How realistic would it be...

coinbird · 12-03-13, 10:16 AM

Hello, long time lurker here.

I have been trying to draw the line between what a realistic way to play is vs. doing everything a captain himself would of delegated to other people anyway in order to play in the most immersed way possible. For example, this would include not micro managing crew member stations or manually firing the deck gun (I assume). But what about firing solutions? Would the tactical officer only do that? Would the captain relay the information and co-ordinates and he would calculate that? So would letting him auto-calculate actually be more realistic? I know a lot of captains here enjoy doing that themselves over having the computer do it.

mrbannon · 12-03-13, 10:56 AM

I would guess you're right. However, I think the captain is the one to use the attack periscope, so he would be doing firing solution calculations (I think...I don't really know).

Frankly, I'd love to turn command over to my first officer and go to bed. He could wake me if something happens.

the dark knight · 12-03-13, 04:19 PM

To answer your question, not really. Some captains might have made the calculations on their own. How an attack in real life worked was like this: captain would call to action stations. Then the captain, and one to two officers would come into the conning tower. One officer (the torpedo control officer) would occupy his station at the firing solution computer. The captain would watch the target and convey target speed, range, and heading as well as the U-boat's own heading and speed verbally to the TCO. The TCO would enter these into the firing solution computer with the dials and the computer would spit out a solution. From there the solution was sent into the specified torpedo tubes. The tubes could be fired manually in the torpedo rooms, or they could be fired from the conning tower computer. (more info on how the tubes and calculator worked here http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/en/u-boats/...german-u-boats )

If you have the movie Das Boot, during the convoy attack scene you can see this series of events unfolding. If you do not have Das Boot, I highly recommend you get a copy and watch it. They used many U-boat crew members as consultants, and had the interior of the U-boat recreated nut and bolt from one of the original ship yards.

Many here like to do the solutions themselves. It makes it a bit more challenging. Was it historically accurate for the captain to calculate the solution? No, especially since there was a computer, not a human, doing the calculations.

Svonne · 12-04-13, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the dark knight

To answer your question, not really. Some captains might have made the calculations on their own. How an attack in real life worked was like this: captain would call to action stations. Then the captain, and one to two officers would come into the conning tower. One officer (the torpedo control officer) would occupy his station at the firing solution computer. The captain would watch the target and convey target speed, range, and heading as well as the U-boat's own heading and speed verbally to the TCO. The TCO would enter these into the firing solution computer with the dials and the computer would spit out a solution. From there the solution was sent into the specified torpedo tubes. The tubes could be fired manually in the torpedo rooms, or they could be fired from the conning tower computer. (more info on how the tubes and calculator worked here http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/en/u-boats/...german-u-boats )

If you have the movie Das Boot, during the convoy attack scene you can see this series of events unfolding. If you do not have Das Boot, I highly recommend you get a copy and watch it. They used many U-boat crew members as consultants, and had the interior of the U-boat recreated nut and bolt from one of the original ship yards.

Many here like to do the solutions themselves. It makes it a bit more challenging. Was it historically accurate for the captain to calculate the solution? No, especially since there was a computer, not a human, doing the calculations.

Thanks for posting that website. Haven't seen it before and really enjoyed the pics along with explanations.

GoldenRivet · 12-04-13, 03:36 PM

If im not mistaken, surface attacks were made through the UZO by the 1st watch officer with the captain standing by

Sailor Steve · 12-04-13, 07:28 PM

You are not mistaken, and that's something else Das Boot got right. During the night surface attack the 1WO is doing the calling.

Admiral Halsey · 12-04-13, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

You are not mistaken, and that's something else Das Boot got right.

You know i'm more surprised by what Das Boot got wrong at this point.

Sailor Steve · 12-04-13, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral Halsey

You know i'm more surprised by what Das Boot got wrong at this point.

