realize how truly simple it all is. Just have to take it in bites, not all at once.

In addition to the priceless FPSchazly videos I strongly suggest making a simple mission(s) using easy to track, non shooting entities. Place them no more than 10 NM's away and just practice using the Narrowband set first, using all available sensors and just practice with that. Repetition is the key.

Understanding the 50Hz 60Hz differential was a breakthrough for me. Also distinguishing surface from sub surface - how that looks on Narrowband - all important.

I built me a weapons range simulator and I think I've played it over a 100 times already using different submarines (RA Mod) and different threats. Really have honed my skills in my own controlled environment. You could try something along those lines - Knowing where it is helps for practice - and use truth if you have to learning - no shame in that.

We also have a TS server, hell I'll hand walk you through a mission if I have too.

[mgmsub]

i must admit my interest was recently was reignited by FPS chazlers vids.
and not bad they are too
but think of each contact as a sensor contact estimation until you range them in and merge them as one..

set up a single mission with a single contact even if it is a fishing vessel to start with.. once you honed you skills using that then try multiple contacts..

but the TMA is you friend


Regards

MGMSUB
~Run Deep Run Silent~

[Pisces]

Whenever I jump into a mission I always slow down to minimal speed to prevent detection and stay on a fixed course for a while. Reeling in the towed array to 1/3rd of it's length, as this shortens the time it takes to straighten after a turn and prevents drooping too deep or dragging over the sea floor. It doesn't suffer sensitivity as much. Whatever length is needed for it to not scratch the sea floor.

Then I start listening on sonar, using first broadband on both short-term and medium-term waterfall for obvious near contacts on all arrrays. But not mark them yet. I write those down into a table on paper with columnheaders of sonar type, true bearing, pre-calculate what mirror bearing that would be if found on the towed array, classify as strong/weak/biological, and leave a column for contactID to be filled in later. Then repeating with narrowband recording all the frequencies I find on those bearings, and any new contacts likewise. On the TA I make sure to not record the mirror-duplicates as new ones: mirror bearings have the same angle to your course/bow as the other one, it's just on the opposite side. Or if you grab your calculator:2 x own course, subtract true bearing from it, add or subtract 360 as needed to it to get it within 0-360. The result is the true bearing of the mirrored contact.

Bow and Hull frequencies you can mark right away for assigning contact IDs. I hold off from marking TA contacts until after a turn, to avoid false positives as the mirror contacts.

If frequencies of different contacts overlap then I slowly scan from left to right across them. One of them will be faded out on the left of that bearing, and the other on the right of it. Though sometimes you have 3 or more and it gets complicated, but generally not impossible. Usually you can distinguish the shapes of the jiggly lines as the bearing pointer is changed and note where the signal is strongest. Or use the edges where the jiggly line is faded completely and take the middle of it.The contacts may have only a few or 1 degrees between them, but the shape of the line makes them distinguishable from each other. If they peak on the same bearing, so be it for now. Bearing drift will take care of that in the future.

For the above it is important that you have your monitor or graphicscard settings adjusted for brightness/contrast/gamma, or adding a line for software adjustment of the gammasetting in the dangereouswaters.ini. Look in this download for a screenshot how to detect the fainest of signals: SC-HQ TACMAN by timmyg00 See more about the dangerouswaters.ini file here: http://www.commanders-academy.com/fo...php/t-179.html

If their bearings drift already you may even see intensity shifting across the bearing over time. I would also make a note of probable bearing drift direction for help with future TMA.

Then I start plotting all of those bearings on a circular graph on paper. Plotting the bearings from the bow and hull as unique bearings, but linking the 2 mirrored TA bearings together by a thin connecting line. Then I start looking for groupings. Bow, hull and TA bearings (and potentially active intercepts or ESM on that bearing collected in the mean time) together suggests there is a contact there ready for marking and "mastering". But only if the frequencies do not contradict. Depending on if you play stock this may help with filtering frequencies:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=3403

otherwise you may just have to make do with a table of narrowband frequencies, or scan through the frequency library filter.

If I find those bow or hull contacts near non-matching TA contacts as above, or grouped TA contacts that can be a true contact over a mirrored contact, I start looking at how far I can turn to clearly separate those contacts in bearing on the temporary assumption they are mirrors. (keeping in mind the baffles of each sensor) The mirror bearings should move twice as much as your turn, in the same direction, from their old positions. Unless that flips them across your course/TA line, so try to avoid getting them near it. They might have moved a bit on their own if there is some drift in them over time.

After I determined the best change in course to separate the TA bearings from all others I make the turn. As the turn is in progress the TA bearings drift quite a bit so I don't really take that as a sign, other then marking the significant drifters as possible mirrors. And after the turn verify the old known bearings on narrowband to see which changed for sure. Culling those bearings from the table I made previously, and mark the correct bearing to assign an ID. I don't care about assigning trackers yet until I know the full picture.

