Ferguson

[Oberon]

Alright, you chaps across the Pond have been sitting on this one for a while, so I'll break it out instead. I've been seeing pictures on social media since Sunday night, but the news outlets have been curiously quiet.
Well, the Beeb just put this out so I'll link it here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28764278

I'm reminded a lot of the 2011 London riots, although there were less guns involved admittedly, but still the spark behind it was similar and there was equal opportunism.
I don't recall baton rounds or tear gas being used though...but, like I said, more guns being thrown around over there so the police probably don't want to risk taking a softer approach and being sprayed by someone with an M16.

[Dread Knot]

At this point anyway, a lot of the facts remain in dispute. According to what information has been released by the police department involved, the victim started the confrontation by shoving the police officer back into his car, and then a struggle for the officer's gun ensued. The victim was likely shot once during this altercation. Then, the victim exited the car and was subsequently shot outside of same.

Witnesses (or people purporting to be witnesses) have claimed that the individual was some distance from the officer and had raised his hands when he was shot. He was unarmed.

The police department (Ferguson MO) has not released further statements. The FBI has stepped in and is actively soliciting cell-phone camera or other video footage from possible witnesses.

The young man's body lay in the street for some hours as the crime scene was processed, further provoking the crowd of onlookers. Another department (St. Louis County) was called in to conduct the investigation. A vigil put together for the night of the shooting turned violent and several businesses were looted, burned, etc.

There have been subsequent incidents in areas outside of the small municipality where the shooting occurred. A shoe store was looted in South St. Louis last night, many miles from the area of the shooting. The department is putting together an extra-patrol detail for the coming week. Also, the FBI is cautioning that a couple of large area shopping malls may be targeted for looting/vandalism.

The parents have appealed to the community with the message that they don't want their son's memory to be tarnished by the spectre of criminal acts and violence. Apparently he was preparing to attend college in the fall, and wanted to eventually go into business for himself.

[Oberon]

What makes me ponder is why the arrest was made in the first place, from what I've heard the two African-American men were walking in the street, rather than the sidewalk. I believe it's referred to as 'jay-walking' there, and yet this escalates into Brown being shot multiple times.
Continuing the parallel with the 2011 riots, Duggan was intercepted by armed police who were under the impression that Duggan was armed, and it went downhill from there really, Duggan was a known gang member and a court controversially would later declare the killing lawful.
Now, it's debatable in the UK whether the riots were caused directly by Duggans death or whether it was a pressure cooker situation and Duggans shooting was a millibar too far for the disaffected youth. Especially when one considers the varied make-up of those who were prosecuted after the riots, some were school teachers, I believe one was the daughter of a millionaire. Not the disaffected black youth that many people were expecting, that of Notting Hill and Brixton fame.

Coming back to the US, I think the stress points are acutely different but there are some similarities to be drawn, that of perhaps leftward leaning young individuals (and rightward leaning individuals so long as a Democrat is in power) who are concerned with the misuse of police force and the eagerness to resort to deadly force, particularly with the whole 'stand your ground' debacle not so long ago. However, equally in defence of the police force, they are much more likely to encounter a deadly situation than the police in the UK, where firearms are fewer and situations involving them are dealt with by specially trained firearms units (I believe SCO19) whereas every US trooper has the potential to encounter a situation that would be dealt with by specialised police forces in the UK (not that regular police forces don't encounter firearms in the UK, but I believe that the SOP is to withdraw to a safe distance and call for armed backup if a firearm is discharged at an unarmed officer, Jim might be able to correct me on this), so it is more likely that they will react with lethal force in what they determine to be self-preservation, even if in retrospect, the act was disproportionate to the situation.

Like you say, there's not much in the way of facts to go around at the moment, but the FBI had better run this one over with a fine-tooth comb because I have a feeling that things are going to come to a head in the US regarding the police and African-Americans in the near future, as well as the usage of firearms by the police. We have a similar problem brewing in the UK, only for us it's not just the relationship between ethnic groups and the police but also the relation between the public and the police. I was listening to a program on radio four earlier that described the British publics historical point of view of the police as being 'agents of the public' not 'agents of the government' and up until the 1980s the police were generally given a blank card by the public and trusted, but after the Thatcher government and the miners strike, with the rise of accountability, and numerous corruption scandals and other crises (the latest 'plebgate' scandal being just one of them) that the British public are steadily taking a more European viewpoint towards the police that shifts them from being agents of protection to agents of oppression, and that would honestly be a sad thing to happen, in my opinion anyway.

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by Oberon

that the British public are steadily taking a more European viewpoint towards the police that shifts them from being agents of protection to agents of oppression, and that would honestly be a sad thing to happen, in my opinion anyway.

Well I see 2 issues from a personal observation and what I get from the news.

1) Seems that the current generation seems to have less respect for authority figures wether it be police or the teacher in front of the class, they think they own the world and may do anything they please without fearing any form of consequences as they think they have the right to do so.

