Largest Game map I have ever seen!

eddie · 11-09-13, 01:52 PM

Matrix Games has just released World in Flames, a pc version of a famous board game covering WWII. It covers the whole war, ETO, PTO and everything in between. So you get a map of the whole world to play in. Now, for those whole like to have a printed map, to plan your moves, they are selling a map set of the whole world already printed up for you. Better plan on building an extra large room on your house, because this map when all set up is 9 feet high and 21 feet long!! (2.7 meters X 6.4 meters)

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/...lames.Map.Pack

Skybird · 11-09-13, 02:21 PM

WiF - finally released? For sure...? Really...??? After so many many many years...???

The sim should have 70200 hexes, that makes it indeed the winner over the so far biggest map I heard of, Modern Campaigns: Danube '85 with I think 65000 hexes covering the front in Central Europe.

Skybird · 11-09-13, 02:23 PM

No AI.

Gulp.

eddie · 11-09-13, 03:33 PM

How do you play single player with no AI? I followed along in their forums and guys are playing single player but have no clue as to how you can with no AI?

Raptor1 · 11-09-13, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie

How do you play single player with no AI? I followed along in their forums and guys are playing single player but have no clue as to how you can with no AI?

There are people who play war games solitaire, against themselves. I suppose the object is to see how the battle would turn out rather than to achieve victory against an opponent, though I've never had much interest in playing so myself.

Skybird · 11-09-13, 03:47 PM

You play against yourself, switching sides.

Actually, with paper-on-table cosims in the 80s and 90s, that was nothing unusual. I did that myself a lot. With many cosims, it worked not bad that way.

It's just that I do not need an expensive computer interface for that, at least if I have a free table left. Even less so when there are alternative titles. War in the East, a monster-sized cosim, can be had in Germany for 5 Euros. The game is more complex than War in the Pacific, they say.

I recall that when I visited their forums occasionally, years ago, they indicated that the problems with creating a competent AI in this title were far more complex and difficult to solve than expected. I seem to recall now that they announced back then already to release the game without AI first, and focussing on the AI later.

Skybird · 11-09-13, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

There are people who play war games solitaire, against themselves. I suppose the object is to see how the battle would turn out rather than to achieve victory against an opponent, though I've never had much interest in playing so myself.

One has to remember that cosims have very trict and complex rules that decide how to determine a battle outcome. You are always submitted to the probability tables, no matter which outcome you desire. With some discipline you can indeed learn to act in conformity with for example the expected strategic doctrine of Soviet forces rolling into Western Europe. The solitaire experience is much different with cosims, than with other kind of games.

There is no point in playing chess against yourself. With cosims, that is very different. And you can get surprised by the going of the action, yes, although you believe you know your planes for the other side.

eddie · 11-09-13, 04:21 PM

I understand what you are saying as to how yould play like that, but agree with Raptor, doesn't sound like something i would like to do either.

Skybird · 11-09-13, 05:16 PM

It was another time.

However, for computers, there are good cosims both with traditional hexes and without (vector-based, and simulation based) today, with AI and all you can desire. Even my beloved Steel Beasts can be played from map view, as a cosim, exclusively. Regarding classical cosims, there also were some titles that were specially designed to be played alone. Ambush! on my mind, or Tokyo Express, which I have reviewed here at subsim some years ago. You can find it in the reviews section, I assume. Very elegant game design, imo: simple, but allowing surprising depth. In that game, single play was the rule. Playing against another player was the option that required "modded" extra rules.

Always liked that kind of games. Playing these wargames in Germany of that time, however, earned you critical views and angry comments. Difficult to find opponents and coordinating time and space options with them.

eddie · 11-10-13, 12:23 AM

I agree Skybird, there has been some great single player sims in the past, but seem's like its getting harder all the time to find one with a good AI now days.

Skybird · 11-10-13, 10:15 AM

Just for the sake of completeness: the map from Danube '85. Click into it once it has loaded.

http://www.hist-sdc.com/downloads/mc.../D85_stock.gif

Sailor Steve · 11-10-13, 10:40 AM

I played the original - once. As I recall we had a player for each participating nation. The main hurdle for the Axis side is to keep the US out of the war for as long as possible. Each action has the potential of influencing US entry, so everything must be considered carefully.

At the time WIF made Axis and Allies look like a kiddie game. I don't know how much A&A has evolved over the years, but WIF is still the biggest, most elaborate board war game I've ever seen.

Skybird · 11-10-13, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

but WIF is still the biggest, most elaborate board war game I've ever seen.

There is always some bigger fish.

"Europa" by Game Designer'S Workshop GDW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(wargame)
http://hmsgrd.com/wordpress/?page_id=20

Russian front: http://hmsgrd.com/images/consimworld...he%20south.jpg (from the second link above, many more pics in there)
And all of Europe: http://hmsgrd.com/images/grandeuropa%20_south.jpg

The "Strike" series by Victory Games VG also was not really small. "Gulf Strike" brought me to breaking point.

I would wish for a PC conversion of the original "Flight Leader" (Avalon Hill). I loved that one.

TorpX · 11-10-13, 07:17 PM

I also used to play certain wargames against myself, but that was a long time ago before computer games. To me, an involved and expensive game like WiF, without an AI is just unacceptable.