Well, I figure they got so much wrong that pointing out what they got right is the easy part.

nataraj · 12-05-13, 09:07 AM

I have always assumed that being a commander in a war is less a matter of personal preferences (how to do things) or outstanding physical properties (eyesight, strength,...) but of what we'd call "management skills" i.e. good leadership, sound judgement and taking the right decisions - decisions that would then be executed through well established routines with roles and responsibilities clearly laid out.

The "Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual" devoted Chapter 4 to a description of The-Torpedo Fire Control Party and Chapter 5 to the Duties of the Fire Control Party.

Given that the manual was issued in 1950 and by the U.S. Navy (and not 1939 by the Kriegsmarine) there might be quite a few differences, but still one gets the picture of who does what ...

Of course, a good commander always knows what is going on and performs reasonable checks. Doing a task himself if there was an assigned officer or crew should have been a very rare exception ... (or an insult to the officer/crew)

My personal guess is that the most important thing the commanding officer would have to do himself would be to verify the validity (flag, ship type) of the target, select the attack strategy (torpedo/gun, submerged/surfaced, course, attack position), and give the command to fire. (now that would not make a very exciting "video game" would it? that's why in SH3 we get to do all the tasks ourselves, if we so desire

)

regards
Helmut

the dark knight · 12-05-13, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Svonne

Thanks for posting that website. Haven't seen it before and really enjoyed the pics along with explanations.

You are welcome! It opened my eyes to a great many issues we see in hollywood regarding U-boats. First and foremost being air bubbles escaping when a torpedo is launched.

Gustav Schiebert · 12-06-13, 03:33 AM

The only real skill the commander bought during the attack was translating what was seen in a 2-3 sec glance of the periscope into an attack plan. It meant identifying target direction and speed, partly through AOB calculators and the like but more often than not though gut feeling.

The skilled commanders were the ones who manoeuvred their boats into position well; since most shots were taken at under 1,500m there was no 'marksmanship' to speak of. I suspect as computer game players with free torpedoes and save games we are more prepared to take longer shots, and have an unrealistic appreciation of how close real commanders got.

If you want a full-realism experience then I recommend the OLC Gold mod. It accurately reflects the role of other crewmen in doing the work for you, so that your job is just to assess the firing data (and plug it into the computer, as you have no-one to do that for you). Other players might be able to recommend more challenging and less realistic ways of doing the calculations yourself.

Gunnar · 12-08-13, 11:57 AM

In terms of getting a feel for realism and such like, might I suggest the book by Wolfgang Hirschfeld, "The Secret Diary of A U-Boat".

WH was a radio operator who kept an accurate diary of life on board a U-Boat and his descriptions of what he witnessed the Commander and other officers doing is very vivid indeed.

Perhaps as well, I could recommend the book, "U-Boat 977" by Heinz Schaffer for it's descriptions of the realities of commanding a U-Boat.

12-03-13, 10:16 AM	#1
coinbird Watch Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 17 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	How realistic would it be... Hello, long time lurker here. I have been trying to draw the line between what a realistic way to play is vs. doing everything a captain himself would of delegated to other people anyway in order to play in the most immersed way possible. For example, this would include not micro managing crew member stations or manually firing the deck gun (I assume). But what about firing solutions? Would the tactical officer only do that? Would the captain relay the information and co-ordinates and he would calculate that? So would letting him auto-calculate actually be more realistic? I know a lot of captains here enjoy doing that themselves over having the computer do it.

12-03-13, 04:19 PM	#3
the dark knight Bosun Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Blue Springs, MO Posts: 64 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	To answer your question, not really. Some captains might have made the calculations on their own. How an attack in real life worked was like this: captain would call to action stations. Then the captain, and one to two officers would come into the conning tower. One officer (the torpedo control officer) would occupy his station at the firing solution computer. The captain would watch the target and convey target speed, range, and heading as well as the U-boat's own heading and speed verbally to the TCO. The TCO would enter these into the firing solution computer with the dials and the computer would spit out a solution. From there the solution was sent into the specified torpedo tubes. The tubes could be fired manually in the torpedo rooms, or they could be fired from the conning tower computer. (more info on how the tubes and calculator worked here http://www.ubootwaffe.pl/en/u-boats/...german-u-boats ) If you have the movie Das Boot, during the convoy attack scene you can see this series of events unfolding. If you do not have Das Boot, I highly recommend you get a copy and watch it. They used many U-boat crew members as consultants, and had the interior of the U-boat recreated nut and bolt from one of the original ship yards. Many here like to do the solutions themselves. It makes it a bit more challenging. Was it historically accurate for the captain to calculate the solution? No, especially since there was a computer, not a human, doing the calculations. __________________ Life is a matter of luck, and the odds in favor of success are no way enhanced by extreme caution. - Erich Topp Last edited by the dark knight; 12-03-13 at 06:22 PM.