2) From the other side when it comes to the police it seems most of their busy work is nowadays is writing out fines to fill up the state's treasure chest. I know if you do nothing wrong you shouldn't worry but sometimes it happens unintentional and something really that doesn't compromise any safety of the public order but you're beeing treated like a criminal making a mountain out of a mole hil while all that is needed is a couple of words a nod and of you go. So I understand why a time this frustrates the public giving them a sense that they longer serve to protect the public but rather are being used to squeeze more money out of it.

my 2 cent and my apologies for rambling to much OT to which I have to add is:

It's a tragic incident, but more so as it's being used as an excuse for the mayority to go on a full crime/misbehave spree and wreck the whole area like the 2011 London riots and iirc the burning of Paris in 2005 when a group of 3 youngers of North-African origin who where chased by the police after a reported break in one of them fried himself in a high voltage electricity box in a power substation which seemed enough reason for the youth to burn cars for the next week or two.

I'm glad at least to hear the parents ask the mayority to quiet down as this is something their child never wanted to happen. We can only hope the investigation gets to the bottom of this.

[Jimbuna]

^ Can't argue with that.

[Dread Knot]

This strikes me as a case where one of those personal video recorders some police officers have on their person or in their squad car might have come in handy. They almost seem mandatory nowadays.

Sadly, there was another critical shooting by police in the same area a few hours ago:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...inue/13989945/

This black family's attempts to assist in the post riot clean up struck me as particularly classy.
http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dai..._white_man.php

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

Well I see 2 issues from a personal observation and what I get from the news.

1) Seems that the current generation seems to have less respect for authority figures wether it be police or the teacher in front of the class, they think they own the world and may do anything they please without fearing any form of consequences as they think they have the right to do so.

2) From the other side when it comes to the police it seems most of their busy work is nowadays is writing out fines to fill up the state's treasure chest. I know if you do nothing wrong you shouldn't worry but sometimes it happens unintentional and something really that doesn't compromise any safety of the public order but you're beeing treated like a criminal making a mountain out of a mole hil while all that is needed is a couple of words a nod and of you go. So I understand why a time this frustrates the public giving them a sense that they longer serve to protect the public but rather are being used to squeeze more money out of it.

my 2 cent and my apologies for rambling to much OT to which I have to add is:

It's a tragic incident, but more so as it's being used as an excuse for the mayority to go on a full crime/misbehave spree and wreck the whole area like the 2011 London riots and iirc the burning of Paris in 2005 when a group of 3 youngers of North-African origin who where chased by the police after a reported break in one of them fried himself in a high voltage electricity box in a power substation which seemed enough reason for the youth to burn cars for the next week or two.

I'm glad at least to hear the parents ask the mayority to quiet down as this is something their child never wanted to happen. We can only hope the investigation gets to the bottom of this.

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

^ Can't argue with that.

I also agree, but I have to ponder what has caused this move away from a respect for authority figures, is it a change in media that has encouraged us to challenge authority? Perhaps the increase (and I mean this in no anti-American way, bear with me) in media from the US which is broadcast across Europe and the import of the American culture? Now, before people get up in arms, one has to remember that the US was based around the challenging of authority and the belief that no one entity should have absolute control over the people, hence their inbuilt distrust of the government and, indeed, the police force. So, as we receive and digest that message in American media (I mean, how many times in US police dramas does the protagonist come up against a corrupt official high up in the bureaucracy that hinders their progress?) it has translated into our adaptation of that mistrust of authoritarian figures, which has in return lead to our media taking a more aggressive tone towards the police force, which the government has been happy to accept as it gives it free reign to impose its own agenda on the police forces which had previously been relatively free from government intervention (up until around the 1980s and the miners strike, really).
Equally though, there have been a number of embarrassing incidents for the police, which the media has seized on in its quest to find the worse news to broadcast for the British public (which brings me onto another point, when did it become fashionable for media outlets to focus purely on bad news stories?), for example, much has been made of plebgate, and the current scandal in Manchester, however a nice good news story happened in London the other day when the commissioner of the police interrupted an interview with BBC Radio London to chase down and arrest a couple of thieves. Now, while the front pages of several newspapers are happy to go with the Manchester scandal, I wonder how deeply buried inside the papers is the news story of Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe? Thus the problems are blown out of proportion and the merits are buried deep. This is not just a problem with the police, but also with the NHS (I mean, how often do newspapers print stories of people being saved by the NHS vs those being failed by it?) and Fire brigade...and just about every aspect of life in Britain, we have an unhealthy obsession with bad news and it is effecting our attitude towards those around us.

Getting back to America though, I came across this stat from CNN:



obviously take it with a pinch of salt but needless to say, true or not, it's existence is only going to further enflame the problem between 'Blacks' and the police in America, I don't see another 1992 happening but certainly there's going to be a stronger movement against what is perceived to be institutionalised racism.