What would you have done?

[GJO]

It is August 1940 and I am heading for my new base at St Nazaire having enjoyed a successful 38 day patrol out of Kiel - 11 ships sunk for around 33,000 GRT. It is foggy and I have just one torpedo left (an electric Type II) - so before the last few hundred kilometres needed to gain the relative safety of the French coast, I submerge to have a listen on the hydrophones - the hydrophone operator reports multiple contacts closing fast, I wait until the the contacts have started to overtake me, come up to periscope depth, raise the attack periscope and there, right in front of me (bearing of 351 degrees) looming out of the fog at a range of 2000 Metres, is the unmistakable silhouette of a Nelson class battleship - somehow, I was well inside the escort screen, and the only other visible targets were small merchants and a tramp steamer - I guess if I had been cool headed, I would have fired my last remaining torpedo at one of these smaller ships but in a mix of optimistic hope and fear, I rigged for silent running, let loose my torpedo at the battleship and dived to 150 metres straight on and straight away . . .

I registered the torpedo impact but by this time I was already down to 40 metres and I eventually crawled out from under the convoy, with no indication of pursuit, to arrive safely at St Nazaire the following morning.

Nothing appeared on my log to indicate that the battleship had been sunk so perhaps I should have used my torpedo more effectively but this might have taken time to set up and thereby increased the risk of subsequent detection. What would you have done? And, if only I still had more torpedoes left - firing all four forward torpedoes at the battleship could surely have sunk it . . .

[GreyBeard]

Originally Posted by GJO

.......if only I still had more torpedoes left......

Famous last words. Had I been in that situation I think I would have tried for a bow shot on the Nelson class or the next largest ship, but only as time and position permitted. In the absence of a perfect shot I probably would have just gone deep to avoid detection. Why a bow shot? Because I know that in GWX most ships can be sunk with a single bow shot, although I haven't had the opportunity to try that on a battleship yet.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by GreyBeard

Famous last words. Had I been in that situation I think I would have tried for a bow shot on the Nelson class or the next largest ship, but only as time and position permitted. In the absence of a perfect shot I probably would have just gone deep to avoid detection. Why a bow shot? Because I know that in GWX most ships can be sunk with a single bow shot, although I haven't had the opportunity to try that on a battleship yet.

yup.

I would have picked a little target that could be sunk in a single hit. tramp steamer - whatever.

It is better to get credit for sinking a 3000 ton ship than to get an unconfirmed "probable" single hit on a 60,000 ton ship.

In real life, you probably would have hit the battleship and caused minimal damage to the torpedo blister, the ship would have been placed in dry-dock for a short time, and still been out to sea again.

a tramp steamer carrying provisions of war, bullets, fuel, oil, kerosene, rubber - whatever... is useless to the enemy when it is on the sea floor.

[Gunnar]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

yup.

I would have picked a little target that could be sunk in a single hit. tramp steamer - whatever.

It is better to get credit for sinking a 3000 ton ship than to get an unconfirmed "probable" single hit on a 60,000 ton ship.

In real life, you probably would have hit the battleship and caused minimal damage to the torpedo blister, the ship would have been placed in dry-dock for a short time, and still been out to sea again.

a tramp steamer carrying provisions of war, bullets, fuel, oil, kerosene, rubber - whatever... is useless to the enemy when it is on the sea floor.

This might prove interesting when considering the possible damage caused to a capital ship by a single torpedo....

http://warships1discussionboards.yuk...y#.UtL_F5XuOic

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Gunnar

This might prove interesting when considering the possible damage caused to a capital ship by a single torpedo....

http://warships1discussionboards.yuk...y#.UtL_F5XuOic

Correct... but SH3 fails to consider such things.

Confirmed Sinking or the knowledge that you scored a hit but it is a hit that wont amount to a hill of beans in game?

I'll go for the confirmed sinking

[Raptor]

With only a single eel and surrounded by the escort screen, I would "run silent; run deep", and hope to remain undiscovered. An attack could be suicidal.

Why stir up a hornet's nest for a mere 1800 GRT? As has been noted, SH3 does not give credit for damaged vessels, only for those that sink. You are not likely to sink a BB with a single eel.

[GJO]

It is a pity that the game doesn't recognise damage - however one thought that I had was that a torpedo exploding under one of the magazines could have been lucky with an older battleship and the other possibility being that it could have disabled it which, in real life could have been a valuable result - in a subsequent patrol, I intercepted a convoy and sunk three ships then fired my last stern torpedo at a "Large Cargo" before diving deep and crawling away from the expected hunt by the escorting warships - 24 hours later the convoy had gone and I am returning to base on the surface when the watch officer spots a ship to the NE - it looks like the same "Large Cargo" now stopped and very low in the water - the wind had dropped and the convoy and escorts had all gone - so I moved in to finish it with the deck gun - something I might not have achieved had it been a battleship!