Take War in the Pacific, for example. Going by what is said on the forums, many of the more devoted players consider games against the AI to be of little value, and only a human opponent will really offer a worthwhile challenge. I don't disagree with their assessment of the AI, but in a game which has the potential of outlasting many marriages, how sensible is it to expect an opponent to will actually finish a game? Furthermore, the subordinate AI offers little help to the player, and more or less forces him to micro-manage everything to an absurd degree.

IMO, games of this nature need the strongest possible AI.

Skybird · 11-10-13, 07:34 PM

The strongest possible AI. Well, that is what they struggle to achieve in WiF. Since years. I know that they said long time ago they want to implement AI later. I do not know whether that has changed - it has been a long time, a very long time, since I checked their forums last time. Two years or so.

11-09-13, 01:52 PM	#1
eddie Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,023 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	Largest Game map I have ever seen! Matrix Games has just released World in Flames, a pc version of a famous board game covering WWII. It covers the whole war, ETO, PTO and everything in between. So you get a map of the whole world to play in. Now, for those whole like to have a printed map, to plan your moves, they are selling a map set of the whole world already printed up for you. Better plan on building an extra large room on your house, because this map when all set up is 9 feet high and 21 feet long!! (2.7 meters X 6.4 meters) http://www.matrixgames.com/products/...lames.Map.Pack __________________ Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm kind to everyone, but when someone is unkind to me, weak is not what you are going to remember about me. Al Capone

11-09-13, 02:21 PM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,616 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	WiF - finally released? For sure...? Really...??? After so many many many years...??? The sim should have 70200 hexes, that makes it indeed the winner over the so far biggest map I heard of, Modern Campaigns: Danube '85 with I think 65000 hexes covering the front in Central Europe. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-09-13, 02:23 PM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,616 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	No AI. Gulp. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-09-13, 03:33 PM	#4
eddie Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,023 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	How do you play single player with no AI? I followed along in their forums and guys are playing single player but have no clue as to how you can with no AI? __________________ Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm kind to everyone, but when someone is unkind to me, weak is not what you are going to remember about me. Al Capone

11-09-13, 03:47 PM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,616 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	You play against yourself, switching sides. Actually, with paper-on-table cosims in the 80s and 90s, that was nothing unusual. I did that myself a lot. With many cosims, it worked not bad that way. It's just that I do not need an expensive computer interface for that, at least if I have a free table left. Even less so when there are alternative titles. War in the East, a monster-sized cosim, can be had in Germany for 5 Euros. The game is more complex than War in the Pacific, they say. I recall that when I visited their forums occasionally, years ago, they indicated that the problems with creating a competent AI in this title were far more complex and difficult to solve than expected. I seem to recall now that they announced back then already to release the game without AI first, and focussing on the AI later. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-09-13, 04:21 PM	#8
eddie Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,023 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	I understand what you are saying as to how yould play like that, but agree with Raptor, doesn't sound like something i would like to do either. __________________ Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm kind to everyone, but when someone is unkind to me, weak is not what you are going to remember about me. Al Capone

11-09-13, 05:16 PM	#9
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,616 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	It was another time. However, for computers, there are good cosims both with traditional hexes and without (vector-based, and simulation based) today, with AI and all you can desire. Even my beloved Steel Beasts can be played from map view, as a cosim, exclusively. Regarding classical cosims, there also were some titles that were specially designed to be played alone. Ambush! on my mind, or Tokyo Express, which I have reviewed here at subsim some years ago. You can find it in the reviews section, I assume. Very elegant game design, imo: simple, but allowing surprising depth. In that game, single play was the rule. Playing against another player was the option that required "modded" extra rules. Always liked that kind of games. Playing these wargames in Germany of that time, however, earned you critical views and angry comments. Difficult to find opponents and coordinating time and space options with them. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-10-13, 12:23 AM	#10
eddie Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,023 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	I agree Skybird, there has been some great single player sims in the past, but seem's like its getting harder all the time to find one with a good AI now days. __________________ Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm kind to everyone, but when someone is unkind to me, weak is not what you are going to remember about me. Al Capone

11-10-13, 10:15 AM	#11
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,616 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Just for the sake of completeness: the map from Danube '85. Click into it once it has loaded. http://www.hist-sdc.com/downloads/mc.../D85_stock.gif __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-10-13, 10:40 AM	#12
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I played the original - once. As I recall we had a player for each participating nation. The main hurdle for the Axis side is to keep the US out of the war for as long as possible. Each action has the potential of influencing US entry, so everything must be considered carefully. At the time WIF made Axis and Allies look like a kiddie game. I don't know how much A&A has evolved over the years, but WIF is still the biggest, most elaborate board war game I've ever seen. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

11-10-13, 07:17 PM	#14
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	I also used to play certain wargames against myself, but that was a long time ago before computer games. To me, an involved and expensive game like WiF, without an AI is just unacceptable. Take War in the Pacific, for example. Going by what is said on the forums, many of the more devoted players consider games against the AI to be of little value, and only a human opponent will really offer a worthwhile challenge. I don't disagree with their assessment of the AI, but in a game which has the potential of outlasting many marriages, how sensible is it to expect an opponent to will actually finish a game? Furthermore, the subordinate AI offers little help to the player, and more or less forces him to micro-manage everything to an absurd degree. IMO, games of this nature need the strongest possible AI.

11-10-13, 07:34 PM	#15
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,616 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The strongest possible AI. Well, that is what they struggle to achieve in WiF. Since years. I know that they said long time ago they want to implement AI later. I do not know whether that has changed - it has been a long time, a very long time, since I checked their forums last time. Two years or so. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.