12-04-13, 03:36 PM	#5
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	If im not mistaken, surface attacks were made through the UZO by the 1st watch officer with the captain standing by __________________

12-04-13, 07:28 PM	#6
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	You are not mistaken, and that's something else Das Boot got right. During the night surface attack the 1WO is doing the calling. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

12-06-13, 03:33 AM	#11
Gustav Schiebert Sparky Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: AM52 Posts: 151 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	The only real skill the commander bought during the attack was translating what was seen in a 2-3 sec glance of the periscope into an attack plan. It meant identifying target direction and speed, partly through AOB calculators and the like but more often than not though gut feeling. The skilled commanders were the ones who manoeuvred their boats into position well; since most shots were taken at under 1,500m there was no 'marksmanship' to speak of. I suspect as computer game players with free torpedoes and save games we are more prepared to take longer shots, and have an unrealistic appreciation of how close real commanders got. If you want a full-realism experience then I recommend the OLC Gold mod. It accurately reflects the role of other crewmen in doing the work for you, so that your job is just to assess the firing data (and plug it into the computer, as you have no-one to do that for you). Other players might be able to recommend more challenging and less realistic ways of doing the calculations yourself. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] GWX 3 + OLC Gold + 100% Realism + Commander "Attack! Always attack!"

12-03-13, 10:56 AM	#2
mrbannon Watch Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 26 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	I would guess you're right. However, I think the captain is the one to use the attack periscope, so he would be doing firing solution calculations (I think...I don't really know). Frankly, I'd love to turn command over to my first officer and go to bed. He could wake me if something happens.

12-05-13, 09:07 AM	#9
nataraj Watch Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 26 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I have always assumed that being a commander in a war is less a matter of personal preferences (how to do things) or outstanding physical properties (eyesight, strength,...) but of what we'd call "management skills" i.e. good leadership, sound judgement and taking the right decisions - decisions that would then be executed through well established routines with roles and responsibilities clearly laid out. The "Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual" devoted Chapter 4 to a description of The-Torpedo Fire Control Party and Chapter 5 to the Duties of the Fire Control Party. Given that the manual was issued in 1950 and by the U.S. Navy (and not 1939 by the Kriegsmarine) there might be quite a few differences, but still one gets the picture of who does what ... Of course, a good commander always knows what is going on and performs reasonable checks. Doing a task himself if there was an assigned officer or crew should have been a very rare exception ... (or an insult to the officer/crew) My personal guess is that the most important thing the commanding officer would have to do himself would be to verify the validity (flag, ship type) of the target, select the attack strategy (torpedo/gun, submerged/surfaced, course, attack position), and give the command to fire. (now that would not make a very exciting "video game" would it? that's why in SH3 we get to do all the tasks ourselves, if we so desire ) regards Helmut

12-08-13, 11:57 AM	#12
Gunnar Watch Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: England Posts: 15 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	In terms of getting a feel for realism and such like, might I suggest the book by Wolfgang Hirschfeld, "The Secret Diary of A U-Boat". WH was a radio operator who kept an accurate diary of life on board a U-Boat and his descriptions of what he witnessed the Commander and other officers doing is very vivid indeed. Perhaps as well, I could recommend the book, "U-Boat 977" by Heinz Schaffer for it's descriptions of the realities of commanding a U-Boat.