Once I have identified the mirrors from the true contacts I start matching frequencies at those bearings with all the available sensors. If they correspond then I merge them into a master contact. But be mindful that faint contacts may not show the higher frequencies, and also not show all the deamon lines (to verify). Then decide which are the interesting ones to track. And assign TA tracker to them and if possible (due to signal strenghte or baffles) either bow or hull array tracker.

The TA does indeed give a different bearing from the bow or hull sonar if the contact is on your beam. The further the TA is streamed the bigger the difference. Also, it is larger as the contact gets near. Bearings to far away contacts are almost parallel and not very usefull. It is an often used method to triangulate the position of the contact. But it takes up sparse trackers that may be needed for other contacts in dense environments.

[CamaroMan]

Hi guys - sorry - didnt get any new notifications..

shazley - yr tuts are gr8! and also re-ignited my thirst to improve, I recently tried the DW misisons, and started getting better. your tips on trying narrow band makes it ALOT easier - i was used to the 688 method of broadband.

I also reel in the towed array if its +- 300ft for dragging etc, sometimes i like to hit 3kts if theres alot of threat / traffic..

Do you guys still use the broad/narrowband to eliminate false contacts? I think this shd be a priority (unless the mission requires otherwise) - having all these contacts everywhere adds to the confusion imo!

tx Pisces - some good tips ill look into - gah, forgot to mention i played an older dos game called Seawolf - thats where it all started! I loved it -


Ill look around, but is there a sticky for basic sonar ops here somewhere, like what range the different arrays are, what to use them for, and various methods of id'ing contacts?

I hope noone was offended by my bluntness, just frustrated! i LOVE these games, the suspense and challenge, just havent managed to "crack" the newer games.

Ill keep trying though!

once again shaz - gr8 tuts, tx for the time! ill go back and keep trying!

[Stewy1]

Do you guys still use the broad/narrowband to eliminate false contacts?

I'm no expert (a returning player getting back into DW) but the first thing I do when I get the "double" TA contact is turn 10-20 degrees (either way) to eliminate the false contact.

Your broadband skills sound a lot better than my skills - I play mainly the LA boats (using RA Mod) and I can hardly get anything on broadband...TA and Narrow Band are my go to's when searching for bad-guys...

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by CamaroMan

Do you guys still use the broad/narrowband to eliminate false contacts? I think this shd be a priority (unless the mission requires otherwise) - having all these contacts everywhere adds to the confusion imo!..

Obviously in the way I described. But what other way do you have with the broadband/narrowband?

If you mean the cheaty way, where the TMA-autocrew seemingly omnisciently drops the mirror contact as soon as it is created, then it's a definite no. They can't know that with a static own course and speed.

[CamaroMan]

Originally Posted by Pisces

If you mean the cheaty way, where the TMA-autocrew seemingly omnisciently drops the mirror contact as soon as it is created, then it's a definite no. They can't know that with a static own course and speed.

No cheaty way nope, my thinking is that if you have the same "window" on both arrays AND it shows, then i guess you could eliminate the false. I guess i mis phrased lol- i meant using different arrays obviously.

my bad


last few missions i played my missile didnt find any of 3 targets (these were sphere array contacts!!) - the TMA dots were well lined up and tpk/speed locked. i usually wait for an extra line or two in the TMS screen to confirm my solution before firing - still nothing has hit

scratches head

I really need a test map with some dummy contacts who wont fire at me. anyone made something like this? might get map editor and make it myself

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by CamaroMan

last few missions i played my missile didnt find any of 3 targets (these were sphere array contacts!!) - the TMA dots were well lined up and tpk/speed locked. i usually wait for an extra line or two in the TMS screen to confirm my solution before firing - still nothing has hit

scratches head

I really need a test map with some dummy contacts who wont fire at me. anyone made something like this? might get map editor and make it myself

Missile/torpedo? Shkval? Did you turn truth on to check your solutions or watch the replay? Nothing wrong with turning on truth to check out your solutions when you're learning!

Having said that, getting the proper solution is only half the battle. Once torpedoes are fired, people are going to start evading. So you're going to have to update your solution accordingly given their new speed and you may have to manually manipulate your torpedo through changing its course and pre-enables / re-enables.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by CamaroMan

No cheaty way nope, my thinking is that if you have the same "window" on both arrays AND it shows, then i guess you could eliminate the false. I guess i mis phrased lol- i meant using different arrays obviously.

That one definitely, if it shows on TA and another. But if it shows on Sphere or hull array depends on strength and the frequency in narrowband. Higher frequencies loose strength faster in distance, so you need to be closer to get them on hull (medium frequencies) and sphere (high frequencies) vs. the TA (low frequencies). Also, the common bearings that all 3 arrays can listen to are on your flank or around your beam. And having to turn your sub to get a contact on all of them might be difficult depending on the tactical situation. A slight own course change to change the mirror contact bearing is done quicker, imho.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by CamaroMan

I really need a test map with some dummy contacts who wont fire at me. anyone made something like this? might get map editor and make it myself

Molon Labe made a TMA tutorial mission with guide. I'm sure it is downloadable here on subsim in the downloads section. Otherwise it is on subguru.com