[Leandros]

Originally Posted by GJO

It is August 1940 and I am heading for my new base at St Nazaire having enjoyed a successful 38 day patrol out of Kiel - 11 ships sunk for around 33,000 GRT. It is foggy and I have just one torpedo left (an electric Type II) - so before the last few hundred kilometres needed to gain the relative safety of the French coast, I submerge to have a listen on the hydrophones - the hydrophone operator reports multiple contacts closing fast, I wait until the the contacts have started to overtake me, come up to periscope depth, raise the attack periscope and there, right in front of me (bearing of 351 degrees) looming out of the fog at a range of 2000 Metres, is the unmistakable silhouette of a Nelson class battleship - somehow, I was well inside the escort screen, and the only other visible targets were small merchants and a tramp steamer - I guess if I had been cool headed, I would have fired my last remaining torpedo at one of these smaller ships but in a mix of optimistic hope and fear, I rigged for silent running, let loose my torpedo at the battleship and dived to 150 metres straight on and straight away . . .

I registered the torpedo impact but by this time I was already down to 40 metres and I eventually crawled out from under the convoy, with no indication of pursuit, to arrive safely at St Nazaire the following morning.

Nothing appeared on my log to indicate that the battleship had been sunk so perhaps I should have used my torpedo more effectively but this might have taken time to set up and thereby increased the risk of subsequent detection. What would you have done? And, if only I still had more torpedoes left - firing all four forward torpedoes at the battleship could surely have sunk it . . .

Since there is some mix-up here of game and RL points I might as well do it like that, too. Firstly, as one writer states, I don't feel there is a great difference between a target registered as sunk or not. It's a game, so the satisfaction of good result should count as much as what you are credited. You can always brag about your feat in the night club the next night and nobody would blame you for not going for the merchant instead.

A loaded merchant a more valid target than a wounded Nelson? That may be so but your superiors would certainly appreciate the opportunity of some propaganda subjects. If not sunk, the British would of course deny everything...

What it cooks down to is this: You are standing in front of Dønitz the day after arriving back in St. Lorient. When you are airing your doubts to der Alte as to whether your decision was the correct one, he says:

"Captain, you did the very right thing. But, why did you not surface immediately after and report the contact and position, and that you might have damaged it, with a possible loss of speed. We could have sent out our Küstenfliegers to look for him......After all, you were only a day out of St. Lorient."

Fred

[GJO]

Originally Posted by Leandros

Since there is some mix-up here of game and RL points I might as well do it like that, too. Firstly, as one writer states, I don't feel there is a great difference between a target registered as sunk or not. It's a game, so the satisfaction of good result should count as much as what you are credited. You can always brag about your feat in the night club the next night and nobody would blame you for not going for the merchant instead.

A loaded merchant a more valid target than a wounded Nelson? That may be so but your superiors would certainly appreciate the opportunity of some propaganda subjects. If not sunk, the British would of course deny everything...

What it cooks down to is this: You are standing in front of Dønitz the day after arriving back in St. Lorient. When you are airing your doubts to der Alte as to whether your decision was the correct one, he says:

"Captain, you did the very right thing. But, why did you not surface immediately after and report the contact and position, and that you might have damaged it, with a possible loss of speed. We could have sent out our Küstenfliegers to look for him......After all, you were only a day out of St. Lorient."

Fred

I did think on those lines - in hindsight, I could have turned on a parallel course and broken the surface (with decks awash) just long enough to transmit. In real life, the battleship would not have been able to train it's main or secondary armament before I could disappear under the surface again - but it would have been a hell of a risk for the boat and crew . . .

I still consider myself lucky to have escaped - the hydrophone operator was reporting sound contacts from one of escorts for hours after the attack.

[Leandros]

Originally Posted by GJO

I did think on those lines - in hindsight, I could have turned on a parallel course and broken the surface (with decks awash) just long enough to transmit. In real life, the battleship would not have been able to train it's main or secondary armament before I could disappear under the surface again - but it would have been a hell of a risk for the boat and crew . . .

I still consider myself lucky to have escaped - the hydrophone operator was reporting sound contacts from one of escorts for hours after the attack.

Well, Dønitz (...I...) wouldn't have expected you to expose yourself that early, but rather immediately after having disengaged....I think......

That said, I have a distinct feeling that the gun crews on the enemy ships are rather too quick...and accurate. Just my opinion.

Fred

[GJO]

My wife thinks I should be doing something 'more appropriate' than playing games at my age but I do find SH3 with GWX totally addictive.

The game never fails to surprise - for example, in an early patrol crossing the North Sea en route to the North Atlantic (for reference just after the invasion of Norway), the Watch Officer reported spotting an aircraft on the horizon - I looked through the binoculars and could see that it was either performing aerobatics or attacking something on the surface. I decided to investigate by altering course towards it and shortly afterwards the Watch Officer reported 'ship spotted' - as I got closer, I could see what appeared to be a Ju 88 (or it could have been an Me 210) attacking a large Norwegian merchant - the latter was already on fire and stopped in the water. As I approached the aircraft flew off back towards the Norwegian coast leaving me to sink the ship by gunfire - an easy and unexpected prize!

