Royal disaster for German intelligence agency

[Skybird]

A double-agent who was arrested in summer last year, is reported by BILD-Zeitung to have sold over 200 critical documents to American intelligence services and, much worse, has stolen data on the identities of over half of Germany's covered agents in global operation. Of the 6500 agents, over 3500 have their identity lifted by the compromsied data-set.

The Germans practically can begin at the starting line again to build a new network.

The agents compromised worked for the diplomatic service, in German embassies, and in operation region of the Bundeswehr.

Ideals played no role for the rat doing this, it seems. He seems to have done it for money. My advise would have been to not let it become known that he was arrested, but to sink his body in a deep river.

[Bilge_Rat]

As you say, that story of the german spying for the U.S. has been public since last summer. I was surprised it did not cause more of a stink, but as I understand it, Merkel has been downplaying the story to not compromise the relationship between Germany and the U.S.?

[Skybird]

They probably also needed time to find out the real scope of the mess. It certainly is one of the worst intel disaster in Germany ever. Maybe even the worst. Having this coming not from Russian or Chinese side, but most likely from American side, tells something on the real state of things.

As former US ambassador to Germany Jack Kornblum said: States have no friends. States have interests.

[Rockstar]

Poor spooks, never heard from or seen when sucessful. Ever the objects of blame in cases of failure.

[Jeff-Groves]

Pff. You spy on us, we spy on you.
Hell. My neighbors spy on me and I watch those bastums!
What's the issue here?
Someone got caught?
Big whoop.

[Skybird]

Compare number and budgets of German and American intel services, and then again shrug the shoulders and say "we spy on you, you spy on us." That reminds of another comment by which Americ ahas mad eitself many friends in Europe: "The (paper) dollar is our currency but your problem."

And I leave out the American advantages regarding the technological nature and location of the internet communication network.

If all that would add to a shared knowledge pool about terrorism and hosltiefoeiogn powers, then I would nto c0mplaiun. But the most is about business espionage and economic theft. And here the damage for Germany goes into the high billions. And it is no longer the Russians or Chinese who are our worst enemies. Its America and its accomplice in crime, the UK.

[Betonov]

Spying on allies is a training program for rookie spies.
If you screw up, they're just sending you back. In one piece.

[Jeff-Groves]

Originally Posted by Skybird

But the most is about business espionage and economic theft.

And just who do you think runs things? The Governments? The people you elected?

I got a bridge I can sell you in New York!

It's called Big Business. If anyone thinks Gov's are anything other than that?
You really need to re-think things.

PS. Waiting for wall of text.

[Skybird]

Thinking of myself as somebody being convinced by the superiority of capitalism, I am nevertheless also aware of the biggest threats to capitalism: socialism, monopolism that comes both in business and politics, and lobbyism by wich business hijacks and erodes politics. Ironically, and tragically, while socialism is bred by democracy, the latter two plagues are inherently bred by the nature of capitalism itself, but they are more like antagonistic attractors than benefits, just like disease and death are the antagonists of health and life: they are naturally linked to it, nevertheless are being fought against, and being delayed, if possible. Like we battle disease and early death, we should battle monopolism and lobbyism as well, the first by diversifying our own actions on the free market, and the second by hindering lobbyists having a partner in polticis to bribe and to manipulate: by preventing a state structure to form up, and having today'S state services (all monopolistic and thus increasingly expensive while becoming increaisingly ineffective and non-competitive) being provided by competing companies instead.

With your last sentence you just illustrate why I argue that the big monopoles of elitist power for the parasitical political caste and its clients as well as the economic monopolists on the market, must be destroyed at all cost. Big business will always try to form superstructures of controlling its consumers that are at the same time its producers and workers, the trick would be that consumers are becoming so clever that they do not support that and vote with their wallets against that - so that no company could raise to the ranks of "Big Business" player monopolising power and preventing business competition while dictating the rules. However, voting with wallets become sineffective again if currencies cna get manipulated at will by governments.

That is the idealistic argument.

The realistic view on things is that people will lazily prefer to just care for the next day, for their own desires, and will not care for "the bigger picture". They will thus become victims of corrupted elites time and again. And maybe they do not deserve it any better then. When people have no clue on why they should even want to be free, all is lost.

So dont tell me about Big Business, as if saying those two words would be an excuse. They aren't. "Big Business" only means that things have gotten out of balance.

[Jeff-Groves]

Ain't telling you nothing Mate.


It is what it is and We both know that. I just like your responces to the obvious.

Granted most can't see beyound what is on the telly?
I live and work in a world where I see it everyday.
Bribes, pay offs, lies with no recourse, and so on.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Betonov

Spying on allies is a training program for rookie spies.
If you screw up, they're just sending you back. In one piece.

Never thought of it that way...that being said though, I wouldn't be too trusting of the intelligence agencies of even a friendly nation not to covertly bump off some friendly neighbours spies if they're able to. No telling who is going to be your friends tomorrow after all.

During Ronnies time, an American was imprisoned for selling secrets to Israel.

[Buddahaid]

I would be very surprised if any of the western allies didn't spend a lot of time spying on each other. Really Sky, is it that surprising?

[Skybird]

If declared "freinds" are the worst of all enemies, then I think yes, that is a bit surprising. Mind you, already last year the assessments over here had been changed that not Russia or China is our worst opponent doing us the greatest economic damage, but America. Mind you also its not just this apparent American coup of placing a mole in the BND and compromising over one half of the BND's network of agents, it is the immense sniffing and breaching of privacy by the NSA and GCHQ that Snowden has revealed as well. Their technological means also get used for economic spionage, since business is in bed with politics in Germany - and Britian and the US alike, in the latter more than anywhere else in the West. People over here take governments sniffing in their privacy extremely queer (although they do not realise that much that that sniffing job they even invite by using all those antisocial media networks and telling the word about themselves carelessly and frankly, too).

Additionally we are being spied on by our own state and especially the finance ministry, to which we are totally transparent now.

I hate to say it, but in principle we live in a total surveillance state, in parts already even in a polcie state. What is running now, by scale and reach has been the wet dream of the Eastgerman StaSi.

The economcial damage America does to Germany by the mere amount of business espionage, is immense, and it does not compare to what the German services are able to do in reverse. Germany is at the tremendously losing end of this game.

One would have expected that from China. From Russia. From others. But from our so-called closest allies and friends?

Like during the Snowden debate I also must criticise the Germans, however. Too long they acted as stupid idiots, indeed believing pathetic speeches and empty ohrasesd about fiendship and alliances, and trtusted in that. As a result the German economy is still extremely vulnerable to cyberwarfare and computer espionage, because it did not invest in hardening its computer infrastructure. It has started to do so since snowden'S revelationsa, but it lags behind by years. Politically, the German government simply never has cared for America spying on Germany'S public and private citizens, and by that it has violated a central demand of the German constitution that is also part in every minister's oath being sworn before parliament.

The Germans voluntarily had chosen to stay weak, and not to built the defence structures needed. While now they claim to do some more, most of that is abused for giving the state better surveillance of its own population, and making it more vulnerable to state intervention, and stealing private wealth. The finance ministry is the driving power behind all this, it is said off the record.

As I always say: the state - that includes explicitly Germany and the US as well - is a form of organised crime, one aspect of the Mafia mob.

[Otto Harkaman]

I am still amazed how "on it" William Gibson was with his novel "Neuromancer" (1984) about using the internet for economic espionage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuromancer

[Platapus]

We trust our allies because we collect on them.