I think the game also has educational advantages, since starting to play, I have re-read Otto Kretschmer's biography, 'The Golden Horseshoe' and am now reading that of Captain Johnny Walker, 'The Fighting Captain' which was bought for Christmas thanks to some comments made in these forums.

[Leandros]

Originally Posted by GJO

My wife thinks I should be doing something 'more appropriate' than playing games at my age but I do find SH3 with GWX totally addictive..

He-he, good to hear it's not just me. I find it quite addictive, too but it would have been nice to have a wolf pack capacity.

Originally Posted by GJO

The game never fails to surprise - for example, in an early patrol crossing the North Sea en route to the North Atlantic (for reference just after the invasion of Norway), the Watch Officer reported spotting an aircraft on the horizon - I looked through the binoculars and could see that it was either performing aerobatics or attacking something on the surface. I decided to investigate by altering course towards it and shortly afterwards the Watch Officer reported 'ship spotted' - as I got closer, I could see what appeared to be a Ju 88 (or it could have been an Me 210) attacking a large Norwegian merchant - the latter was already on fire and stopped in the water. As I approached the aircraft flew off back towards the Norwegian coast leaving me to sink the ship by gunfire - an easy and unexpected prize!..

Good for you that you had the gun as there were extreme problems with the German torpedoes in that campaign......

Originally Posted by GJO

I think the game also has educational advantages, since starting to play, I have re-read Otto Kretschmer's biography, 'The Golden Horseshoe' and am now reading that of Captain Johnny Walker, 'The Fighting Captain' which was bought for Christmas thanks to some comments made in these forums.

I find it very interesting to compare the game with the actual history. As I have written a book on Operation Sea Lion I have made a few scenarios where I have put in some elements of the German planning for that operation. Many historians think the German U-boat fleet would have meant little in that operation but Dønitz actually planned to use all the 44 boats available at the time - not counting those temporarily out of service. I have looked through all the boats and captains available in the period Aug/Sep 1940 - it is quite impressive, they had already racked up a decent score and experience.

Another common misunderstanding is that U-boats couldn't/shouldn't operate in the English Channel. This stems from the impression that it is too shallow and the problem with British minefields, taken from the fact that 3 German boats were sunk there early in the war. In 1940, however, the routes into the Channel were fairly safe along the mineswept French coast in the East and covered by the Luftwaffe in the West. In the Summer of 1940 all Royal Navy daytime operations in the Channel without fighter cover were restricted due to their bad experiences with German bombers in the previous months. As we know RAF was notoriusly bad in providing such. This restriction was valid till 1944.

After all, the Channel has an average depth of 120 meters and in the deepest places 200 m. Even the Eastern approach is almost 50 m. deep in the middle. So, also in the game it is no problem to go through it during this period. Any RN traffic near by you, if you cling to the coast, is unrealistic as the German coastal batteries had full radar coverage in Sept. 1940. RN had great respect for those.

Personally, I am doing it quite easy for myself as I play on 74 % reality. I don't think there was ever as good a torpedo officer in the German navy as the one on my boat. WTH, it's a game and it shall be a little fun, not too serious.

Fred

Below:

Some pictures from a Sea Lion scenario - in the ten days before the operation Luftwaffe should go after the RN in its bases. This was never done in RL. Portsmouth bombed.

Last picture: Small part of an SHIII invasion scenario.

[GJO]

It is perhaps fortunate that, in real life, the Nazi war campaigns were being directed overall by someone who was no longer capable of rational deliberation. History shows us how the human brain so often provides unpredictable outcomes.

[Kielhauler1961]

The agony of choice...I know that feeling.

A similar thing has just happened to one of my skippers, in a Type II NE of Aberdeen in September 1939.

We had one torpedo left (T1) and were perfectly lined up on a fat merchant plodding south towards my cross-hairs when my soundman picks up multiple warship echoes off to the south at about 18k, closing fast.

We surfaced and spun the boat towards the estimated track and were rewarded (teased?) a short while later by the majestic sight of the Home Fleet racing directly across my bows at a little over 5-6,000m.

They were led by HMS Hood - the first time I have ever seen her in the flesh in eight years of playing this game - and she was followed by a Renown class, an Illustrious class, both the Nelsons, three Southamptons and about 8 destroyers, all doing 25kts and not keeping a very good lookout.

I was in a perfect shooting position and still had the large merchant in sight at 7,000m astern of me!

So, a high probability of success against a large merchant or a slim chance of glory...?

"Target leading warship - LOS!"

The torpedo hissed away at 40kts and I turned the boat and made off on the surface at high speed into the night.

Dunno what happened to the torpedo but it didn't go bang (mag, 11.6m, shade over 5,300m when fired) and the warships continued merrily on their way, as did one lucky merchant.

All I had to show for the juiciest encounter I have ever had with SH/GWX was an 'enemy contact report' which BdU kindly acknowledged about five hours later.

Oh well, maybe next time. If anyone would like the position, course and time of this contact, pm me, if GWX would replicate it.

KH